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Black Holes

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Estiveo
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Black Holes

#1

Post by Estiveo »

Mostly, supermassive black holes like to live alone.

Finding a second supermassive black hole close to the first one is rare. We've seen a few (and they should have been more common when the Universe was young), but they're not easy to spot.

Still, say they were… and say we could hop aboard the Enterprise and make the entirely questionable decision to warp on over to a binary supermassive black hole system. What would it look like?


https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/watch-the ... ssion=true
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Re: Black Holes

#2

Post by p0rtia »

Way cool. Thanks! :kiss:

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Re: Black Holes

#3

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

CCCCOOOOOOOLLLLLL!!!

Also, too, I am glad to see accretion disks are still in fashion.
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Re: Black Holes

#4

Post by Estiveo »

Accretion disks are de rigeur for any event horizon.
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Re: Black Holes

#5

Post by noblepa »

I love to watch science shows on TV, like "How The Universe Works" and others.

They often talk about black holes.

Apparently, they're finding that more and more galaxies have a super-massive black hole at their centers, including our own Milky Way galaxy.

The shows all stop short of saying it, but the next leap of logic (which, of course, might be very wrong) is that galaxies formed around black holes.

I've read articles and books about the Big Bang, and one question that astrophysicists seem to have is why the distribution of matter in the universe is not uniform. It is downright lumpy. No one has ever been able to say WHY galaxies formed in the first place. Perhaps black holes formed in the early universe and their immense gravity caused the accretion of matter into galaxies.
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Re: Black Holes

#6

Post by Suranis »



Ooh, baby don't you know I suffer?
Oh, baby can you hear me moan?
You caught me under false pretenses
How long before you let me go?

Ooh, you set my soul alight
Ooh, you set my soul alight

Glaciers melting in the dead of night
And the superstars sucked into the supermassive
(Ooh, you set my soul alight)
Glaciers melting in the dead of night
And the superstars sucked into the supermassive
(Ooh, you set my soul)

I thought I was a fool for no one
But ooh, baby I'm a fool for you
You're the queen of the superficial
And how long before you tell the truth?

Ooh, you set my soul alight
Ooh, you set my soul alight

Glaciers melting in the dead of night
And the superstars sucked into the supermassive
(Ooh, you set my soul alight)
Glaciers melting in the dead of night
And the superstars sucked into the supermassive
(Ooh, you set my soul)

Supermassive black hole
Supermassive black hole
Supermassive black hole
Supermassive black hole

Glaciers melting in the dead of night
And the superstars sucked into the supermassive
Glaciers melting in the dead of night
And the superstars sucked into the supermassive

Glaciers melting in the dead of night
And the superstars sucked into the supermassive
(Ooh, you set my soul alight)
Glaciers melting in the dead of night
And the superstars sucked into the supermassive
(Ooh, you set my soul)

Supermassive black hole
Supermassive black hole
Supermassive black hole
Supermassive black hole
Hic sunt dracones
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Re: Black Holes

#7

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

Estiveo wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:15 pm Accretion disks are de rigeur for any event horizon.
Well played!
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Re: Black Holes

#8

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

:winner:

Suranis wins the internet!!!!!!!!
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Re: Black Holes

#9

Post by Foggy »

OK, who ate my accretion disc? I was saving the one with the chocolate chips! :violin: :crying:
Out from under. :thumbsup:
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Re: Black Holes

#10

Post by Estiveo »

Too late; there's a Chandrasekhar Limit on how many are available per day.
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Re: Black Holes

#11

Post by Uninformed »

A black hole is created every time I try thinking about them :bag:
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Re: Black Holes

#12

Post by northland10 »

Estiveo wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:39 am
Still, say they were… and say we could hop aboard the Enterprise and make the entirely questionable decision to warp on over to a binary supermassive black hole system. What would it look like?
My desk.
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Re: Black Holes

#13

Post by AndyinPA »

That's the coolest video I've seen in ages! :winner:
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Re: Black Holes

#14

Post by keith »

AndyinPA wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:20 pm That's the coolest video I've seen in ages! :winner:
Hell yeah it is.

