Gas

[noblepa]

Of course, they include the cost of the charger for the EV, but not the cost of oil changes or other maintenance. An annual $35 oil change would wipe out the difference.

Yep. And what is the life span of the batteries in an EV? What is the replacement cost when it comes to that? I've never had to replace a gas tank on a car.

Maybe things have gotten better in the last couple of years, but I read somewhere, a few years ago, that the expected life of the batteries in a EV or Hybrid was around 50,000 miles, and that the cost to replace them was north of $3,500.

That has to affect the price of used EV's, or at least it should. If I were considering buying a used EV with more than 25,000 miles on it, I would walk away, unless the owner had receipts showing that the batteries had been replaced recently. An EV or even a Hybrid with batteries that won't hold a charge, is like buying an ICE with no engine, or a blown engine. The car has some value, but no where near what it would with a working engine.

[raison de arizona]

Of course, they include the cost of the charger for the EV, but not the cost of oil changes or other maintenance. An annual $35 oil change would wipe out the difference.

Yep. And what is the life span of the batteries in an EV? What is the replacement cost when it comes to that? I've never had to replace a gas tank on a car.

A better comparison would be replacing the engine, which is at least the same or higher than the cost of a new battery.

• I suspect batteries will need to be replaced more frequently than engines.
• I believe my neighbor recently paid $16k to replace the batteries in their Tesla.

[somerset]

Yep. And what is the life span of the batteries in an EV? What is the replacement cost when it comes to that? I've never had to replace a gas tank on a car.

A better comparison would be replacing the engine, which is at least the same or higher than the cost of a new battery.

• I suspect batteries will need to be replaced more frequently than engines.

I suspect you're wrong.

https://www.evconnect.com/blog/how-long ... ttery-last
https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/ ... eplacement
(admittedly, both of these are very pro-EV).

How Long Does an Electric Car Battery Last?
So the question remains: How long can you expect your EV battery to last? Fortunately for consumers, the government mandates EV manufacturers to warranty batteries for 8 years or 100,000 miles, while California extends that warranty to 10 years or 150,000 miles.

As EV battery packs become cheaper to manufacture, companies can create larger batteries with more energy potential, which in turn increases their mile-range. Additionally, the improved technology reduces the degradation of batteries, meaning that over time the maximum potential stays closer to the new battery. And because newer batteries already have greatly increased in mileage range, as they degrade they will still maintain a longer mileage range than batteries from just a few years ago. Finally, because lithium-ion batteries are made up of many individual cells, you rarely need to replace the entire battery as it degrades. Instead, you can save money by simply replacing dead cells.


How Does EV Battery Longevity Compare to ICE Vehicles?
Both of the mandated warranty numbers (8 years, 100,000 miles) for EV batteries far exceed the average ICE vehicle drivetrain warranty of 5 years or 60,000 miles. The average lifetime mileage of an ICE vehicle is about 133,000 miles. While experts estimate the average EV battery will last around 200,000 miles, some manufacturers already promise much more than that.

[*]I believe my neighbor recently paid $16k to replace the batteries in their Tesla.[/list]

For older cars, especially older Tesla S and Xs, yeah. Newer models are still under warranty. And with EVs, the aftermarket for replacement batteries is still very young and very small. It will grow as time goes on, and prices will come down.

And ask Gregg how much Ford charges for a new F-150 engine

[raison de arizona]

A better comparison would be replacing the engine, which is at least the same or higher than the cost of a new battery.

• I suspect batteries will need to be replaced more frequently than engines.

I suspect you're wrong.

https://www.evconnect.com/blog/how-long ... ttery-last
https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/ ... eplacement
(admittedly, both of these are very pro-EV).

How Long Does an Electric Car Battery Last?
So the question remains: How long can you expect your EV battery to last? Fortunately for consumers, the government mandates EV manufacturers to warranty batteries for 8 years or 100,000 miles, while California extends that warranty to 10 years or 150,000 miles.

As EV battery packs become cheaper to manufacture, companies can create larger batteries with more energy potential, which in turn increases their mile-range. Additionally, the improved technology reduces the degradation of batteries, meaning that over time the maximum potential stays closer to the new battery. And because newer batteries already have greatly increased in mileage range, as they degrade they will still maintain a longer mileage range than batteries from just a few years ago. Finally, because lithium-ion batteries are made up of many individual cells, you rarely need to replace the entire battery as it degrades. Instead, you can save money by simply replacing dead cells.


