Biden is toast

#51

Nonsense. Busterbunker, you and I disagree, and I apologize for maybe being a little strident on the subject

but I'm not merging or deleting anything you want to say. Yeah, this thread is a little duplicative, but that's OK today. I realized the day you started it that you were upset and needed to start a new thread. I do respect you and have never edited or deleted a word you've written. And I read your posts with interest and in all seriousness.

Maybe some people will force Joe out. Maybe they won't.

But crabbing about how I run this small website is very different from addressing the question above, which is, WHAT IS THE PLAN.

What is the plan for AFTER people force Biden out against his will, and after he already won the nomination?

#52

As I lay here exhausted from taking care of Mom, making phone calls for BIDEN, knocking on doors for BIDEN, attending get togethers with undecided voters for BIDEN and feeling like I'm getting beat up by people on this forum because I am sharing what I am actually seeing from UNDECIDED voters and soft Republicans, which is ultimately what we are trying to reach, I will leave you with this article from what seems like ages ago.

Most of us who are out int he trenches were counting on this, and our stomachs dropped when Biden announced for reelection. Why? Because we aren't ONLY reading in our bubble, some of use our "bubbles" to help salve the wounds, but we are actually out in the real world.

Take a little look at history from not so long ago but feels like ages ago.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/1 ... erm-082129

sad-cafe · #53

agreed

realist · #54

Foggy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 7:15 am Nonsense. Busterbunker, you and I disagree, and I apologize for maybe being a little strident on the subject but I'm not merging or deleting anything you want to say. Yeah, this thread is a little duplicative, but that's OK today. I realized the day you started it that you were upset and needed to start a new thread. I do respect you and have never edited or deleted a word you've written. And I read your posts with interest and in all seriousness.

Maybe some people will force Joe out. Maybe they won't.

But crabbing about how I run this small website is very different from addressing the question above, which is, WHAT IS THE PLAN.

What is the plan for AFTER people force Biden out against his will, and after he already won the nomination?

Flatpoint High · #55

: v7fo043gridd1.png (498.36 KiB) Viewed 512 times

#56

The man has signed on competent to amazing Cabinet members and gotten many critical things done despite a hostile House and some very compromised senators. One bad ("DISASTROUS") debate performance (btw, not everyone on twitter watching thought it was bad) possibly due to being travel tired, and he can't win, shouldn't run, should step down. Crickets about the guy who's had signs of increasing dementia for years, is a compulsive liar, and who had possibly one of the most corrupt Cabinets ever (Zinke, anyone?).

Possibly the same people who were taken by surprise when he snuck ahead and won the 2020 nomination.

And whoever's on the ballot-there's going to be FRAUD. And a lot of it's going to come from the House.

#57

Republicans and MAGA are in Unity.
Democrats are in Chaos.

We're just over 3 months from election day. Less time when you consider early in-person voting and mail ballots.

There is simply no time to retool the campaign with a new candidate at the top of the ticket and to find a VP.

busterbunker · #58

Sorry Mr. Foggy, I'm not crabbing at you, nor did I realize you were directing those questions to me. I honestly don't have the answers, a plan or any influence whatsoever. I'm just reading the writing on the wall. Like this guy, he says it better than me:

Joe Biden’s Gaza Problem: It’s Not Just the Pundit Class That Wants Him Gone
https://lithub.com/joe-bidens-gaza-prob ... -him-gone/

That Biden has refused to place even the most modest of conditions upon military aid to a country whose army has been carrying out some of the worst atrocities in living memory, even though doing so would have saved the lives of countless Palestinian civilians without significantly damaging the diplomatic relationship between the US and Israel, is seen by many young progressive voters as unforgivable. I’m one of them. I’ll vote for Harris. I’ll vote for Whitmer. I’ll vote for Michelle Obama. I’ll vote for Gavin “French Laundry” Newsom. I’ll vote for a department store mannequin in a Hubert Humphrey t-shirt if it means keeping Trump out of the White House. But I will not vote for Joe Biden, and (for what little anecdotal evidence is ever worth) I’ve spoken to many people who feel the same way.

The loudest calls for Biden’s removal are not coming from a small cabal of embittered, middle-aged, Beltway pundits—the “powerful, high-status white men” of which Solnit speaks. They’re coming, and have for months been coming, from a diverse caucus of Americans who have watched in horror as the man they were told (over and over and over again) stands for “decency” used their tax dollars to turn the Gaza Strip into a killing field. A man who flew to Israel to physically embrace one of the most remorseless butchers of the modern age. A man whose zealotry and vanity is driving the country back into the arms of a fascist grotesque.