I wanna set it up on loop as my desktop background image.
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Re: Black Holes

#15

Post by northland10 »

Accretion disck? I thought I was still in the church hat thread.
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Re: Black Holes

#16

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

https://www.academickids.com/encycloped ... itz_Zwicky

The Dark Matter Rap

My name is Fritz Zwicky
I can be kind of prickly,
This song had better start
by giving me priority
Whatever anybody says,
I said in 1933
Observe the Coma cluster,
the redshift of the galaxies
imply some big velocities.
They're moving so fast,
there must missing mass!
Dark matter.
For nearly forty years,
the matter problem sits.
Nobody gets worried 'cause,
"It's only crazy Fritz."
The next step's not 'til
the early nineteen seventies,
Ostriker and Peeples,
dynamics of the galaxies,
cold disk instabilities.
They say: "If the mass
were sitting in the stars,
all those pretty spirals
ought to be bars!
Self-gravitating disks? Uh-uh, oh no.
What those spirals need is a massive halo.
And hey, look over here, check out these observations,
Vera Rubin's optical curves of rotation,
they can provide our needed confirmation:
Those curves aren't falling, they're FLAT!
Dark matter's where it's AT!
And so the call goes out for the dark matter candidates:
black holes, snowballs, gas clouds, low mass stars, or planets.
But we quickly hit a snag because galaxy formation
requires too much structure in the background radiation
if there's only baryons and adiabatic fluctuations.
The Russians have an answer: "Wr can solve the impasse.
Lyubimov has shown that the neutrino has mass."
Zeldovich cries, "Pancakes! The dark matter's HOT."
Carlos Frenk, Simon White, Marc Davis say, "NOT!
Quasars are old, and the pancakes must be young.
Forming from the top down it can't be done."
So neutrinos hit the skids, and the picture's looking black.
But California laid-back Blumenthal & Primack
say, "Don't have a heart attack.
There's lots of other particles
Just read the physics articles."
Who's right? It's hard to know, 'til observation or experiment
gives overwhelming evidence that relieves our predicament.
The search is getting popular as many realize
that the detector of dark matter may well win the Nobel Prize.

"The Dark Matter Rap"
-David Weinberg
Featured in Timothy Ferris' The Whole Shebang'
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Re: Black Holes

#17

Post by RVInit »

Chandra Deep Field South : Deepest X-ray Image Ever Reveals Black Hole Treasure Trove
This image contains the highest concentration of black holes ever seen, equivalent to 5,000 over the area on the sky covered by the full Moon.

Made with over 7 million seconds of Chandra observing time, this is the deepest X-ray image ever obtained.

These data give astronomers the best look yet at the growth of black holes over billions of years soon after the Big Bang.
https://chandra.si.edu/photo/2017/cdfs/
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Black Holes

#18

Post by RTH10260 »

Astronomers capture largest cosmic explosion ever witnessed
Fireball ‘100 times the size of the solar system’ thought to have been caused by gas being sucked into supermassive black hole

Hannah Devlin Science correspondent
Fri 12 May 2023 00.01 BST

It started as an unremarkable flicker in the night sky. But closer observations revealed that astronomers had captured the largest cosmic explosion ever witnessed, an event thought to have been triggered by a giant cloud of gas being gobbled up by a supermassive black hole.

The flare-up, traced to 8bn light years away, is more than 10 times brighter than any known supernova and has so far lasted more than three years, making it the most energetic explosion on record.

“It went unnoticed for a year as it gradually got brighter,” said Dr Philip Wiseman, an astronomer at Southampton University who led the observations. It was only when follow-up observations revealed how distant it was that astronomers appreciated the event’s almost unimaginable scale.

“We’ve estimated it’s a fireball 100 times the size of the solar system with a brightness about 2tn times the sun’s,” Wiseman said. “In three years, this event has released about 100 times as much energy as the sun will in its 10bn-year lifetime.”

