Man-Made Disasters

[filly]

I'm wondering when they are going to send out sample of the conrete for chloride testing.

The reports of spalling suggests that the rebar was corroding.

I bet they used a poor quality aggregate in the concrete.

I wrote about this the day it happened. Could be contaminants fro cement kilns that burned haz wastes as a business in 70s and 80s

How much does being on the ocean shore (salt water) effect this?

Wouldn’t help. But the era the condo was built makes this a hypothesis well worth testing.

[Kendra]

Another body found, plus some human remains. Death count five, 156 unaccounted for.

[Liz]

For 60 years a leaky pool on an improperly drained deck over a limestone substrate does this.

First reports said the building pancaked. It did not. Pancaking happens when upper floors collapse onto lower floors (like the Twin Towers).
This collapse started at the bottom.

[neonzx]

For 60 years a leaky pool on an improperly drained deck over a limestone substrate does this.

40 years/ 1981.

[bill_g]

I see it as a culmination of conflicting right wing demands: less government interference with fewer (unnecessary) regulations on one hand, and an incompetent government not enforcing the law.

How many times have we heard it argued that it's in a business' self interest to offer the best possible product at the lowest price? There is no need to regulate because the market will determine the best course based on quality and performance. Unfortunately, the market doesn't look 40 years down the road. It barely looks 2 years ahead. The market is about immediate return on investments, and reoccuring revenue, not one time sales. This tragedy was bound to happen.

[Kendra]

CNN is just awesome keeping this story covered and talking to relatives with such compassion and empathy. Its so hard see both the reporters and relatives keep catching themselves when speaking of their loved one in the past tense.

Watched a bit of F&F this morning, they covered it a bit more than yesterday, but still a light weight effort. I was going to cut them some slack, because CNN is the network that can get BOTG better than anyone. Then I recalled how quickly they could get up and running for the latest caravan crises to cry about.

[Maybenaut]

For 60 years a leaky pool on an improperly drained deck over a limestone substrate does this.

First reports said the building pancaked. It did not. Pancaking happens when upper floors collapse onto lower floors (like the Twin Towers).
This collapse started at the bottom.

I don't think it matters where the collapse started. It pancakes if, like a stack of pancakes, the floors all end up on top of one another. That could happen whether the collapse starts from the top, the bottom, or somewhere in the middle.

[Lani]

When I saw the rubble, my heart broke. It's amazing that anyone survived. The final death count will be horrible.

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[Kendra]

descent is seems a bit touchy, tired too. Must be inconvenient having to deal with this mess. Reporter at presser just now asked him about his choice to send resources to the border at this time. He snapped back that those were staff that couldn't have provided aid at condo. Hopefully a clip will get posted to Twitter.

As I understand what was just announced, they found four more bodies, plus more body parts

[Slim Cognito]

descent is seems a bit touchy, tired too. Must be inconvenient having to deal with this mess. Reporter at presser just now asked him about his choice to send resources to the border at this time. He snapped back that those were staff that couldn't have provided aid at condo. Hopefully a clip will get posted to Twitter.

As I understand what was just announced, they found four more bodies, plus more body parts

My ass. Anybody can carry a bucket (sorry that sounds insensitive but that's what they're doing. Piling rubble into buckets and looking for body parts.)

[Kendra]

descent is seems a bit touchy, tired too. Must be inconvenient having to deal with this mess. Reporter at presser just now asked him about his choice to send resources to the border at this time. He snapped back that those were staff that couldn't have provided aid at condo. Hopefully a clip will get posted to Twitter.

As I understand what was just announced, they found four more bodies, plus more body parts

My ass. Anybody can carry a bucket (sorry that sounds insensitive but that's what they're doing. Piling rubble into buckets and looking for body parts.)

Agreed. He did mention the likes of Fish and Wildlife. Like, what skills do they have at the border?

