As the N.R.A. continues to implode...

[qbawl]

Have you read the long version Dan? I understand it was basically the original manuscript before the editors got a hold of it. About a third again longer than what was published in 1961.

[Lani]

Robert A. Heinlein wrote Stranger in a Strange Land, and it was published in the early 1960's. To grok is to empathize so deeply that you merge or blend with someone. However, as I recall he also used it to control others.

Also, the author was a bit of a chauvinist, so then I started reading the Darkover series written Marion Zimmer Bradley.

[W. Kevin Vicklund]

Unfortunately, Stranger in A Strange Land kinda broke Heinlein, and in later books he struggled to bring the story to a conclusion (according to my step-father anyway - I've read a fair amount but not all and I'm not sure on the chronology). I will say my peer-group of mid-40 to early-50 sci-fi readers have an understanding of "grok" but younger than that starts getting spotty.

[Danraft]

Well, an alternative tag-line for the proposed podcast is “Embracing the Complicated”.
This is in the context that anyone who really really knows a topic deeply (pronounced expert) will often answer, to what seems like a simple question, with the phrase “it’s complicated” and then unpack the drivers.

On this forum, the best example is Bob (the legal expert) who so very often begins with “it’s complicated.”

It is a nod to the Dunning-Krueger effect of newbies to a topic thinking they “grok” it after only a superficial understanding (yes, I know it goes the other way, too, also).

[keith]

I wasn’t aware the NRA offered insurance. Hmm….

Maybe no longer, I'm sure I've seen ads for it.

Firearms, life, health, accident, travel, property, liability

NRA member benefits

[Slarti the White]

Well, “Grok” is a term from the golden era of Science Fiction (Robert Heinlein) in particular. Stranger in a Strange Land was the book.

Loosely stated (don’t beat me up) is the culture described was eminently rational and when they came across a fact that went against their current world model, they would consider what that did to their world model. They would pause and reconsider the construction of a new model to incorporate that. If small, it was semi-instantaneous. If foundational, they would go into a kind of catatonic state for a few moments as all the downstream consequences of the info was considered.

Grokking means to really understand, in that context.

Off Topic

Not beating you up, just adding nuance to your point...

As Danraft said, when Michael Valentine Smith (the protagonist of Stranger in a Strange Land) came across new information (e.g. empirical evidence or previously unknown facts), he would sort of shut down and "recompile" all of his knowledge to integrate this new information into his worldview. As a result of this, MVS's conceptual model of the universe around him was always entirely logically consistent -- in other words, he was completely rational (and had a much deeper understanding than humans that he learned from the Martians -- it is a Sci-Fi novel, after all).

Logically speaking, this process is necessary for the maintenance and development of ANY rational model, be it a scientific field of study or our own personal worldview. If we do not "recompile" our knowledge from scratch each time our set of facts (i.e. assumptions) changes, then as the complexity of our worldview increases, the probability quickly approaches certainty that we will acquire a contradiction within our model, which means that it is no longer rational (logically speaking, anything can be proven from a contradiction and evolutionarily speaking, we are all masters of motivated reasoning -- you do the math ).

While we've seen this process displayed in excruciating detail in birthers, Trumpists, and other conspiracy theorists, in truth it is something that afflicts not only each of us, but a great number of scientific disciplines as well (don't ask Danraft about Clathrin or we'll get lectured for days, but it is a perfect example of how this can cause serious problems on the bleeding edge of our understanding of human heath). Anyway, I don't have a magic bullet to solve this problem, but it is something that I've done a lot of thinking about -- and that Danraft and I have discussed endlessly. I think that the most important takeaway is that whenever we come to believe that our foundational assumptions are unquestionably correct then we have blinded ourselves to the inevitable contradictions that will occur.

Too. Also, if we are talking about Stranger in a Strange Land on the Fogbow, there is something that should be mentioned. One of the main characters is Jubal Harshaw, a lawyer, medical doctor, author, and general curmudgeon. I have it on good authority that this character was, in fact, based on a real person -- our very own Sterngard Freigen! :geezer: Apparently Stern had a correspondence with Heinlein back in the day and made enough of an impression that he used him as a model for one of his most iconic characters.

[keith]

I think its time for me to read SIASL again for the 3rd or 5th time.

[Sam the Centipede]

I wasn’t aware the NRA offered insurance. Hmm….

Maybe no longer, I'm sure I've seen ads for it.

