Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#26

Post by Frater I*I »

pipistrelle wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 7:57 pm All of this goes over my head. I learned if you were born in the U.S., you are eligible to be president. (Okay, I'm vague on U.S. territories, kids born to parents stationed overseas while in the military, Foreign Service, etc.). But born in Oakland? No doubts.
That would be CPL Frater here :wave:

Born in Misawa, Japan, US citizen from birth, though I think Zee Orange Furher has made it harder for such, bunch of hoops to get the NBC confirmed...

Most US territories confer birthright citizenship, but there are few that don't...due to arcane laws passed by Congress back in the early 1900s...
"He sewed his eyes shut because he is afraid to see, He tries to tell me what I put inside of me
He's got the answers to ease my curiosity, He dreamed a god up and called it Christianity"

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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#27

Post by Dr. Ken »

bob wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:32 pm How it started:


How's it going:

CHECKMATE, LIBS. :smoking:
He blocked me after I kept showing his claims about vattel had no basis. He also thinks law of nations in the constitution is a reference to vattel
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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#28

Post by bob »

Because everything old is new again:

Yes, Publius Huldah is back! :towel:
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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#29

Post by Frater I*I »

Holy hell, we're getting to see some real necromancy here in real time...how long until Taitz makes he triumphant return....
"He sewed his eyes shut because he is afraid to see, He tries to tell me what I put inside of me
He's got the answers to ease my curiosity, He dreamed a god up and called it Christianity"

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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#30

Post by bob »

Dr. Ken wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:49 pm He blocked me after I kept showing his claims about vattel had no basis. He also thinks law of nations in the constitution is a reference to vattel
Speaking of "Sayre":

:boxing:
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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#31

Post by bob »

Frater I*I wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2024 9:14 pm Holy hell, we're getting to see some real necromancy here in real time...how long until Taitz makes he triumphant return....
Taitz never was a two-citizen-parent birther; Taitz was birth-certificate ride-or-die.

Taitz (correctly! :shock: ) said it was just a theory. Maybe:

1. She was smart enough to know that :rotflmao: ;
2. Too dumb to understand it, so she just dismissed it;
3. Hated it because it was touted by her rivals (Apuzzo, Donofrio, etc.).

Personally, I think it was (3), a spite rejection. So Taitz could focus on her own brand.
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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#32

Post by Luke »

Mike did a great job and there were lots of memory lane moments.

Birfers will run wild again, it's amping up already. Now, they have social media (there wasn't as much in 2009). The best defense is a good offense.
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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#33

Post by MikeDunford »

Agree on the good offense. I need to go back and re-read the decision on the Colorado ballot case from a few months ago - didn't consider the effect it might have on birther cases (and standing) because...well...*gestures vaguely*. Probably time to give that a bit of thought.

As an aside - other than me finding a job, Bad Legal Takes is one of the best things to come out of the Threadnought.
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#34

Post by New Turtle »

I found the fogbow during peak sovcittery, after most of the birthers ran back to their holes. I look forward to seeing some birthers get owned in real time.
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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#35

Post by Rolodex »

So if they're saying that if your parents are not citizens, even if you're born in the US you're not a citizen. You could get multiple generations of people unable to be citizens that way (unless they were able to naturalize). A kid is born here to non-citizens, meets a person with the same backstory, they have a kid who also wouldn't be a citizen (because they aren't citizens.). It's so stupid.
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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#36

Post by bob »

MikeDunford wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 12:26 am Agree on the good offense. I need to go back and re-read the decision on the Colorado ballot case from a few months ago - didn't consider the effect it might have on birther cases (and standing) because...well...*gestures vaguely*. Probably time to give that a bit of thought.
I'd be curious about your analysis.

I think the real-world answer is that it is only about section 5, and the only person running for a federal office who was found to have violated it, but I could see some "interesting" language buried in there.
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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#37

Post by Suranis »

Shockingly, Vattel was not a 2 citizen parent birther either. There's a reason why Birthers never quote the entirety of 212, would never in a million years quote 215, which directly talks about birth to citizens in a foreign land and says that place makes no difference.

https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/what ... l_head_015
§212. Citizens and natives.

The citizens are the members of the civil society: bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see, whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.

§213. Inhabitants.

The inhabitants, as distinguished from citizens, are foreigners, who are permitted to settle and stay in the country. Bound to the society by their residence, they are subject to the laws of the state, while they reside in it; and they are obliged to defend it, because it grants them protection, though they do not participate in all the rights of citizens. They enjoy only the advantages which the law or custom gives them. The perpetual inhabitants are those who have received the right of perpetual residence. These are a kind of citizens of an inferior order, and are united to the society, without participating in all its advantages. Their children follow the condition of their fathers; and as the state has given to these the right of perpetual residence, their right passes to their posterity.

§214. Naturalisation.

A nation, or the sovereign who represents it, may grant to a foreigner the quality of citizen, by admitting him into the body of the political society. This is called naturalisation. There are some states in which the sovereign cannot grant to a foreigner all the rights of citizens,—for example, that of holding public offices,—and where, consequently, he has the power of granting only an imperfect naturalisation. It is here a regulation of the fundamental law, which limits the power of the prince. In other states, as in England and Poland, the prince cannot naturalise a single person, without the concurrence of the nation represented by its deputies. Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner.

§215. Children of citizens, born in a foreign country.