How Does EV Battery Longevity Compare to ICE Vehicles?
Both of the mandated warranty numbers (8 years, 100,000 miles) for EV batteries far exceed the average ICE vehicle drivetrain warranty of 5 years or 60,000 miles. The average lifetime mileage of an ICE vehicle is about 133,000 miles. While experts estimate the average EV battery will last around 200,000 miles, some manufacturers already promise much more than that.

[*]I believe my neighbor recently paid $16k to replace the batteries in their Tesla.[/list]

For older cars, especially older Tesla S and Xs, yeah. Newer models are still under warranty. And with EVs, the aftermarket for replacement batteries is still very young and very small. It will grow as time goes on, and prices will come down.

And ask Gregg how much Ford charges for a new F-150 engine

I would dispute that the average ICE vehicle engine lasts 133k miles, I haven't had one fail in more than that ever. Transmissions, on the other hand... Also maintenance costs on ICE vehicles feel like they are higher to me. FWIW. Also, too, yes that battery replacement I mentioned was for an older Model X.

ETA: I did have to replace a V10 in a F350 which only had like 6x,xxx miles on it, but that was my fault. It was lifted on 2.5 ton axles with 50" tires and the engine was angled back to help with driveshaft angle issues. Which starved the engine of oil, as it turned out. Doh!

[neonzx]

ETA: I did have to replace a V10 in a F350 which only had like 6x,xxx miles on it, but that was my fault. It was lifted on 2.5 ton axles with 50" tires and the engine was angled back to help with driveshaft angle issues. Which starved the engine of oil, as it turned out. Doh!

Wow, what a gas hog (since this is the gas thread). Did you finally mature from that time to a proper adult vehicle for family?

[raison de arizona]

ETA: I did have to replace a V10 in a F350 which only had like 6x,xxx miles on it, but that was my fault. It was lifted on 2.5 ton axles with 50" tires and the engine was angled back to help with driveshaft angle issues. Which starved the engine of oil, as it turned out. Doh!

Wow, what a gas hog (since this is the gas thread). Did you finally mature from that time to a proper adult vehicle for family?

Indeed, that thing got about 8 gallons to the mile, er, miles to the gallon.

My misspent youth and the results of being overpaid at a young age.

[tek]

Figures lie and liars figure.

Nuff said, on both sides.

[humblescribe]

Driving 100 Miles in an EV Is Now More Expensive Than in an ICE

Ryan Erik King
Thu, January 26, 2023 at 1:00 AM GMT+1

No longer needing to buy gasoline is one of the most convincing selling points for potential electric vehicle customers. It’s easy to conclude that owning an EV and recharging at home is cheaper than using a car powered by an internal combustion engine. The conclusion is correct if a driver switches powertrains between luxury vehicles, like going from a Porsche Macan to an electric Porsche Taycan.

However, a recent report from the Anderson Economic Group (AEG) found that fueling costs from mid-priced ICE-powered vehicles are lower than similarly priced electric vehicles. Combustion drivers pay about $11.29 per 100 miles on the road. EV drivers who charge up at home spend about $11.60 per 100 miles. The price difference is more dramatic for those who mainly recharge at stations. Frequent charging station users pay $14.40 per 100 miles.



https://www.yahoo.com/autos/driving-100 ... 00887.html

(original: Jalopnik)

This is more hyperbole than fact. We live in Pacific Graft & Extortion land. We have the basic tiered electric rate. Tier I is about two-bits per kWh; Tier II is closer to forty-five cents. We have rooftop solar which helps keep us in Tier I year 'round. Anyway:

The $11.60 electricity cost for at-home charging equates to 58¢ for five miles. I average around 290 watt-hours per mile of driving. So five miles uses about 1,450 watt-hours, or 1.45 kWh. That usage equals about 36¢ to drive five miles, or about $7.25 for 100 miles. At Tier II rates the cost for 100 miles would be about $13.

