Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
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Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
If they have confirmed what they have and what they don't, they're not going to tell us. I suspect they have a fairly complete and accurate list of what they think is still missing.
And I suspect there's a great deal of discussion behind the scenes as to what to do about it. Because as others have noted, a judge needs probable cause to issue a search warrant for a specific location.
And I suspect there's a great deal of discussion behind the scenes as to what to do about it. Because as others have noted, a judge needs probable cause to issue a search warrant for a specific location.
The more I learn about this planet, the more improbable it all seems.
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Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
Too, also, from reports of Trump destroying documents I would guess that they will never be able to recover all the materials that were taken.Foggy wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 7:37 am If they have confirmed what they have and what they don't, they're not going to tell us. I suspect they have a fairly complete and accurate list of what they think is still missing.
And I suspect there's a great deal of discussion behind the scenes as to what to do about it. Because as others have noted, a judge needs probable cause to issue a search warrant for a specific location.
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Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
Yeah, but if they can prove Trump had them, that would make for a much easier trial conviction, imho. Hear me out.
If he goes on trial for documents they got back, some of the emotional punch is missing. He can muddy the waters with all his stupid crap.
But if the case is, we can prove he had more. We're not even charging him for the documents we got back, but these are stolen and missing. These put America at risk, and if he didn't sell them he's still hiding them.
I think a jury would be much more likely to convict.
But the proof that he had them must be ironclad.
If he goes on trial for documents they got back, some of the emotional punch is missing. He can muddy the waters with all his stupid crap.
But if the case is, we can prove he had more. We're not even charging him for the documents we got back, but these are stolen and missing. These put America at risk, and if he didn't sell them he's still hiding them.
I think a jury would be much more likely to convict.
But the proof that he had them must be ironclad.
The more I learn about this planet, the more improbable it all seems.
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Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
I certainly hope that the chain of custody on classified documents is strong enough to do that, because, if not, WTF?Foggy wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:44 pm Yeah, but if they can prove Trump had them, that would make for a much easier trial conviction, imho. Hear me out.
If he goes on trial for documents they got back, some of the emotional punch is missing. He can muddy the waters with all his stupid crap.
But if the case is, we can prove he had more. We're not even charging him for the documents we got back, but these are stolen and missing. These put America at risk, and if he didn't sell them he's still hiding them.
I think a jury would be much more likely to convict.
But the proof that he had them must be ironclad.
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Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
There's likely to be zero chain of custody, or I mean, an enormous hole in the chain of custody. Think about it:
There's probably a chain that leads to any particular document arriving in the White House (and being signed for) on some date before January 20, 2021, when Trump left office. And then the chain picks up again when they searched on August 8th, 2022.
But between those two dates, he could have taken any one document to Trump Tower, to Bedminster, to any of a dozen locations. And then brought them to Mierda Lardo. Any number of minions have handled the documents.
So, umm ... chain of custody only since August 8th. Before that, nothing.
There's probably a chain that leads to any particular document arriving in the White House (and being signed for) on some date before January 20, 2021, when Trump left office. And then the chain picks up again when they searched on August 8th, 2022.
But between those two dates, he could have taken any one document to Trump Tower, to Bedminster, to any of a dozen locations. And then brought them to Mierda Lardo. Any number of minions have handled the documents.
So, umm ... chain of custody only since August 8th. Before that, nothing.
The more I learn about this planet, the more improbable it all seems.
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Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
That's the tough part about prosecution for the missing documents.
"Jimmy Down The Hall helped load the boxes into the truck (or plane). He maybe ganked a few documents. You can't pin it on me."
.
"Jimmy Down The Hall helped load the boxes into the truck (or plane). He maybe ganked a few documents. You can't pin it on me."
.
Edit: I believe that is the first appearance of Jimmy since Fogbow Reborn.
The more I learn about this planet, the more improbable it all seems.
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Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
I meant the chain of custody up until the point at which it was in Trump's hands -- obviously it was broken after that (since Trump has shown himself to be unreliable). If a secure document was legally in his hands, then it would seem that he is responsible for it until and unless the government's chain of custody is restored. I'm sure that there are a lot of nuances in the actual laws being considered, but I would hope that the prosecution simplifies the principle for the jury before diving into the weeds.Foggy wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:01 pm There's likely to be zero chain of custody, or I mean, an enormous hole in the chain of custody. Think about it:
There's probably a chain that leads to any particular document arriving in the White House (and being signed for) on some date before January 20, 2021, when Trump left office. And then the chain picks up again when they searched on August 8th, 2022.
But between those two dates, he could have taken any one document to Trump Tower, to Bedminster, to any of a dozen locations. And then brought them to Mierda Lardo. Any number of minions have handled the documents.
So, umm ... chain of custody only since August 8th. Before that, nothing.
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Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
Yeah, but now that I think about it, it's a lot easier to prove a document came to the White House and a lot harder to prove what happened to it after that. And to convict him of stealing the missing documents?
The more I learn about this planet, the more improbable it all seems.
Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
Assuming Maggie Haberman did not make it up (in her capacity as a "friendly access journalist"), a penchant for flushing documents may well establish reasonable doubt.
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I said that a while back. I cannot believe that someone can just walk into the secret documents bunker in Langley, grab a stack of top secret folders and cart them off to the White House without someone asking you to sign for them.Slarti the White wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:52 pmI certainly hope that the chain of custody on classified documents is strong enough to do that, because, if not, WTF?Foggy wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:44 pm Yeah, but if they can prove Trump had them, that would make for a much easier trial conviction, imho. Hear me out.
If he goes on trial for documents they got back, some of the emotional punch is missing. He can muddy the waters with all his stupid crap.
But if the case is, we can prove he had more. We're not even charging him for the documents we got back, but these are stolen and missing. These put America at risk, and if he didn't sell them he's still hiding them.
I think a jury would be much more likely to convict.
But the proof that he had them must be ironclad.
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Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
I think that it would be extremely difficult to present to twelve solid citizens who survived voir dire enough irrefutable evidence to convict him on any missing classified documents that are still at large. As mentioned above, the 18-month gap in the chain of custody is enough to plant more than reasonable doubt. Not only for the peripatetic Jimmy down the hall, but also for any miscommunication between tfg and his minions. ("How did those get there? I told X who said he told Y who then boxed everything up for proper disposition to the various agencies.")
Here we have a case where tfg dragged his feet for over a year. We have a case where the government asked many times to give us the stuff. After two tranches and a sworn affidavit saying that we gave you everything, they still found more stuff. I think the chain of events in this instance is powerful evidence since many of the files were found among his souvenirs personal effects. A normal person would return property to its rightful owner regardless of how it wound up in his possession. I think juries can identify with that.
But I think that to pursue the classified files charge is wrong. I think that there are easier crimes to charge and convict. Obstruction of justice is one. Conspiracy to defraud the government is another.
But this is just the ranting of an accountenant accommodant bean counter.
Here we have a case where tfg dragged his feet for over a year. We have a case where the government asked many times to give us the stuff. After two tranches and a sworn affidavit saying that we gave you everything, they still found more stuff. I think the chain of events in this instance is powerful evidence since many of the files were found among his souvenirs personal effects. A normal person would return property to its rightful owner regardless of how it wound up in his possession. I think juries can identify with that.
But I think that to pursue the classified files charge is wrong. I think that there are easier crimes to charge and convict. Obstruction of justice is one. Conspiracy to defraud the government is another.
But this is just the ranting of an accountenant accommodant bean counter.
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go." O. Wilde
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Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
Would TFG's ego allow him to say that, though, when his arguments thus far have boiled down to "I have every right to those files, they are mine, and they are no longer classified because I say so with my executive privilege"?humblescribe wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 7:00 pm I think that it would be extremely difficult to present to twelve solid citizens who survived voir dire enough irrefutable evidence to convict him on any missing classified documents that are still at large. As mentioned above, the 18-month gap in the chain of custody is enough to plant more than reasonable doubt. Not only for the peripatetic Jimmy down the hall, but also for any miscommunication between tfg and his minions. ("How did those get there? I told X who said he told Y who then boxed everything up for proper disposition to the various agencies.")
But the sunshine aye shall light the sky,
As round and round we run;
And the truth shall ever come uppermost,
And justice shall be done.
- Charles Mackay, "Eternal Justice"
As round and round we run;
And the truth shall ever come uppermost,
And justice shall be done.
- Charles Mackay, "Eternal Justice"
Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
Are you saying it’s wrong to pursue charges relating to *any* classified documents, or only the missing ones?humblescribe wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 7:00 pm A normal person would return property to its rightful owner regardless of how it wound up in his possession. I think juries can identify with that.
But I think that to pursue the classified files charge is wrong. I think that there are easier crimes to charge and convict. Obstruction of justice is one. Conspiracy to defraud the government is another.
If it’s only the missing ones, I agree. It would be too hard to prove that he ever had them.
But I do not think it would be wrong to pursue charges on the retained classified documents. There’s a statute that specifically prohibits such retention. The classified nature of the documents is proof that they were not his to remove from the White House, and his claims that they were his personal property is proof of his intent to retain them.
It’s been awhile, but I had an unauthorized retention case a number of years ago, and it was pretty straightforward: If the information is classified and you remove it with the intent to retain it, you’re guilty.
I think all this clamoring about declassification was crazy. He should’ve just said, “Oh, my mistake. I didn’t realize I had that stuff,” and given it all back, and this would all have gone away.
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
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He’s incapable of admitting fault. Ever.
But yeah, that would’ve worked.
“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
Cf. We only know about this because he told us.raison de arizona wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 10:33 amHe’s incapable of admitting fault. Ever.
But yeah, that would’ve worked.
I have no doubt countless people have gotten what they want from him simply by agreeing to keep quiet about it.
If his lawyers and the government's lawyers had quietly arranged a transfer, which is what the government originally wanted, very few people would have known about the retained documents.
Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
Ya, people say "he never settles - he goes the distance and drags stuff out for years" because HE says he does. In actuality he settled cases all the time. He would threaten to drag it out but if people pushed back he would fold like a cheap date.bob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 11:57 amCf. We only know about this because he told us.raison de arizona wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 10:33 amHe’s incapable of admitting fault. Ever.
But yeah, that would’ve worked.
I have no doubt countless people have gotten what they want from him simply by agreeing to keep quiet about it.
If his lawyers and the government's lawyers had quietly arranged a transfer, which is what the government originally wanted, very few people would have known about the retained documents.
Hic sunt dracones
Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
Right. But he could have settled this one, and didn't. Now he's looking at criminal charges. Sucks to be him, I suppose.Suranis wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 12:28 pmYa, people say "he never settles - he goes the distance and drags stuff out for years" because HE says he does. In actuality he settled cases all the time. He would threaten to drag it out but if people pushed back he would fold like a cheap date.bob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 11:57 amCf. We only know about this because he told us.raison de arizona wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 10:33 am
He’s incapable of admitting fault. Ever.
But yeah, that would’ve worked.
I have no doubt countless people have gotten what they want from him simply by agreeing to keep quiet about it.
If his lawyers and the government's lawyers had quietly arranged a transfer, which is what the government originally wanted, very few people would have known about the retained documents.
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
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Which is, IMO, one of the weirdest parts of this whole affair. Unauthorized retention (of national-security information) is a crime. So when the feebs drop you a nice note asking for the documents back, and tosses in that their continued retention could lead to criminal charges, they're doing so not to be polite, but to create evidence that you had the necessary mental state for the crime, i.e., you retained, your retention wasn't authorized, and you knew you were unauthorizedly retaining.
I presume every lawyer who pleaded with him to just return the documents wrote lengthy CYA memos for the file.
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Normally I would agree with that. But tell me you can't name a Baker's Dozen Lawyers who have represented Trump who don't have enough sense to tie their shoes.bob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 2:31 pmWhich is, IMO, one of the weirdest parts of this whole affair. Unauthorized retention (of national-security information) is a crime. So when the feebs drop you a nice note asking for the documents back, and tosses in that their continued retention could lead to criminal charges, they're doing so not to be polite, but to create evidence that you had the necessary mental state for the crime, i.e., you retained, your retention wasn't authorized, and you knew you were unauthorizedly retaining.
I presume every lawyer who pleaded with him to just return the documents wrote lengthy CYA memos for the file.
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I believe the collective noun for lawyers switches from 'team' to 'clown car' when referring specifically in context to TFG's current and former attorneys.Gregg wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:40 amNormally I would agree with that. But tell me you can't name a Baker's Dozen Lawyers who have represented Trump who don't have enough sense to tie their shoes.bob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 2:31 pmWhich is, IMO, one of the weirdest parts of this whole affair. Unauthorized retention (of national-security information) is a crime. So when the feebs drop you a nice note asking for the documents back, and tosses in that their continued retention could lead to criminal charges, they're doing so not to be polite, but to create evidence that you had the necessary mental state for the crime, i.e., you retained, your retention wasn't authorized, and you knew you were unauthorizedly retaining.
I presume every lawyer who pleaded with him to just return the documents wrote lengthy CYA memos for the file.
But the sunshine aye shall light the sky,
As round and round we run;
And the truth shall ever come uppermost,
And justice shall be done.
- Charles Mackay, "Eternal Justice"
As round and round we run;
And the truth shall ever come uppermost,
And justice shall be done.
- Charles Mackay, "Eternal Justice"
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by the editors of the Fogbow Lexicon and Snarksaurus.Ben-Prime: I believe the collective noun for lawyers switches from 'team' to 'clown car' when referring specifically in context to TFG's current and former attorneys.
"Mickey Mouse and I grew up together." - Ruthie Tompson, Disney animation checker and scene planner and one of the first women to become a member of the International Photographers Union in 1952.
Trump's Classified Docs Theft: Mar-A-Lago, FBI Subpoenas, Searches & Seizures - DOJ, Garland, GOP Madness - Spy Hard
Clown car, indeed.
I can’t believe he can still find lawyers willing to put their licenses on the line by filing patently frivolous stuff. I mean, some decisions belong to the client, but the client can’t force an attorney to do anything the attorney thinks is frivolous.
I can’t believe he can still find lawyers willing to put their licenses on the line by filing patently frivolous stuff. I mean, some decisions belong to the client, but the client can’t force an attorney to do anything the attorney thinks is frivolous.
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
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Conversely, an attorney could give private advice (i.e., just return the damn documents!), but have that advice ignored, choose not to withdraw, and then publicly zealously advocate contrary to the privately proffered but rejected advice.
Nonetheless, there's a way to do that without frivolity and ethical concerns. Yet here we are.
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Most of his attorneys these days seem to be the type who have their faces on interstate billboards.