The Republic of Ireland

[neonzx]

[northland10]

It is, trust me. It's the biggest danger to my Cholesterol.

This thread is making my cholesterol level go up.

[neonzx]

It is, trust me. It's the biggest danger to my Cholesterol.

This thread is making my cholesterol level go up.

The sodium level is more an issue.

[qbawl]

Two to go and a large covfefe, please!

[Sam the Centipede]

The referendum (happening on Friday, International Women's Day) seems to be concerning plenty of people. BBC Northern Ireland News has a piece about it: Irish referendum: Confusion and debate ahead of constitution votes

There are fears of low turn-out. Perhaps too many people see it as only editing for style, whereas other constitutional amendments have directly affected people's rights? The Guardian reports the concern of the taioseach (= prime minister, the head of government, the president is the head of state) Ireland will take ‘step backwards’ if it votes against constitution changes, says Varadkar

I think Varadkar is correct insofar as pandering to the church's naysayers and their unhinged "the sky will fall on our heads" nonsense would be a reversal of the good sense, progressiveness and humanity shown by Ireland's voters in the previous referendum (the one mainly on abortion rights). Of course, some still think a bunch of mythicists and mysogynists in clown suits ranting from their pulpits as directed by old geezers with big hats has a place in a rational world. They are wrong. Even if they were correct, those clowns have explicitly abdicated from those family and caring roles, they have chosen to be irrelevant to this aspect. Except in telling other people what to do (is that bullying?).

A more nuanced criticism comes from the "not enough" side of the debate. Ireland's constitution says, in effect, "families are important, support families!" Uncontroversial one might think. The proposed amendments aim to strip out sexist and overly traditional aspects of the wording of those articles, relatively minor adjustments. But disabled rights campaigners are apparently worried that the revised constitution underplays the role of the community and state in caring for vulnerable people. It's not just the family that cares.

I don't have skin in the game (not Irish, not in Ireland, not disabled), but clearly changes to Ireland's constitution are more accessible than to that of the USA. It seems to me that a better strategy for the disability etc. lobby is to accept these progressive changes and push for further enhancement on community roles in a later referendum campaign. A "no" now might stymie further progress.

We shall see. It could be interesting!

[Suranis]

I think Varadkar is correct insofar as pandering to the church's naysayers and their unhinged "the sky will fall on our heads" nonsense would be a reversal of the good sense, progressiveness and humanity shown by Ireland's voters in the previous referendum (the one mainly on abortion rights). Of course, some still think a bunch of mythicists and mysogynists in clown suits ranting from their pulpits as directed by old geezers with big hats has a place in a rational world. They are wrong. Even if they were correct, those clowns have explicitly abdicated from those family and caring roles, they have chosen to be irrelevant to this aspect. Except in telling other people what to do (is that bullying?).

*vomits*

Wow, there is so much wrong there that all I can do is quote "My Cousin Vinny"

"Everything that guy just said is bullshit."

For one reason - if there is anything that has been mentioned less than Extraterrestrials in the debates I've overheard here and there, it's the Catholic Church.

But that's ok. If the vote fails they will talk about how everyone is still so intolerant and How its all the Churches fault, rather than the fact that people in Ireland saw through the bullshit. Because everyone started off with "If it was just about tolerance and modernity, why didn they just have a referendum to replace the word "mother" with "parent" and call it a day? Why all the other shit? Why did they shoot down amendments that would crystalize the "Tolerance" aspect, that were proposed by people who normally you would class as hating the Catholic Church? Why insist on this weird wording?"

But that's ok, its all the Catholic Churches fault. Nice having a group you can hate and blame for everything without being called a -phone and an -ist, isn't it? Maybe the Catholics should launch Space Lazers.

Thanks for the Bigotry.

[Sam the Centipede]

Ah well, the truth is sometimes painful!

You're correct that the result of the referendum (either way) will probably be mapped into analyses of or speculation about the RC church's influence, but that is a self-inflicted consequence of the excessive influence that that organisation has had in Ireland's history over the centuries and its continuing attempts to retard social progress, exemplified by its negative pronouncements in this and the previous referendum campaigns, always (as you say you are) for the status quo ante. The impact of churches in most western and northern European countries is less considered in political debate because their influence has been mitigated over the years. In Scandinavia the views and statements of religious leaders (both established churches and other sects and faiths) are reported as commentary,, nothing more. In France and Britain church leaders' musings sometimes cause amusement. Other countries I'm less sure of, although in some – Poland for example – the churches appear to still hold an unhealthy sway.