It is asked, whether the children born of citizens in a foreign country are citizens? The laws have decided this question in several countries, and their regulations must be followed. By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers, and enter into all their rights (§212); the place of birth produces no change in this particular, and cannot of itself furnish any reason for taking from a child what nature has given him; I say “of itself,” for civil or political laws may, for particular reasons, ordain otherwise. But I suppose that the father has not entirely quitted his country in order to settle elsewhere. If he has fixed his abode in a foreign country, he is become a member of another society, at least as a perpetual inhabitant; and his children will be members of it also.
But the truth of the matter is that because of the Birthers there is a VAST amount of legal precedent and rulings showing Obama was a Natural Born citizen and eligible for the presidency. The Birthers either ignore it at try and invent reasons why it doesn't matter.

The classic is the appeal court ruling of Ankeny V Daniels, cited as binding precedent by cases all over the country. Births try and claim it does not mater because it was an appeal court and not the REAL court, but that does not mean shit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Ob ... litigation
Ankeny v. Governor of the State of Indiana

In December 2008, Steve Ankeny and Bill Kruse filed a "Petition for Extraordinary Writ of Prohibition" against Indiana governor Mitch Daniels to block "any popular votes for Barack Obama and Joe Biden for the appointment as Chief Electors [sic]." A hearing was held, and on March 16, 2009, Daniels' motion to dismiss was granted. The Plaintiffs appealed the ruling to the Indiana Court of Appeals, which upheld it on November 12, 2009.[100]

The appellate decision addressed the question of whether Obama's eligibility was affected by his father's lack of U.S. citizenship, saying that "based upon the language of Article II, Section 1, Clause 4 and the guidance provided by Wong Kim Ark, we conclude that persons born within the borders of the United States are 'natural born Citizens' for Article II, Section 1 purposes, regardless of the citizenship of their parents."[101] On April 1, 2010, the Indiana Supreme Court rejected, without comment, a request to consider the case.[102]
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#38

Post by bob »


Yeah; that's get the kids' attention. :roll:
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#39

Post by bob »


I tend to agree this one was not authored by a native English speaker (and possibly not a human).

And there are multiple iterations; I'm only reposting the funniest ones.

But, semi-seriously, we should start a @BadNaturalBornCitizenTakes account just to give BLT a break.
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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#40

Post by pipistrelle »

Have you ever and/or are you now a Citizen of any country other than the USA?
That’s not a coherent sentence.
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#41

Post by Slim Cognito »

Doesn't being a citizen of Jamaica just make her cooler, or is that just me?
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#42

Post by Foggy »

Way cooler, but I am not fooled - she will NOT be a perfect president. Good, absolutely. Great, we'll see. Perfect, no chance.

That's mah final rulin' on the subject. :mrgreen:
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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#43

Post by Dr. Ken »



I've seen this claim about her mother's visa being expired once or twice but I've never been able to find any source for this.

I did find her INS file
https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/fil ... Harris.pdf
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#44

Post by northland10 »

Two comments on various things mentioned above by us or the idiots.

1. Wasn't it Mario who used the Dred Scott citation (and not even from the majority opinion IIRC). I seem to recall him getting routinely mocked for that not that it would have any impact on him.

2. Funny how anybody born here is NBC was all fine and dandy until the one running for POTUS looked different from old white men.
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#45

Post by Dr. Ken »

northland10 wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 9:52 am Two comments on various things mentioned above by us or the idiots.

1. Wasn't it Mario who used the Dred Scott citation (and not even from the majority opinion IIRC). I seem to recall him getting routinely mocked for that not that it would have any impact on him.

2. Funny how anybody born here is NBC was all fine and dandy until the one running for POTUS looked different from old white men.

Yup that's the common denominator even the birthers who went after Jindal, cruz and Haley. It just so happened to be that they had a different skin color.

The sayre guy above had a habit of using the dissents in stuff he referenced and was called out by multiple lawyers for it
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#46

Post by northland10 »

Dr. Ken wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 9:58 am The sayre guy above had a habit of using the dissents in stuff he referenced and was called out by multiple lawyers for it
That is a typical birther approach which is likely necessitated by the lack of majority opinions that support their legal belief. They can just tell the rulbes that it is from a SCOTUS ruling. It's not like they're going to check out the claim.

If a dissent won't work, you can always make a minor claim from dicta pulled out of context.
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Kamala Devi Harris Birthers - Ammunition: Birthers v Reality: Round 2

#47

Post by bob »

I can't be bothered to read the file, but I recall there was a point where some paperwork was incomplete or pending.

"Expired" would be a stretch.
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#48

Post by bob »

northland10 wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 9:52 am Two comments on various things mentioned above by us or the idiots.

1. Wasn't it Mario who used the Dred Scott citation (and not even from the majority opinion IIRC). I seem to recall him getting routinely mocked for that not that it would have any impact on him.

2. Funny how anybody born here is NBC was all fine and dandy until the one running for POTUS looked different from old white men.
1. Yes, Apuzzo cited the Dred Scott (concurring) opinion. I recall, when called on it, he said the 14th Amendment abrogated Dred Scott with respect to the slaves. But the 14th Amendment itself wasn't a reputation of Vattel. :roll:

2. And, yes: It is unclear if Spiro Agnew's Greek parents naturalized before his birth, and no one then thought to ask. :think:
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#49

Post by bob »

First Neal v. Harris sighting!

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#50

Post by Suranis »

Paul Ingrassia
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Jul 22, 2024
@PaulIngrassia
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Everyone is wrong for criticizing John Eastman’s analysis.

He’s correct. None of the Founding Fathers believed citizenship should automatically be conferred by birthright,...
That's funny, because Vattel sure as hell did.
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