Scientists believe that the explosion, known as AT2021lwx, is the result of a vast cloud of gas, possibly thousands of times larger than our sun, plunging into the inescapable mouth of a supermassive black hole. The cloud of gas may have originated from the large dusty “doughnut” that typically surrounds black holes – although it is not clear what may have knocked it off course from its orbit and down the cosmic sinkhole.

AT2021lwx is not the brightest phenomenon ever witnessed. A brighter gamma-ray burst, known as GRB 221009A, was spotted last year, but this event lasted only minutes. By contrast, the new event is still going strong, meaning the overall energy release is far greater.





https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... -witnessed
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Black Holes

#19

Post by RTH10260 »

:think: "witnessed" may not be the correct term as this event happened a few years in the past ;)
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Black Holes

#20

Post by RTH10260 »

crossposting from earlier this year to correct thread
RTH10260 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 9:19 am The grave of all cryptocurrencies?
Supermassive black hole at heart of ancient galaxy ‘far larger than expected’
Discovery of GS-9209, one of the furthest from the Milky Way, adds to evidence that large black holes prevent star formation, astronomers say

Ian Sample Science editor
Fri 26 May 2023 18.11 BST

A supermassive black hole discovered at the heart of an ancient galaxy is five times larger than expected for the number of stars it contains, astronomers say.

Researchers spotted the immense black hole in a galaxy known as GS-9209 that lies 25bn light-years from Earth, making it one of the most distant to have been observed and recorded.

The team at Edinburgh University used the James Webb space telescope (JWST) to observe the galaxy and reveal fresh details about its composition and history.

Dr Adam Carnall, who led the effort, said the telescope – the most powerful ever built – showed how galaxies were growing “larger and earlier” than astronomers expected in the first billion years of the universe.

“This work gives us our first really detailed look at the properties of these early galaxies, charting in detail the history of GS-9209, which managed to form as many stars as our own Milky Way in just 800m years after the big bang,” he said.

Carnall said the “very massive black hole” at the centre of GS-9209 was a “big surprise” that lent weight to the theory that such enormous black holes are responsible for shutting down star formation in early galaxies.

“The evidence we see for the supermassive black hole was really unexpected,” said Carnall. “This is the kind of detail we’d never have been able to see without JWST.”
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Black Holes

#21

Post by RTH10260 »

Revealed: the oldest black hole ever observed, dating to dawn of universe
Exclusive: astronomers surprised at size of 13bn-year-old object, which raises new questions about where black holes came from

Hannah Devlin Science correspondent
Sun 10 Dec 2023 15.00 CET

Astronomers have detected the oldest black hole ever observed, dating back more than 13bn years to the dawn of the universe.

The observations, by the James Webb space telescope (JWST), reveal it to be at the heart of a galaxy 440m years after the big bang. At around a million times the mass of the sun, it is surprisingly big for a baby black hole, raising the question of how it grew so big so quickly.

Prof Roberto Maiolino, an astrophysicist at the University of Cambridge, who led the observations, said: “The surprise is in it being so very massive. That was the most unexpected thing.”

The observations, published on the preprint website Arxiv, do not take a direct image, which is unseeable because no light can escape its grip. But astronomers detected telltale signatures of its accretion disk, the halo of gas and dust that swirls rapidly around the cosmic sinkhole.

Astronomers believe the earliest black holes could help unlock a puzzle of how their gargantuan counterparts at the centre of galaxies such as the Milky Way grew to billions the times the mass of the sun. Until recently, they were assumed to have simply snowballed over nearly 14bn years, steadily growing through mergers and by gobbling up stars and other objects. But this snowball scenario cannot fully account for the epic proportions of present-day supermassive black holes.

The latest observations, of the galaxy called GN-z11, push the origins of this mystery back to black holes’ infancy and suggest that they were either born big or ballooned extremely rapidly early on.


https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... f-universe
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Black Holes

#22

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

So, it’s Gen Z.
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Black Holes

#23

Post by RTH10260 »

A scientist went out to find and prove an alternate theory to Dark Matter, comes home with the proof in the pudding that it cannot be
The MOND alternative to dark matter is wrong
What next for cosmology?