Joe Biden will be ousted, either by his own party in coming days or by the voters in November.

Or perhaps the International Court of Justice, as it announced today:

Top UN court says Israel’s presence in occupied Palestinian territories is illegal and should end
https://apnews.com/article/icj-court-is ... 35859f2316

The judges pointed to a wide list of policies, including the building and expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and east Jerusalem, use of the area’s natural resources, the annexation and imposition of permanent control over lands and discriminatory policies against Palestinians, all of which it said violated international law.

The court said Israel had no right to sovereignty in the territories, was violating international laws against acquiring territory by force and was impeding Palestinians’ right to self-determination. It said other nations were obliged not to “render aid or assistance in maintaining” Israel’s presence in the territories. It said Israel must end settlement construction immediately and that existing settlements must be removed, according to a summary of the more than 80-page opinion read out by court President Nawaf Salam.

It might not be a bad idea to listen to them. Wishful thinking!

Suranis · #59

neonzx wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 7:03 pm Republicans and MAGA are in Unity.
Democrats are in Chaos.

We're just over 3 months from election day. Less time when you consider early in-person voting and mail ballots.

There is simply no time to retool the campaign with a new candidate at the top of the ticket and to find a VP.

And no-one wants to talk about the fact that the Turnip made a totally unhinged speech which is probably one of the first time a lot of people have heard him in the sheer blubbering craziness that he has exhibited every rally for years now. But everyone wants to keep screaming about one debate night a month ago to distract from that crazy performance

Pathetic, honestly.

Again, you have an election to win. Switching to Harris now will doom you. Even the most ardent voter will laugh at you.

And I'm sorry, there is worse stuff going on in the countries around Israel right now than what's going on in Gaza, even to other Palestinians. Herding Palestinians into concentration camps to starve them to death counts as an atrocity. Calling Gaza "some of the worst atrocities in living memory," is total hyperbole, and in any case people are correctly blaming the Israeli Goverment for what they are doing there, rather than Joe fucking Biden. The only difference between Gaza and, for example, Syria is that Gaza has been carpeted in TV Cameras, and people in the area like saying Jews are bad.

Saying Biden is going to lose because of Gaza is simply Incorrect.

Suranis · #60

I was looking at Newsweek and I was yet another "Theres one way Biden can save democracy without dropping out" line among the chorus of "please go away and let us win" opinions.

This was written Yesterday the 19th, https://www.newsweek.com/how-biden-can- ... on-1927772

After the usual "i;m not a republican and the media are all liberals and they are taking over everything and Trump is somone I only think about voting for 50% of the time and its the dems fault I do, so I'm unbiased" BS, She offers this solution;

Ask Vice President Kamala Harris to resign
Choose a moderate Republican running mate
Run on a mixed ticket (or rather, an independent ticket as both parties will likely disown both candidates) comprised of a moderate Democrat (Biden) and a moderate Republican

Fuck sake. People listen to these dungbats?

bob · #61

I’ll vote for a department store mannequin in a Hubert Humphrey t-shirt if it means keeping Trump out of the White House. But I will not vote for Joe Biden

Due to electoral math, not voting for Biden is effectively a vote for the Republican nominee.

* * *

Or perhaps the International Court of Justice

The United States doesn't recognize the ICJ's jurisdiction, so it won't be doing anything to Biden.

#62

bob wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 10:29 pm
I’ll vote for a department store mannequin in a Hubert Humphrey t-shirt if it means keeping Trump out of the White House. But I will not vote for Joe Biden
Due to electoral math, not voting for Biden is effectively a vote for the Republican nominee.

* * *

Or perhaps the International Court of Justice
The United States doesn't recognize the ICJ's jurisdiction, so it won't be doing anything to Biden.

And what these same idiots don't seem to understand is that Trump would not only double the amount of support we already give to Israel to make certain they destroy every last living Palestinian.

I will vote for whoever is on the Democratic ticket. And I will continue making phone calls, knocking on doors, and doing everything in my power to try to prevent Trump from getting in that White House again. Regardless of what decision Biden makes.

busterbunker · #63

"Due to electoral math, not voting for Biden is effectively a vote for the Republican nominee."

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to tell ya! And some of the Dems in Congress are getting worried they will go down with him.

"Saying Biden is going to lose because of Gaza is simply Incorrect."

Sure, he could lose for a lot of other reasons. And maybe he can win. But there was a fork in the road, he and/or his cabinet chose their path and it's too late to reverse direction. We'll check the exit polls in November.

