Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

[neeneko]

This kids is why I refuse to argue Economics with anyone without a graduate degree in Economics

Yeah, but even within Ms/PhD economists, you get a lot of "what, you only studied XYZ, you can:t question me on REAL economics!". A lot of silos with each thinking THEY represent the true core of economics by which all others derive. Kinda funny to watch actually.

[noblepa]

Gotcha beat. I watch Nancy Grace.

Why?

She is one of the nastiest people on TV. Even when she isn't talking, she just looks like a nasty person.

Back on her old show, she never saw a pretty young white girl who had been abducted that she wouldn't champion, nor a black child that she would.

[Patagoniagirl]

Gotcha beat. I watch Nancy Grace.

Why?

She is one of the nastiest people on TV. Even when she isn't talking, she just looks like a nasty person.

Back on her old show, she never saw a pretty young white girl who had been abducted that she wouldn't champion, nor a black child that she would.

I was being facetious. Grace is a liar, and a disgrace to lawyers and women and human beings.

[somerset]

This kids is why I refuse to argue Economics with anyone without a graduate degree in Economics

Does a graduate degree in Meteorology count?

[Tiredretiredlawyer]

Why the hell not?

[Gregg]

This kids is why I refuse to argue Economics with anyone without a graduate degree in Economics

Yeah, but even within Ms/PhD economists, you get a lot of "what, you only studied XYZ, you can:t question me on REAL economics!". A lot of silos with each thinking THEY represent the true core of economics by which all others derive. Kinda funny to watch actually.

All true. I went to England to learn Economics from borderline Communists. Convent Garden, a part of London associated with LSE is sometimes referred to as "Red Square" with some justification. I left there a Conservative but I hope they're all now proud of the Socialist do gooder I've blossomed into.

I really, truth be told, would just about be able to follow a serious discussion of most Economics topics by people who work in the various fields, I only know a bit compared to people who don't have a graduate degree in Economics. I read the Federal Reserve journals just to keep myself honest and will do some deeper reading from time to time if I see something interesting. It's been 25 years, after all and I haven't worked in field.

Now, you wanna talk about building cars, I feel like I could keep up with anyone anywhere anytime.

Teaching Dachshunds how to fly, well, that's another story altogether.

[neeneko]

All true. I went to England to learn Economics from borderline Communists. Convent Garden, a part of London associated with LSE is sometimes referred to as "Red Square" with some justification. I left there a Conservative but I hope they're all now proud of the Socialist do gooder I've blossomed into.

I really, truth be told, would just about be able to follow a serious discussion of most Economics topics by people who work in the various fields, I only know a bit compared to people who don't have a graduate degree in Economics. I read the Federal Reserve journals just to keep myself honest and will do some deeper reading from time to time if I see something interesting. It's been 25 years, after all and I haven't worked in field.

TBH, it is something I have to keep an eye on myself to be careful about. My own background is AI, but I work with systems modeling which includes economics as one of the models. Thus I lack the general academic background but have a good understanding of the particular stuff we do and how it interacts with the whole system. I can sometimes bring a lot to a conversation, but also have some pretty big gaps when it comes to economic models that only interact with themselves and the depth there... and gah it can sometimes be hard to keep that in mind when a conversation is adjacent to my domain!

Now, you wanna talk about building cars, I feel like I could keep up with anyone anywhere anytime.

Heh. About two years ago I changed my own oil for the first time and was proud of myself. That makes me an expert, right?

[somerset]

All true. I went to England to learn Economics from borderline Communists. Convent Garden, a part of London associated with LSE is sometimes referred to as "Red Square" with some justification. I left there a Conservative but I hope they're all now proud of the Socialist do gooder I've blossomed into.

I really, truth be told, would just about be able to follow a serious discussion of most Economics topics by people who work in the various fields, I only know a bit compared to people who don't have a graduate degree in Economics. I read the Federal Reserve journals just to keep myself honest and will do some deeper reading from time to time if I see something interesting. It's been 25 years, after all and I haven't worked in field.

TBH, it is something I have to keep an eye on myself to be careful about. My own background is AI, but I work with systems modeling which includes economics as one of the models. Thus I lack the general academic background but have a good understanding of the particular stuff we do and how it interacts with the whole system. I can sometimes bring a lot to a conversation, but also have some pretty big gaps when it comes to economic models that only interact with themselves and the depth there... and gah it can sometimes be hard to keep that in mind when a conversation is adjacent to my domain!

Now, you wanna talk about building cars, I feel like I could keep up with anyone anywhere anytime.

Heh. About two years ago I changed my own oil for the first time and was proud of myself. That makes me an expert, right?

Sure. On Facebook

[neeneko]

Sure. On Facebook

eh, I think on facebook even "someone described a car to me once on the phone. they might have been drunk since they thought I was pizza hut" is enough to make one an "expert".