Firearms, life, health, accident, travel, property, liability

NRA member benefits

I recall observations from a similar discussion in Ur-Fogbow that many gun clubs and gun-owning individuals are members of the NRA because it gives competitive insurance, not necessarily because they have any sympathy with the NRA's "guns! they're great! let's shoot everybody! especially the children!" aims.

[qbawl]

Well, “Grok” is a term from the golden era of Science Fiction (Robert Heinlein) in particular. Stranger in a Strange Land was the book.

Off Topic

Too. Also, if we are talking about Stranger in a Strange Land on the Fogbow, there is something that should be mentioned. One of the main characters is Jubal Harshaw, a lawyer, medical doctor, author, and general curmudgeon. I have it on good authority that this character was, in fact, based on a real person -- our very own Sterngard Freigen! :geezer: Apparently Stern had a correspondence with Heinlein back in the day and made enough of an impression that he used him as a model for one of his most iconic characters.

So just how old is Sterngard anyway? The book was first published in 1961 iirc and I have heard that he began the book many years earlier. I am an old curmudgeon myself but in '61 I was a sophomore in high school so Sterngard must be much older than I thought.

[neonzx]

So just how old is Sterngard anyway? The book was first published in 1961 iirc and I have heard that he began the book many years earlier. I am an old curmudgeon myself but in '61 I was a sophomore in high school so Sterngard must be much older than I thought.

Older, wiser and smarter than all of us schmucks. plus, he has a draw bridge, so he must be an ancient.

[humblescribe]

I think our esteemed colleague, Stern, was graduated from that public law school overlooking the Palisades in the late-sixties, perhaps 1970. That would make him about 8 years older than I, or around 78-ish.

But, that is just a WAG. I am too lazy to look up his date of admittance to the bar and then assume he was 25 when admitted.

[sugar magnolia]

Maybe he was an already established curmudgeon by the age of 20?

[Slarti the White]

Everyone knows that Stern is well over 10,000 years old...

[for those of you who don't know, Stern's extreme age was a recurring meme on the ur-Fogbow]

[Ben-Prime]

Off Topic

I just always assumed Stern was a Prince of Amber, and hence immortal or at least very slow to age.

[RTH10260]

Off Topic

I remember Sterngard chatting with Hamurabi while chipping the codex unto clay tablets

[bob]

[Kendra]

[Phoenix520]

Whoa, am I late to this thread!

My roommates and I had a saying - put it in the grok pot and let it simmer.

[RTH10260]

had to look this guy up

Vivek Ganapathy Ramaswamy is an American entrepreneur, author, and a Republican candidate for president of the United States in 2024. He is the author of Woke, Inc. and Nation of Victims. After working as an investment partner, Ramaswamy founded the biopharmaceutical company Roivant Sciences in 2014.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivek_Ramaswamy

[bob]

Vivek Ganapathy Ramaswamy is an American entrepreneur, author, and a Republican candidate for president of the United States in 2024.

YUP! And the Three Remaining Birthers are gunning for him because, although born in the United States, there's no indication his parents were U.S. citizens when he was born. (Ditto with Haley.)

(Presumably, Ramaswamy will drop out before a court (or other agency) rules him eligible.)

[pipistrelle]

Looked him up. He’s spectacularly unimpressive. There’s not many I say that about.

[northland10]

Vivek Ganapathy Ramaswamy is an American entrepreneur, author, and a Republican candidate for president of the United States in 2024.

YUP! And the Three Remaining Birthers are gunning for him because, although born in the United States, there's no indication his parents were U.S. citizens when he was born. (Ditto with Haley.)

(Presumably, Ramaswamy will drop out before a court (or other agency) rules him eligible.)

They have to go after anybody who might run because they need a ruling that will undo the horror of having Obama as President. It is not about Haley, Harris, Cruz, or Ramaswamy. It's all about that BLACK man with the MUSLIMy name who sat in our WHITE house. They need that bad memory to go away. Obama being president ruins their ideal of pure America.

Oh, and he's a product of a black man having relations with a white woman.

[bob]

They have to go after anybody who might run because they need a ruling that will undo the horror of having Obama as President. It is not about Haley, Harris, Cruz, or Ramaswamy. It's all about that BLACK man with the MUSLIMy name who sat in our WHITE house.

Yes, and they want to prove they're not racist by ... attacking even more people of color.

[Kendra]

Noem: The media would have us believe that the NRA is only made up of old white guys.. But there are a lot of other people. A lot of diversity in the NRA…
*camera switches to audience*

Why is CSpan covering this?

[Kendra]

Thanks to Aaron. That's quite a thread he's set up for us.