"And what these same idiots don't seem to understand is that Trump would not only double the amount of support we already give to Israel to make certain they destroy every last living Palestinian."

Idiots? The college kids know this. Don't insult them. Maybe you haven't been listening. You're asking them to vote for one form of genocide or another. The body count has already been declared verboten. And they are the ones who will be paying for the death and destruction with their taxpayer dollars. Maybe when Trump is sending the bombs and thumbing his nose at the UN, we can shake and hands and be on the same side again.

Let's just say you live in the middle of the woods and you are a few months away from fire season. You create defensible space around your building. Maybe there won't be a fire, it's still a good idea. No matter where you live, it might be time to consider Trump-proofing.

Suranis · #64

Again, College Kids don't vote, for whatever reason.

So, its not a great indicator of toastedness imo. Assuming that the indicators of their opinion is accurate.

busterbunker · #65

"Again, College Kids don't vote, for whatever reason."

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/20 ... 0-victory/
Behind Biden’s 2020 Victory

After decades of constituting the majority of voters, Baby Boomers and members of the Silent Generation made up less than half of the electorate in 2020 (44%), falling below the 52% they constituted in both 2016 and 2018. Gen Z and Millennial voters favored Biden over Trump by margins of about 20 points, while Gen Xers and Boomers were more evenly split in their preferences. Gen Z voters, those ages 23 and younger, constituted 8% of the electorate, while Millennials and Gen Xers made up 47% of 2020 voters.

Footnote: Gen Z is defined here as voters born between 1997 and 2002, Millennials were born between 1981 and 1996, Gen Xers were born between 1965 and 1980, Baby Boomers were born between 1946 and 1964, and members of the Silent Generation were born between 1928 and 1945.

Don't piss on your kids when you're living in a paper house with very thin margins, like the battlegrounds Biden flipped in 2020. Unless you're trying to prove my point, maybe you are.

#66

As I understand it, your point is that Biden should drop out with the Democrats having exactly no plan whatsoever and no candy date chosen to replace him. Which means utter chaos at the convention, and a nominee who was too fearful to run against Joe Biden in the primaries and caucuses, but Biden will be forced out against his will and required to campaign for his replacement. Or if Joe stays in the race, he might lose.

Or is there some other point you're making?

#67

Of course Biden will be required to campaign for his replacement, even though he was forced out somehow. What, doesn't he care who wins the election? The whole point is to beat Donald Trump, of course he has to campaign for whoever the Democratic nominee eventually is. He's not dead, we're not putting him out to pasture quite yet, he's the President of the United States, and he'll be asked to campaign as hard as he can for the new kid. Otherwise he doesn't care about beating Donald Trump and he doesn't care about the Democratic Party, and we can't have that.

He'll have to make speeches. He'll have to make appearances and do interviews on the Tee Vee. Why, it's almost like he could be campaigning for president, except everybody wants him to quit campaigning for president and start campaigning for somebody else to be president. Somebody he didn't choose and doesn't want to replace him. After he already won enough pledged delegates to win the nomination in a sane world.

All in all, it's a perfect plan, it just needs to plan itself.

Ben-Prime · #68

This argument is starting to remind me of the old management joke about how *bad* leaders confidently walk into a room and say "The solution is to drain the ocean!" "Well, okay, but how?" "Hey, I've already come up with the concept, now it's on you guys to make happen."

#69

From Suranis's post above, from Newsweek:

Ask Vice President Kamala Harris to resign
Choose a moderate Republican running mate
Run on a mixed ticket (or rather, an independent ticket as both parties will likely disown both candidates) comprised of a moderate Democrat (Biden) and a moderate Republican

The beauty of this one is that it leaves Joe Biden on the ballot. It's exactly what AOC and others are saying - the elites aren't really afraid of Biden, but they're determined to be rid of the black lady. It's disgusting.

#70

Foggy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2024 7:36 am From Suranis's post above, from Newsweek:

Ask Vice President Kamala Harris to resign
Choose a moderate Republican running mate
Run on a mixed ticket (or rather, an independent ticket as both parties will likely disown both candidates) comprised of a moderate Democrat (Biden) and a moderate Republican
The beauty of this one is that it leaves Joe Biden on the ballot. It's exactly what AOC and others are saying - the elites aren't really afraid of Biden, but they're determined to be rid of the black lady. It's disgusting.

Black twitter influencers noticed.