[Gregg]

"Facebook Auto Industry expert, knows vaguely who Henry Ford was, understands that motorcars are built in factories and not harvested from the Car Fields in Michigan, Japan and Bavaria." I sometimes think that I got a PhD in less than 3 years and I've been building cars for almost 30, so I probably know a thing or two about both.

I don't change my own oil, haven't in about 25 years. I get the covered maintenance package and haven't owned a daily driver that had 30,000 miles on it since 1998. I can and have built a full dress Ford Flathead engine with my dad when I was in my teens and have been able to rebuild an automatic transmission since I was 12. I still can, at least all the RWD models, some of that sideways stuff I've never tried.

If you take it out of the car, and put it on a bench in front of me.

Probably.

[Maybenaut]

"Facebook Auto Industry expert, knows vaguely who Henry Ford was, understands that motorcars are built in factories and not harvested from the Car Fields in Michigan, Japan and Bavaria." I sometimes think that I got a PhD in less than 3 years and I've been building cars for almost 30, so I probably know a thing or two about both.

I don't change my own oil, haven't in about 25 years. I get the covered maintenance package and haven't owned a daily driver that had 30,000 miles on it since 1998. I can and have built a full dress Ford Flathead engine with my dad when I was in my teens and have been able to rebuild an automatic transmission since I was 12. I still can, at least all the RWD models, some of that sideways stuff I've never tried.

If you take it out of the car, and put it on a bench in front of me.

Probably.

Off Topic

My husband has a 1980 MGB. He replaced the steering with electronic power steering. He swapped out the original MG four-speed transmission for a new Mitsubishi five-speed (designed for the MG). He removed the dual carburetors and replaced them with electronic fuel injection (which is Awesome! No exhaust or gasoline odors while sitting at a red light). He made some other minor changes - put a third brake light on the trunk lid so people can actually see us. Changed out the seats with Pontiac Fiero seats (much more comfortable on a long drive). Did some other stuff. He does all the work on the MG.

But he doesn’t even change the oil on his Honda Ridgeline or my Honda Pilot. He doesn’t think the newer cars are any fun to work on. But he loves tinkering with that MG.

[andersweinstein]

But it’s pretty clear that you think Rittenhouse was justified in killing two people and injuring a third....

So, yeah, it’s OK to bring in facts to try to generate some discussion about what those facts might mean. But don’t expect people here to assume you’re not arguing from a particular point of view, because it’s pretty obvious that you are. And some here might not agree with you.

No question I'm arguing from a particular point of view: that just on its face, abundant evidence strongly suggests he was no kind of extremist, had no hostility to the protestors, but was a purely defensive shooter acting out of genuine fear for his life. So the options should be perfect self-defense or imperfect self-defense (unnecessary defensive force) = second degree murder.

I don't have nearly as strong a view on which of those options one chooses. It looks to me that his self-defense claim is strongest on the first shooting. I'm much more torn on the second and third. I can very easily see those being judged unnecessary defensive force.

The main thing I want to push is to conceptualize him as a fundamentally defensive shooter.

Sure people may disagree. But it looks to me like a lot of the pushback is coming from people who are just not that informed on the facts given what we can find out already from abundant video evidence and reporting. As I've said, I feel like the only thing sustaining that disagreement for many interlocutors is assimilating him to a stereotype and projecting some picture of what they imagine must have happened.

[Uninformed]

If Rittenhouse “had no hostility to the protestors” why did he decide to go to Kenosha, and why did he arm himself with a self-loading rifle? Seems to me both decisions indicate otherwise.

ETA typo

[neeneko]

Off Topic

But he doesn’t even change the oil on his Honda Ridgeline or my Honda Pilot. He doesn’t think the newer cars are any fun to work on. But he loves tinkering with that MG.

I:ve been pondering the idea of getting an older car partly for that reason, newer ones seem like a pain to work with. I grew up with a family of gear heads and so really stayed away from that for a long time, but now that I am older and care a lot less about what I am associated with, I kinda want to start learning and doing some of my own work... but the car I have is.. ahm.. terrible for that.

Anyway! yeah, hijack.

[andersweinstein]

If Rittenhouse “had no hostility to the protestors” why did he decide to go to Kenosha, and why did he arm himself with a self-loading rifle? Seems to me both decisions indicate otherwise.

You can use that as circumstantial evidence. My idea is that it is very weak when there is plenty of other, much stronger evidence including his own words to interviewers and his behavior on video and the behavior of the armed people he was with that gives the lie to this idea. I think it really helps to view some of that video and get a sense of the scene on the ground that night. Essentially it all speaks for the idea that he was not there looking for trouble out of hostility to protestors and did not initiate conflicts or otherwise behave in an aggressive way.