Gasoline around these parts is well over $4.00 per gallon. I betcha electricity rates in most of the rest of the country are around 15-18¢ per kWh, perhaps less if you have TOU and charge overnight when rates are a lot lower. We know that California has the highest gasoline prices in the lower 48.

What is missing from the article: Driving styles. Jackrabbit starts and cruising at 80 in a 70 will use a lot of juice. Turning on the cabin heat will use a lot of juice. Differing makes and models will have a substantial impact on the amount of electricity used. (My wife's car averages about 240 watt-hours per mile, so for her car, that 100-mile leg will cost about six bucks.)

Lastly, the story omits key information like the types of mid-priced vehicles, the cost of gasoline, and the costs of electricity. It omits how the vehicles were driven--all city--all highway--stop-and-go traffic--a mixture?

I wonder about this Anderson Economic Group and what their biases are.

[Shizzle Popped]

My Outback gets about 30 mpg on the highway. I just paid $3.60/gal for gas the other day so that's $12 per 100 miles for my car on the highway. I'm guessing it would be in excess of $15 for the short drives I do around town.

Our current electric rates in the Indianapolis suburbs are just under 11 cents per kWh. I don't know how that translates into cost of driving an electric vehicle but I'm sure it's lower than what it costs me in gas.

[humblescribe]

My Outback gets about 30 mpg on the highway. I just paid $3.60/gal for gas the other day so that's $12 per 100 miles for my car on the highway. I'm guessing it would be in excess of $15 for the short drives I do around town.

Our current electric rates in the Indianapolis suburbs are just under 11 cents per kWh. I don't know how that translates into cost of driving an electric vehicle but I'm sure it's lower than what it costs me in gas.

If your driving style averages 333 watt-hours per mile, then you can travel three miles on one kilowatt-hour, or 11¢. Thirty miles will be $1.10. Running the heater and having a lead foot might increase your usage to 400 wh/mile, or 2.5 miles per kWh. That'll run you (12)(.11) or $1.32 for 30 miles. Shoot, even at the rate of 1kWh/mile, that is still $3.30, cheaper than a gallon of gasoline.

They flip the fraction for electric car efficiencies. It would be the same as saying your car uses so many gallons per mile. Your Outback would have a 1/30 of a gallon per mile or about 4.27 fluid ounces. Likely a more difficult concept to understand!

[raison de arizona]

Gas prices going up. Again.

Oil prices surge after OPEC+ producers announce surprise cuts[

Oil prices spiked Monday after OPEC+ producers unexpectedly announced that they would cut output.

Brent crude, the global benchmark, jumped 5.31% to $84.13 a barrel, while WTI, the US benchmark, rose 5.48% to $79.83. Both were the sharpest price rises in almost a year.

The oil prices sunk as low as $73 and $67 a barrel respectively in the week following the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank in the United States on March 10, as the turmoil spread to the wider banking sector, raising fears of a global recession.

With oil prices now rising, inflation could remain higher for longer, adding pressure to a hot-button issue for consumers around the world.

“The development comes as a blow for inflation,” Sophie Lund-Yates, lead equity analyst at Hargreaves Lansdown, said in a note Monday. “Markets are aware that if the pressure continues, central banks will need to extend or strengthen their interest rate hiking cycles.”

https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/02/business ... index.html

[RTH10260]

It's Easter travel season, so time for a minor surcharge ...

[raison de arizona]

Inside the Saudi scheme for screwing Biden's election hopes
Thom Hartmann

Have you noticed gas prices are rising? Get ready: you ain’t seen nothing yet.

The bloodthirsty leader of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia loves his dictatorial soul-mate Donald Trump and is today setting the stage to intervene in November’s election in a big way, much like he did with a smaller test run during the fall of 2022 when he drove US gas prices up above $5, forcing President Biden to release oil from the US strategic petroleum reserve.

As Stanley Reed reported for the Business pages of The New York Times three days ago:

“Saudi Arabia, the de facto leader of the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries, said Sunday that it would extend [their one-million-barrels-a-day] cuts in oil production through June, noting that it was acting ‘in coordination with some’ other states.”

That “other state” would be their OPEC+ partner Russia, which also announced last weekend a simultaneous production cut of 471,000 barrels a day. Putin wants Trump back in the White House, too.

https://www.rawstory.com/saudi-arabia-trump/