I might not have your local knowledge of Ireland but neither am I blinded and overly energised by frenzied devotion to a bizarre institution, whose attractions and merits are invisible to me while clearly important and defining to you. That is your right. People are entitled to their delusions, that's religious and political freedom!

Ultimately Not My Problem. I hope for a yes vote because it is the right, just and fair result, but the people of Ireland will decide and deal with the consequences of their decision.

[Suranis]

Ah well, the truth is sometimes painful! Blah blah neither am I blinded and overly energised by frenzied devotion to a bizarre institution, blah blah

Wow. That has to be the finest piece of Self gratification I've ever seen. Even the Orange Turnip would be hard pressed to blow his own member in such a fashion. Well done.

I guess you cant even consider what is actually happening as you wouldn't be able to bear getting knocked off that pedestal, so I'll leave you to your delusions. Or, as someone said, it is difficult to persuade someone of the Truth if their salary (or in this case, your delusions of superiority) depends on them not believing it. Enjoy kissing that mirror.

Oh, as an aside, they didn't think the Earth was flat in the Middle Ages either.

[Uninformed]

I know almost nothing about the proposed constitutional amendment(s) in Ireland.

I do know that the Church of England has 26 bishops (not including those who have retired and have a peerage) in the House of Lords. Although a very small percentage of the Lords (currently 784 sitting) they remain an influence in UK politics.

[Suranis]

Don't think any religion has reps on our version of the Senate, but I honestly don't know.

On the Referendum, turnout seems to be around the 25% mark, from whats being said on the news.

[Suranis]

There appears to have been a late evening surge in Voting, so turnout is now estimated to be somewhere in the 38% mark.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/referendu ... es-1649853

No news on results yet.

[Suranis]

Well the official results are not in but the result is known. Both Referenda have been comprehensively defeated, in some places by a factor of three to one.

[Uninformed]

“Ireland referendums: Leo Varadkar says defeat is clear”:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68484651

“Taoiseach (Irish Prime Minister) Leo Varadkar says "it is clear" that two referendums have been defeated.
Counting is continuing with results from some constituencies filtering through on proposed changes to the Irish Constitution.
Early indications show significant numbers of 'no' votes.
One change could alter the definition of family to include those not based on marriage, while the other could remove reference to women in the home.
In the first results announced, Cork South Central voted against the family amendment, while Dún Laoghaire voted narrowly in favour.
In Cork South Central, 61.4% voted 'no' and 38.6% voted 'yes'.
Meanwhile, in Dún Laoghaire, 50.3% voted 'yes' and 49.7% voted 'no'.

Quite a lengthy article.

[Suranis]

Seems to have been rejected completely across the board. They cant point to any area or group to blame. The majority of everyone seems to have given it the boot.

[Suranis]

Holy Moly. "Giving it the boot" seems to be the understatement of the day. This has been an utter shellacking.

Result on the "Family" Referendum

YES 32.3%, 487,564 VOTES

NO 67.7%, 1,021,546 VOTES

Constituency breakdown https://www.rte.ie/news/referendum-39th ... #/national

The "Care" Referendum

YES 26.1%, 393,053 VOTES

NO 73.9%, 1,114,620 VOTES

Constituency breakdown https://www.rte.ie/news/referendum-40th ... #/national

Overall turnout has been 44.4%. For the record, I didn't vote as I didn't have a voting card for some reason.

People on TV are asking meaningless questions like "What are the consequences for the Government?" I don't think there will be any. I think they will just want to make this Referendum go away. The Government wants it to be forgotten about, the Opposition parties (They all supported it) want it forgotten about, the Media probably wants it forgotten about. It will fade away like Mist.

[pipistrelle]

Isn’t that a high turnout for something like this?

[Suranis]

Isn’t that a high turnout for something like this?

I think it's on the low side but not by a huge amount. I looked at this website that gives data on the various referenda in Ireland, and the average seems to be around the 50% mark. Ireland does tend to have a decent turnout for Elections, around 73% I think

https://electionsireland.org/results/referendum/

[Suranis]

I haven't watched it, but it probably leaves out that he was a disaster as minister for Health, and people were calling for his resignation till he shut them up by announcing he was homosexual and then it became practically illegal to critisise him. Seriously, it was literally "hes a complete idiot" to "What a fine courageous gentleman" inside an hour.