21st November 2023
Indranil Banik | Research fellow in Galaxy Dynamics, University of St Andrews, investigating modified theories of gravity and the need for postulating the existence of dark matter.

Dark matter is a central but contentious part of the dominant model of cosmology. It has never been observed directly and is seen as an arbitrary add-on to Einstein's theory of gravity, just to make the data fit. MOND has for a long time been considered the most credible alternative theory of gravity, doing away with the need to postulate dark matter. But a recent study lead by Dr Indranil Banik, a past supporter of MOND, demonstrates that the theory is in fact wrong. The search for a more credible alternative continues.

According to the dominant paradigm in cosmology, the majority of the stuff that makes up our universe is not the ordinary matter we see around us, but something called dark matter. According to this standard model of cosmology, dark matter has a gravitational effect at large scales in the universe, effects that are not observable at smaller scales like our Solar System. The only problem is, no one has ever observed dark matter directly – its existence is only postulated by its supposed gravitational effect at large scales. I have been a critic of the dark matter hypothesis, and in the past have expressed an interest in its main alternative –Milgromian dynamics, or MOND for short. MOND has been heralded as making better sense of the data astronomers gather, and as having made accurate predictions, whereas dark matter theory has to retrospectively adjust to make sense of new data. But according to a recent paper I published along with colleagues, I show that MOND is in fact wrong. That leaves cosmology without an accurate or complete theory of gravity, opening up the prospect for a paradigm shift in our understanding of gravity.

One of the big mysteries in astrophysics today that has dark matter theorists clash with MOND supporters concerns the rotation speed of stars and gas in galaxies. As you go further from their centre, the rotation speed remains almost the same, even when you are far beyond the extent of the visible matter. These flat rotation curves are unlike the Solar System, where more distant planets orbit the Sun more slowly (in addition to facing a larger orbit). Scientists are unsure of how to solve this missing gravity problem in galaxies, but one leading idea is to add a halo of dark matter around each one, supposedly adding a gravitational pull. This solution, of course, is very speculative because nobody has ever seen the dark matter other than indirectly through the gravity it creates, making it plausible that the problem instead lies with our understanding of gravity.

This is where MOND comes in as a potential alternative model of gravity. According to MOND, the gravitational field from a point mass declines according to the Newtonian inverse square law of gravity that we are all familiar with only when the strength of gravity is above a threshold called a0. Within this Newtonian regime, gravity becomes 4 times weaker at double the distance. Once gravity becomes weaker than a0, MOND postulates that gravity switches to an inverse distance decline, so it still weakens with distance – but now doubling the distance halves the gravity in the MOND regime.




much more at the link https://iai.tv/articles/the-challenge-t ... -auid-2676
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Black Holes

#24

Post by keith »

Extremely cool and interesting to this one-time Chem-Physics major/Astronomy minor student.

ETA:
The author's conclusion here is extremely cogent: Scientists shouldn't stop at confirming predictions to 'prove' a theory, rather they should work at disproving theories, that is examining predictions their theory makes that fail. This is exactly what the author did in his attempt to support the MOND theory. And it is exactly what drives the continuous improvement of our knowledge. Its what science IS.

The standard model (^CDM) is not perfect. It's a MODEL not ACTUALITY. (The MAP is not the TERRITORY).

Newton is not perfect, Einstein improved on it, but it's still not perfect. Relativity is not compatible with Quantum at singularity scale, why should we be surprised that Relativity is not completely accurate at Galaxy scale and larger?

I wouldn't give up on MOND completely yet, it explains a lot of things equally well to ^CDM, so maybe there might be value in it yet when applied from a different angle maybe. However, if it can't explain what dark matter explains better or simpler, then it won't remove the need for dark matter.

Personally, I'd like to see dark matter be beaten by a better theory. It's ugly, but it's the best we have.
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Black Holes

#25

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

Thanks, keith! I luvs physics 'splained so I can have a glimmer of a glimpse of a peep at understanding it! :biggrin:
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