One thing is that he roamed the vicinity all night looking for injured protestors he could give first aid to. It really seems to have been a big part of his fantasy, to be a medic helping injured protestors. Protestors were wary and he got only one taker -- the New Yorker writer observes that he seemed to have had no idea how he looked to them -- but they were not afraid to interact with him.

His story is that he brought the rifle for self-defense in case he got attacked. He also expected that there would be elements among the protestors who carried guns. That turned out to be true -- gunfire (into the air, I assume) was ringing out throughout the night. And a protestor's apparently supporting shot into the air behind him as Rittenhouse was fleeing Rosenbaum's attack could have contributed to a fear that he was under a life-threatening attack by protestors.

[Patagoniagirl]

He roamed around looking to aid injured protesters who he was afraid might be armed? Ridiculous. Did this wannabe medic bring a first aid kit? Nope. He brought a gun.

[Dave from down under]

Hearsay, speculation and an apologist narration.
Vs
Facts:
Illegal gun purchase
Illegal possession
2 dead 1 wounded

[neeneko]

He roamed around looking to aid injured protesters who he was afraid might be armed? Ridiculous. Did this wannabe medic bring a first aid kit? Nope. He brought a gun.

Huh? According to reporting he did indeed bring and carry a medical kit. His fantasy did seem to revolve around the idea of being more of a combat medic than soldier, and medics are, to the best of my knowledge, armed.

[Dave from down under]

He roamed around looking to aid injured protesters who he was afraid might be armed? Ridiculous. Did this wannabe medic bring a first aid kit? Nope. He brought a gun.

Huh? According to reporting he did indeed bring and carry a medical kit. His fantasy did seem to revolve around the idea of being more of a combat medic than soldier, and medics are, to the best of my knowledge, armed.

That may have been one of his fantasies*

The reality is that after killing two and wounding a third he didn’t try to use his fantastical first aid skills on those he shot.. he ran away.

* his other fantasy of shooting people he made a reality.

[Patagoniagirl]

He roamed around looking to aid injured protesters who he was afraid might be armed? Ridiculous. Did this wannabe medic bring a first aid kit? Nope. He brought a gun.

Huh? According to reporting he did indeed bring and carry a medical kit. His fantasy did seem to revolve around the idea of being more of a combat medic than soldier, and medics are, to the best of my knowledge, armed.

My bad. But did he use it on the people he shot?

[neeneko]

My bad. But did he use it on the people he shot?

It does not sound like he did, which in the real world looks really bad. I think his fantasy came crashing down pretty badly and by that point he was well outside its framework.

[Dave from down under]

My bad. But did he use it on the people he shot?

It does not sound like he did, which in the real world looks really bad. I think his fantasy came crashing down pretty badly and by that point he was well outside its framework.

There may be a lesson there about playing out your fantasies with a loaded gun…

Especially when one of your fantasies is shooting people.

[andersweinstein]

My bad. But did he use it on the people he shot?

It does not sound like he did, which in the real world looks really bad. I think his fantasy came crashing down pretty badly and by that point he was well outside its framework.

This is behavior he is going to have to explain, no question.

His story is that he felt he was still in danger of being attacked by protestors who were pointing at him and shouting things like "He just shot someone". Feeling the threat was not over, he chose to run back north where he knew the police line was (and also his base with the compadres from whom he had gotten separated).

Not much question this was a very poor decision which led to more loss of life. The fact that he was running with a gun while people were shouting "that dude just shot someone" just made him seem more suspicious (even though he is on video telling Gaige Grosskreutz he was going to get the police). It would have been much better for him to stick around and take his chance with the protestors.

Still, everything supports the idea he was running to the police. He did know exactly where the police were and ran in that direction. They had been using armored vehicles (Bearcats) to slowly force protestors south down Sheridan road, away from the center of the protests at the Civic Park/Courthouse. The roving Rittenhouse got trapped south of the police blockade stopped just above 60th street - he was prevented by police from returning to his base at the Car Source mechanic shop and the shooting was 2 and a half blocks south of there. So he knew exactly where they were and possibly could even see their lights. After the first shooting he was like someone caught out behind enemy lines amid a hostile crowd predisposed to think the worst of him. And we have probably all seem him attempt to surrender hands up when he finally got there.

[filly]

A huge problem with this discussion is that the Defendant’s advocate does not know what the word “evidence “ means in the context of a legal proceeding. So have fun with this dialogue but it’s not relevant to what is going to transpire. /Fini

[Gregg]

He roamed around looking to aid injured protesters who he was afraid might be armed? Ridiculous. Did this wannabe medic bring a first aid kit? Nope. He brought a gun.

I do think he had a first aid kit, actually.

ETA: No, he didn't. I was remembering the photos of him and the straps and stuff across his chest are just the rifle sling.