Anyway, a few weeks ago I read a story that he was on the shortlist for a big job in the European Union, so he is probably giving Ireland a hearty "Sod off" on his way to the Airport.

He leaves behind a party that is literally tearing itself apart. Over the last few months 10 Fina Gael deputies have announced they are not contesting the next General Election, due later this year. It is on the front page of the local weekly paper (The Limerick Leader) this morning that 3 Fine Gael County Councilers have pulled out of the running for the Limerick mayoral Candidacy in protest at the Shambles the central Fina Gael office has made of selecting a Candidate for the Limerick Mayoral Elections, and the remaining Candidate is saying he is not even sure about running. So ya, total disaster as Party leader.

As a Prime Minister he was... honestly, it would be dishonest for me to rate him as I haven't been keeping an eye on Irish politics that much. I really dont know enough to comment. However, He did do a very good job at dealing with Covid-19, so props for that.

Onwards and sideways.

[Suranis]

This explains the process of choosing the Party Leader of Fine Gael.

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/202 ... taoiseach/

The first guy to out and out declare his nomination is Simon Harris.

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/202 ... ship-race/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Harris_(politician)

His record as a minister has been mixed, but he can at least he said to be battle=tested.

A lot of politicians have declared they are NOT in, and he is currently unopposed.

[Suranis]

[Mr brolin]

It would appear that the rose colored spectacle view of Sinn fein and associated unification fellow travellers is, shall we say, somewhat er, full of merde and stuff.

New report out by the Institute of International and European Affairs (IIEA) estimates that in the (somewhat unlikely) event of a North-South unification, the costs are estimated as being at least €8bn (£6.86bn) a year rising to potentially €20bn (£17.15bn) a year.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/ireland/ ... 2SB6KWSII/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-68723508

Considering how the economy of the South for the last few decades (the Celtic Tiger) was and continues to have been driven by offering low low business taxes and costs to international companies, which have come under very rigorous scrutiny by the EU, this could end up being a massive hit in Eire's GDP.

SDLP and Sinn Fein ministers etc seem to be of the opinion that the actual way it would work is

A. They tell the British Government to "Feck Off, but leave your wallet, cash and credit cards on the mantelpiece whilst you Feck Off!"

B. As if by magic, unification will bring in a magical world of massively increased productivity, huge influxes of imaginary capital by all these international companies wanting to nominally base themselves out of Ireland for tax purposes

C. Daddy and Mummy EU will fall over themselves to subsidise the "All New Joined Up Ireland" for....EVAH!, mumble mumble...Brexit effect in reverse....mumble mumble imaginary EU and Joined up Eire growth etc etc.

Something I feel likely to be, shall we say, somewhat optimistic

[Tiredretiredlawyer]

Why can't we all just get along?

[Sam the Centipede]

I might be wrong on this, but I think Northern Ireland has a disproportionate (on the high side) number of UK government sector employees. On unification, that work and thus those jobs would presumably be repatriated to Great Britain, probably to areas which need more jobs. Or the jobs would be lost to AI perhaps. But they'll leave NI.

Clearly some government employees provide services for local consumption so they would presumably be retrained to provide corresponding services for the republic. But not those doing work for GB that was allocated to NI as part of a strategy to boost its economy and hopefully improve stability.

As many countries (Germany, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Russia, USSR, Korea, Vietnam, etc.) have found, both marriage and divorce can be expensive and difficult.

[RTH10260]

Rwanda Bill causing migrants to head for Ireland instead of UK, says Irish deputy PM

Sky News
26 Apr 2024

The threat of deportation to Rwanda is causing migrants to head for Ireland instead of the UK, Ireland's Deputy Prime Minister Micheál Martin has said.

The Rwanda Bill, which will see asylum seekers "entering the UK illegally" sent to the central African nation - regardless of the outcome of their application - was passed earlier this week, despite human rights concerns.

It comes amid increasing tension over immigration levels in Ireland, which is grappling with a housing crisis that has affected its own people as well as asylum seekers.

article at https://news.sky.com/story/rwanda-bill- ... s-13123078