[RTH10260]

descent is seems a bit touchy, tired too. Must be inconvenient having to deal with this mess. Reporter at presser just now asked him about his choice to send resources to the border at this time. He snapped back that those were staff that couldn't have provided aid at condo. Hopefully a clip will get posted to Twitter.

As I understand what was just announced, they found four more bodies, plus more body parts

My ass. Anybody can carry a bucket (sorry that sounds insensitive but that's what they're doing. Piling rubble into buckets and looking for body parts.)

Agreed. He did mention the likes of Fish and Wildlife. Like, what skills do they have at the border?

Shooting fish in a barrel Rio Grande

[Kendra]

I would love it if an expert on body language would take a close look at and analyze DeSantis right now. Watch him, even if he's in the background.

[Maybenaut]

When I saw the rubble, my heart broke. It's amazing that anyone survived. The final death count will be horrible.

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[chancery]

Surfside tower had ‘major structural damage’ — but enough to cause a collapse?

https://www.local10.com/news/local/2021 ... -collapse/

This fascinating short article contains comments from two Florida engineers, including one who seems to be an eminent specialist in risks to concrete construction in Florida. They suggest (preliminarily, of course) that the flaws and damage described in the 2018 Morabito Associates report do not appear likely to have created a risk of imminent collapse. In other words, the cracks, the crumbling, the water damage, salt spray, and the improperly-designed flat slab may all be red herrings in the search for the principle cause(s) of the collapse.

But a structural engineer who reviewed those reports and photographs with Local 10 News said they don’t indicate flaws that would cause part of the building to suddenly come crashing down as it did early Thursday morning.

“These things are very unlikely to cause the building to collapse,” said Sinisa Kolar, a senior structural engineer with The Falcon Group. “Can they cause a balcony or piece or chunk of balcony to fall down? Yes. But the whole building as a result of these things? No.”

The pictures that I’ve seen really don’t show substantial structural damage of the columns,” Kolar said. “Something that would be indictable stresses, rather than, let’s call it, relative corrosion.” He said hairline cracks are not unexpected for a building 40 years old.

Kolar said that “this collapse is definitely an outlier,” which echoed the initial thoughts of John Pistorino, a structural engineer for 54 years who has been retained by an attorney to investigate the tragedy.

Pistorino — who has investigated the Miami Dade College garage collapse, the FIU bridge collapse and many others around the United States, and actually wrote the 40-year building recertification process — spoke to Local 10 News’ Jeff Weinsier on Friday.

“It’s unexplainable. I’m bewildered,” Pistorino said. “Concrete gives you a warning. It gives you a warning. It doesn’t fail that fast. ...

“The only other time I’ve seen something that dramatic, that quick was when we were imploding, demolishing buildings on purpose.”

Another article quoting Pistorino and summarizing his background is https://www.wlrn.org/news/2021-06-24/af ... -disasters

One thing that strikes me as a little odd is Piestorino's private role in this investigation. It is standard for big class action law firms to seek out good experts, but it seems a little odd that he would so quickly accept an engagement that would (I assume) disqualify him from participating in any governmental investigations.

[Volkonski]

Resident files class-action lawsuit after Florida condo collapse
The purpose of the suit, filed in Miami-Dade County just before 11:30 p.m. Thursday, is to "compensate the victims of this unfathomable loss," according to the filing.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/re ... d_nn_tw_ma

A resident of Champlain Towers South, the Florida high-rise condo building that partially collapsed, filed a class-action lawsuit less than 24 hours after nearly half the building was reduced to rubble.

The suit, filed by Manuel Drezner in Miami-Dade County just before 11:30 p.m. Thursday, said its purpose is to "compensate the victims of this unfathomable loss."



The suit said Champlain Towers South Condominium Association Inc. "failed to adequately secure the building, placing the lives and property of its occupants and visitors ... at risk resulting in the collapse of the building."

"At all relevant times, defendant was aware, or reasonably should have been aware that the plaintiff's and the class's lives and property were at risk due to the lack of precautions taken at Champlain Towers South," according to the suit.