Suranis · #71

busterbunker wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:34 am
Don't piss on your kids when you're living in a paper house with very thin margins, like the battlegrounds Biden flipped in 2020. Unless you're trying to prove my point, maybe you are.

The other thing that I wrote but then deleated is - don't mistake the noises of a very loud tiny minority of college age people with the positions of the minority. Anyone that wasn't going to vote or would vote for Trump because of Gaza wasn't going to vote for Biden anyway. They would just have found another excuse to do it.

Most young people will look at Gaza and put the blame where it belongs, The Israelis and Hamas. Blaming Biden for yet another round of a Conflict that has been going on for over a century is irrational, and people really are not that irrational.

AND, despite what people were screaming back then about Young people and Bernie, Bernie lost by bigger numbers than Trump did despite a smaller electorate. Saying that a guy who lost to Hillary by 3.6 Million votes would have beaten the guy that lost to Hillary by 2.7 Million votes is stupid.

Theres other things in that Pew article that go against what youa re trying to say as well

One somewhat unusual aspect of the 2016 election was the relatively high share of voters (nearly 6%) who voted for one of the third-party candidates (mostly the Libertarian and Green Party nominees), a fact many observers attributed to the relative unpopularity of both major party candidates. By comparison, just 2% of voters chose a third-party candidate in 2020. Overall, third-party 2016 voters who turned out in 2020 voted 53%-36% for Biden over Trump, with 10% opting for a third-party candidate. Among the 5% of Republicans who voted third-party in 2016 and voted in 2020, a majority (70%) supported Trump in 2020, but 18% backed Biden. Among the 5% of Democrats who voted third-party in 2016 and voted in 2020, just 8% supported Trump in 2020 while 85% voted for Biden.

There are no real third party alternatives this time around, apart from Robert Kennedy who has flatlined despite the desperate attempts of the Media to prop him up.

There also the fact that Trump support gained among white women compared with his vote in 2016...

In 2016, Trump won White men by 30 points (62% to 32%). That gap narrowed to a 17-point margin for Trump in 2020 (57% to 40%). White women, a group sometimes categorized as swing voters and who broke nearly evenly in 2016 (47% for Trump to 45% for Clinton), favored him in 2020 (53% to 46%).

So, white men saved the republic last time around. (And got 0% of the credit)

Considering everyone is now screaming that "WOMEN ARE GOING TO PUNISH TRUMP THIS TIME AROUND BECAUSE OF ROE AND AND AND!! HANDMAIDENS!!!", that alone should counteract any Gaza unmentionables that exist. Right? So, he not toast?

Oh, and Trump gained ground in your precious College kids last time around, and Biden still crushed him.

Generation Z (those ages 18 to 23 in 2020) and the Millennial generation (ages 24 to 39 in 2020) – favored Biden over Trump by a margin of 20 percentage points, though Trump gained 8 points among Millennials compared with his 2016 performance.

So, he not toast?

Etc etc. As people on this forum have found out, don't give me access to data, especially articles you have been quoted a paragraph of and haven't read yourself. I'll read it and find what it actually says.

What do you mean "I cherry pick stuff that agrees with me and be eeeevil!" How dare you accuse me of such scandalous behaviour!

bob · #72

Biden did lose young progressives over Gaza. They squarely blame him for everything Israel does, and everything the United States doesn't do.

And Biden's policy choices in this area likely are guided by a degree of politics, both domestic and international.

But catering policy to the young progressives would come at a significant cost, both domestic and international. And Democrats are well aware their broad coalition of interests sometimes has wings with different, competing desires.

And for those that Gaza is not the primary focus, they can see a Biden alternative (i.e., the Republican nominee) will be massively objectively worse for Gaza.

All of which is to say, there's no way Biden leaves the ticket and Democratic base somehow increases. His exit, if lucky, might not lose voters. But his exit likely would result in a net loss of voters, so why voluntarily do that?

#73

bob wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2024 11:58 am Biden did lose young progressives over Gaza. They squarely blame him for everything Israel does, and everything the United States doesn't do.\

You are correct, and they consider him a neoliberal hawk, just like H. Clinton (and a hawk like everyone associated with Shrub). It's the finely nuanced view of the young and inexperienced. I had it once, when I believe the president and other leaders should do the right thing, which was obvious to me-without any grasp of what needs to be weighed and considered. No, Biden likes to kill people. -30-

SuzieC · #74

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2024/7 ... agram-Live

Has anyone seen AOC's Instagram chat? She tells us what is really going on. The donor class wants to get rid of Biden AND Harris, so Trump coasts to election unopposed.

bob · #75

I'm seeing variants on this: