Oxford, Michigan, School Shooting

#52

https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-express ... d=83597116

Judge expresses 'great concern' of mistrial for parents of alleged Oxford high school shooter
"I'm trying to avoid your rights being implicated in a negative way."

Expressing "great concern" of a mistrial happening, a judge said Tuesday that she is appointing an independent counsel for the parents of alleged Michigan school shooter Ethan Crumbley to explain potential conflicts of interest the couple could encounter by sharing attorneys from the same law firm.

During a brief hearing Tuesday morning, Judge Cheryl Matthews told the Crumbleys she will appoint each of them an attorney to advise them, not necessarily to replace their current lawyers.

"Joint representation of co-defendants charged in criminal matters by attorneys from the same law firm is uncommon," Matthews told the couple. "There is great concern that there may be a conflict of interest as incompatibility positions may arise at any moment."

The issue was first raised by prosecutors, who filed a motion arguing that if convicted the Crumbleys could seek an appeal based on a conflict of interest from the representation of either of their attorneys.

#53

I heard on the radio yesterday that they are going to continue to hold Crumbley the younger, age fifteen, in adult jail. And that the decision will be reviewed every 30-days per state law. FYI. His lawyers cited the isolation as being detrimental to him, but there was an email Crumbley had sent saying that he had it pretty sweet with his own TV and the guards were cool to him, so the judge was like no. That's lawyerspeak. Like no, he stays in the adult pokey.

Kendra · #54

https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/19/us/ethan ... wyvCewgS4Q

(CNN)Jennifer and James Crumbley, the parents of Michigan school shooting suspect Ethan Crumbley, have asked a judge to void the charges against them for their alleged roles in the November 30 shooting at Oxford High School that left four students dead.

The parents have pleaded not guilty to four counts of involuntary manslaughter after prosecutors accused them of giving their son easy access to a gun and disregarding signs that he was a threat.

Attorneys for the Crumbleys said in court documents that the charges have no legal justification and that the couple should not be held responsible for the killings their son is accused of committing.

"The Crumbleys did not counsel [Ethan] in the commission of the school shooting or act jointly with the [Ethan] in any way; to the contrary, the Crumbleys had no knowledge that their son intended to commit multiple homicides...Nor did any common enterprise exist," attorneys Shannon Smith and Mariell Lehman wrote. "Certainly, if the prosecution could directly link Mr. or Mrs. Crumbley to the mass shooting, they would be prosecuted for first-degree murder as if they had directly committed the offense. However, because the prosecution cannot support such a claim, they are left attempting to fit a square peg in a round hole, and the information must be quashed."

RTH10260 · #55

James, Jennifer Crumbley ask appeals court to toss case: Our son did this, not us

Tresa Baldas, Detroit Free Press
Tue, July 19, 2022 at 11:20 PM

James and Jennifer Crumbley are seeking intervention from the Michigan Court of Appeals, arguing they never should have been charged in a school shooting that was carried out by their son.

In a filing late Monday with the appeals court, defense attorneys for the Crumbleys argue that the parents cannot be held accountable for the actions of their son, that there are no legal grounds to charge them, and that they had no idea he would commit such an act.

"(Ethan Crumbley's) criminal conduct was the sole cause of harm to the victims," defense lawyers argue in the filing, maintaining the prosecution is trying to make an example out of the Crumbleys when the law doesn't support it.

"Certainly, if the prosecution could directly link Mr. or Mrs. Crumbley to the mass shooting, they would be prosecuted for first-degree murder as if they had directly committed the offense," the defense writes. "However, because the prosecution cannot support such a claim, they are left attempting to fit a square peg into a round hole."

That's because what the prosecution is really trying to do is reform gun laws and make an example out of the Crumbleys, the defense maintains, alleging their clients are wrongfully being prosecuted for an issue that belongs in the Legislature.

"The desire to hold someone accountable for the tragedy that occurred at Oxford High School on November 30, 2021, is certainly understandable, but '[t]he temptation to stretch the law to fit the evil is an ancient one, and it must be resisted,' " the defense writes, citing case law. " ... there can be little doubt that the charges against Mr. and Mrs. Crumbley ... are borne out of a desire to hold persons accountable for criminal acts, where no legal justification exists to do so. However, to extend the law in such a way involves important policy decisions of broad social consequences, reaching far beyond this single case. Such a task, then, should be resolved through the legislative process, and not judicial innovation."

Moreover, the defense argues the Crumbleys' case could set a dangerous precedent for parents everywhere.

The Crumbleys are appealing a June 22 order by Oakland County Circuit Court Judge Cheryl Matthews, who, among other things, denied the parents' request that she quash the charges.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/james-jennif ... 06805.html

Dave from down under · #56

ie.

Why should we be accountable for the training and arming our child????...

#57

I watched some of the hearings. At the least, these two should be charged with child neglect: I’m not trying to sound like I sympathize with a killer, according to his text messages with his mother he was screaming for a little bit of parental attention. I was appalled. In some cases he begged her to “answer back”. Which she did. A day later. The parents were too busy riding and caring for their horses to take care of their kid.

#58

RVInit wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:47 pm I watched some of the hearings. At the least, these two should be charged with child neglect: I’m not trying to sound like I sympathize with a killer, according to his text messages with his mother he was screaming for a little bit of parental attention. I was appalled. In some cases he begged her to “answer back”. Which she did. A day later. The parents were too busy riding and caring for their horses to take care of their kid.

Horses = status symbol of wealth they didn't have
Child = burden

#59

xpost

RTH10260 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:23 pm
Teenager to Plead Guilty to Terrorism and Murder in Michigan School Shooting
The student is expected to plead guilty on Monday. The attack at Oxford High School killed four students.

By Stephanie Saul
Oct. 21, 2022, 3:44 p.m. ET

The student accused of waging a deadly attack last year in a Michigan high school, killing four students, is expected to plead guilty on Monday to a number of felony charges, including murder and terrorism, the prosecutor in the case said on Friday.

Ethan Crumbley, now 16, is accused of using a gun that was purchased for him as an early Christmas present by his parents, who face involuntary manslaughter charges in connection with the rampage at Oxford High School in Oxford, Mich, last Nov. 30.

In addition to helping him obtain a gun, prosecutors say that the parents, James and Jennifer Crumbley, ignored warning signs that their son was disturbed.

The case is unusual in several ways. If Ethan Crumbley pleads guilty on Monday as expected, he would be the first suspect in a school shooting to be found guilty of terrorism. The prosecution of his parents is also unusual, a rare instance in which parents stand accused of acts that led to a school shooting.

In a statement on Friday, David Williams, the chief assistant prosecutor for Oakland County, Mich., confirmed that Ethan Crumbley was expected to plead guilty to all 24 charges again him. He faces life in prison.

Parents of shooting victims had been notified this week that he was expected to plead guilty.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/21/us/m ... plead.html

#60

I'll bet the parents are happy. He won't cost them any more money.

#61

https://apnews.com/article/crime-shooti ... ae11be5161

DETROIT (AP) — Prosecutors said they’ll seek a life sentence with no chance for parole for a 16-year-old boy who killed four fellow students at a Michigan school and pleaded guilty to murder and terrorism.

They disclosed their plans in a court filing Monday, three weeks after Ethan Crumbley, 16, withdrew a possible insanity defense and acknowledged the shooting at Oxford High School in November 2021.

A first-degree murder conviction typically brings an automatic no-parole sentence in Michigan. But teenagers are entitled to a hearing where their lawyer can raise immaturity, mental health, family life and other issues while arguing for a shorter term.

Crumbley pleaded guilty to all 24 charges. The sentencing process is scheduled to start in February.

#62

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... -lawsuits/

A Michigan judge has ruled the Oxford school district and its employees are immune from civil lawsuits stemming from the 2021 shooting where a 15-year-old student killed four classmates and injured seven other people.

Oakland County Circuit Court Judge Mary Ellen Brennan on Friday cited government immunity in her order dismissing more than half a dozen Oxford High School staffers and the Oxford Community School District from a negligence complaint brought by survivors and families of the deceased, who argued that warning signs of the impending shooting were ignored by staff and parents. That leaves only the Crumbleys — shooter Ethan and his parents, James and Jennifer — as defendants in the complaint.

#63

https://lawandcrime.com/live-trials/liv ... -crumbley/

Lawyers for the parents of the teenage Michigan high school student who killed four teenagers say that allowing prosecutors to pursue manslaughter charges against their clients will put parents statewide at risk of being responsible for their children’s criminal acts.

At a hearing before a three-judge panel of Michigan Court of Appeals judges on Tuesday, defense attorneys for James and Jennifer Crumbley argued that their clients shouldn’t be held criminally liable for their son Ethan Crumbley’s “free and deliberate” attack on his fellow students at Oxford High School in November 2021. The parents were charged with involuntary manslaughter after Ethan Crumbley, then 15, shot and killed four of his schoolmates using a gun given to him by his parents days earlier.

Much of the hearing centered around the causal link between the Crumbley parents’ actions — or inaction — toward their son and the four victims’ deaths.

“But for them not taking him out of the school that day, the event wouldn’t have happened,” Murray said. Lehman responded that the “but for” analysis could be “extended to well beyond where it should be” to potentially nonsensical conclusions, noting that “but for” Ethan Crumbley existing at all, the four students would still be alive.

“When a person commits a free and deliberate shooting of a victim, they become the proximate cause of the victim’s death,” Jennifer Crumbley’s defense attorney Shannon Smith argued to the judges

#64

Michigan school shooter's parents can face trial for manslaughter, court rules

DETROIT — The parents of a teenager who killed four students at a Michigan high school can face trial for involuntary manslaughter, the state appeals court said Thursday in a groundbreaking case of criminal responsibility for the acts of a child.

The murders would not have happened if the parents hadn't purchased a gun for Ethan Crumbley or if they had taken him home from Oxford High School on the day of the shooting, when staff became alarmed about his extreme drawings, the appeals court said.

The court noted that the legal threshold at this stage of the case is fairly low under Michigan law.

"Whether a jury actually finds that causation has been proven after a full trial, where the record will almost surely be more expansive — including evidence produced by defendants — is an issue separate from what we decide today," the court said in a 3-0 opinion.

Kendra · #65

Good.

#66

Hooray!

Dave from down under · #67

Now a jury can decide on the evidence.

p0rtia · #68

#69

School shooting video and Ethan Crumbley's own words — 'I am the demon' — shock courtroom

School shooter Ethan Crumbley delivered perhaps the most damning and chilling testimony at a hearing Thursday to determine his fate — though not from the witness stand, but through his own video recordings, text messages and journal that detailed his obsession with torturing birds, killing other kids and shooting up his school.

On Thursday, with grieving families in the courtroom, prosecutors played audio clips from a video recording that Crumbley made the night before he carried out the Oxford School shooting in November 2021, a manifesto in which he discusses his hate for the world, his plan to shoot up his school, and his deteriorating mental health.

"I have worn my mask for too long. I can't take it," Crumbley says in a monotone voice. "There’s no voices in my head. The voices are me … that’s what people call the demons. There are no demons. I am the demon."

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/ ... 477332007/

Kendra · #70

CNN shared some clips from the hearing. Scary stuff.

#71

After watching some of the hearings regarding Crumbley's parents I am convinced they are at least as culpable as he is. And also convinced that had they paid one fucking minute of attention to that kid he may not not have killed anyone. The text messages of him begging his mother to simply answer back to his text are heartbreaking. Prior to going on a killing rampage that kid spent months begging his parents for a tiny bit of attention, per all the text messages. He was clearly becoming more and more desperate for attention, sometimes telling his mother there were ghosts in the kitchen opening all the cabinets and throwing everything around the kitchen. Over time his attempts to get his mother or father to respond to any of his messages were becoming more and more disturbing. Most of his texts were ignored for more than 24 hours before his mother bothered to respond, and when she did it was clear he was an inconvenience to her. His parents spent 4 to 6 hours per day at the stables tending to their horse and riding. Ethan was terrified of the horses and wouldn't go with them. They chose their horse over their child. And that kid finally committed an act that got him some attention. All those innocent people paid the price for the Crumbley's failure as parents.

His parents should spend the rest of their lives in prison. As much as I'm against the death penalty I believe I would seriously consider the death penalty for his sorry excuse for parents.

Kendra · #72

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/29/us/ethan ... index.html

Ethan Crumbley, the teen gunman who killed four students at Oxford High School, is eligible for life imprisonment without parole – the harshest possible punishment in Michigan, a judge ruled Friday.

Crumbley, now 17, was 15 when he opened fire at the school on November 30, 2021. He has pleaded guilty to one count of terrorism causing death, four counts of first-degree murder and 19 other charges related to the deadly rampage.

In addition to the four students killed, seven people were shot and wounded – including a teacher.

On Friday, Oakland County Circuit Court Judge Kwamé Rowe said Crumbley is eligible for life in prison without the possibility of parole.

But Crumbley’s fate remains uncertain, as his formal sentencing isn’t scheduled to take place until December 8. While he is eligible for a life sentence without parole, Crumbley could still be given a life sentence with the possibility of parole.

Surviving shooting victims and family members of the victims are expected to give victim impact statements at the sentencing hearing in Pontiac, Michigan, before Rowe hands down Crumbley’s sentence.

#73

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/par ... -103682962

DETROIT -- The parents of a teenager who killed four students at Michigan's Oxford High School lost an appeal Tuesday and will face trial on involuntary manslaughter charges, a rare case of prosecutors attempting to pin some responsibility for a school shooting on the perpetrator's family.

James and Jennifer Crumbley are accused of making a gun accessible to Ethan Crumbley and ignoring his mental health needs. The state appeals court said in March that the couple could face trial, and the Michigan Supreme Court let that decision stand in a one-sentence order.

Prosecutors in suburban Detroit had to show only that there was probable cause to put the parents on trial, a low threshold at this stage. The appeals court noted that an Oakland County jury will hear a more expansive case from all sides.

Maybenaut · #74

This case is heartbreaking. I actually think Crumbley, Jr. *might* fit the definition of insanity under Michigan law, which is slightly different from most states and the federal government in that it is also a defense if the defense can prove by a preponderance of the evidence that he “lacks the substantial capacity to confirm his conduct to the law.”

So, even if he knew what he was doing and knew that it was wrong (the M’Naughten Test), if, because of his mental illness it was more likely than not that he couldn’t *not* shoot those people, he’d meet the definition of insanity. I don’t know if it would have succeeded, but if I were on his jury I’d at least give it serious consideration.

I know he waived all of that by pleading guilty, so, you know, whatever.

Anyway, when a person is found not guilty by reason of insanity, it doesn’t mean they get to just walk out of prison. In most jurisdictions they’re committed for an indeterminate period of time until it is determined that they’re no longer a danger. For most people, that can be many, many years.

I’ve had a couple of clients like him. Seemingly random, heinous crimes, didn’t really know why they committed them.

I’m not trying to talk anybody into anything. These cases just make me really, really, really sad.

#75

Maybenaut wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 5:18 pm This case is heartbreaking. I actually think Crumbley, Jr. *might* fit the definition of insanity under Michigan law, which is slightly different from most states and the federal government in that it is also a defense if the defense can prove by a preponderance of the evidence that he “lacks the substantial capacity to confirm his conduct to the law.”

So, even if he knew what he was doing and knew that it was wrong (the M’Naughten Test), if, because of his mental illness it was more likely than not that he couldn’t *not* shoot those people, he’d meet the definition of insanity. I don’t know if it would have succeeded, but if I were on his jury I’d at least give it serious consideration.

I know he waived all of that by pleading guilty, so, you know, whatever.

Anyway, when a person is found not guilty by reason of insanity, it doesn’t mean they get to just walk out of prison. In most jurisdictions they’re committed for an indeterminate period of time until it is determined that they’re no longer a danger. For most people, that can be many, many years.

I’ve had a couple of clients like him. Seemingly random, heinous crimes, didn’t really know why they committed them.

I’m not trying to talk anybody into anything. These cases just make me really, really, really sad.

After watching the hearings for his parents I think the parents are at least as culpable. The whole thing left me so angry and thinking if his parents had paid the slightest bit of attention to this kid I'm not sure he would have done any such thing.

Fogbow