[keith]

CNN bringing out the big gun anchors. Anderson Cooper and Chris Cuomo there today. Wolf said he'll be there tomorrow.

Yeah, but where is Biden and Harris?

[keith]

The building is within a couple blocks of the ocean. You'd be surprised at how far the wind can drive the salty mist. My ex owned a car that was previously owned by a pacific coast resident. My mechanic cussed that car. Every nut that needed turning was corroded.

Growing up in Tucson it was hammered home to us that if you are looking to buy a used car you needed to very carefully inspect every nook and cranny on the underside for corrosion because the first thing used car dealers did was take off the Michigan (or whatever snow bound state you can name) license plates to disguise the fact that they had probably been exposed to road salt.

My Dad forgot that once and bought a beautiful Rambler station wagon that was more rust than steel.

[DejaMoo]

Ex-Maintenance Manager for Surfside Condo That Collapsed Recalls Saltwater Intrusion

A former maintenance manager for the Surfside, Florida, condominium building that collapsed on Thursday said he previously worried about the amount of saltwater that would flood the garage, as authorities continue to search for 156 missing people in the wreckage.

William Espinosa, who oversaw maintenance of the Champlain Towers South condo building from 1995 to 2000, recalled the building's garage experiencing a concerning amount of seawater during high ocean tides.

"Any time that we had high tides away from the ordinary, any King Tide or anything like that, we would have a lot of saltwater come in through the bottom of the of the foundation," he told CBS 4 Miami, adding they had to use two large pumps to try and remove the rising water.

"But it was so much water, all the time, that the pumps never could keep up with it."

Furthermore, building managers discovered a large hole under the condo after the collapse that may have been caused by saltwater intrusion. Saltwater intrusion can be particularly corrosive to older concrete, as it attacks the pillars and foundation and can slowly erode concrete and cause damage to steel, CBS 4 Miami reported.

"The water would just basically sit there and then it would just seep downward," Espinosa told the news outlet. "It would just go away after a while. And I would think, where does that water go? Because it had to go in through somewhere. I'm talking about a foot, sometimes two feet of water in the bottom of the parking lot, the whole parking lot."

Espinosa added that even when he attempted to flag the issue, the building managers merely said that the issue had been occurring for years.

https://www.newsweek.com/ex-maintenance ... on-1604508

[Kendra]

@tomforemancnn
explains what a "pancake collapse" is and why the search for survivors in the Surfside condo collapse is more urgent than in other types of collapses. https://cnn.it/3A90xWw

[Kendra]

Another body pulled out this morning. Unaccounted count 151.

Watched bits of F&F this morning. They've picked up on the coverage, but no video from reporter on site talking to family members like CNN has been doing. The F&F folks lasered in on the 2018 engineer report, which is fair, but they've already convicted who they deem guilty before an official inquiry and report.

[Kendra]

https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/edi ... kspXy_EQF0

We’d be fools not to ask if condo collapse is linked to Miami-Dade’s shoddy construction in the ’80s | Editorial
BY THE MIAMI HERALD EDITORIAL BOARD
JUNE 28, 2021 06:58 PM, UPDATED 3 MINUTES AGO

[Chilidog]

https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/local/ ... 21658.html

Notice how the one drain pipe in the right picture is out of plumb.

That indicates some serious deflection is going on.

[neonzx]

https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/local/ ... 21658.html

Notice how the one drain pipe in the right picture is out of plumb.

That indicates some serious deflection is going on.

yehbut, PVC doesn't flex. If it was originally plumb, wouldn't have the pipe or joint unions have cracked with that much deviation?

[RTH10260]

https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/local/ ... 21658.html

Notice how the one drain pipe in the right picture is out of plumb.

That indicates some serious deflection is going on.

yehbut, PVC doesn't flex. If it was originally plumb, wouldn't have the pipe or joint unions have cracked with that much deviation?

With the length of the pipe along the ground (running to the back in the pic) I guess there was sufficient flex to twist it so the vertical pipe did lean against the wall, especially if it happened slowly over several years.