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Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

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Luke
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Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#1

Post by Luke »

We've been talking about astrological signs and the Chinese horoscope in other topics so putting a topic here for discussion. Totally understand that many folks don't believe it and respect that, but my experience has been different.

I was raised with astrology... had a dear friend who was an astrologer and through my High School years my sister and I took some classes and learned a lot about it from him. At that time, there weren't computers, proud to still have hand-drawn charts.

In a nutshell, the way it works is that if you took a photograph of the sky from the exact location on the minute you were born (birth time is extremely important, it makes a big difference in your Ascendant or Rising Sign, which is how you present to the world), the arrangement of the planets makes up your Natal Chart. The angles, or aspects, between the planets all have a meaning. The data is from what's called an Ephemeris.

Of course, the planets keep moving. The angles that the moving planets make to your Natal Chart are called Transits. It's those Transits that are basically used in horoscope columns. However, those columns often are more accurate when read for your Ascendant. For example, I'm an Aquarian (and work in the arts), but my Rising Sign is Gemini (notice that I never shut up? That's Gemini :lol: ). So if I'm reading a horoscope, I'll read Gemini and it's more accurate.

Interestingly, my Dad, who is a Brooklyn-born mechanical engineer, dismissed it as a bunch of bunk early on. However, he spent time with my Astrologer friend and became fascinated by the mathematics of the Ephemeris. Every chart is very complex, it's not just the Sun Sign at all. A chart looks like an orange and each slice is a different part of a person's life (those are called "Houses"). So where the planets are in the slices are important, as well as the angles the planets make to each other Natally, as well as the Transits. Now my Dad does charts when new babies in the family are born as gifts, and is a great interpreter. And that's important: the mathematical data is there, but how it's interpreted is vitally important. It's like Tarot cards in that way... if the reader is biased or in a negative place, the interpretation is going to be flawed. It's why finding a good Astrologer whom you trust is as important as the data itself.

So when you hear "Aquarius" from HAIR, "When the moon is in the 7th House and Jupiter Aligns with Mars"... that's what it's talking about.

Like anything else, astrology is just one thing to consider. For us, it's actually been extremely helpful and accurate. Have had contact closings set at favorable astrological times (companies and events have charts, too, even nations have charts) and seriously they have worked out as suggested. We all have free will so nothing is in stone, astrology just gives indicators of potential events. Totally respect anybody not into it, but over the years have discovered it's much more complex than expected, and in my experience (as well as family and friends) it's been more accurate than not.


Just discovered this intro video, haven't watched it all yet but liked this lady's energy and it was the top viewed video for the topic:


ASTROLOGY 101 | Zodiac, Houses, Moon Signs, Rising Signs, Planet Energy & Birth Charts





The first 2 videos in this Astrology Series:
Sun Signs Pt 1:
Sun Signs Pt 2:
Lt Root Beer of the Mighty 699th. Fogbow 💙s titular Mama June in Fogbow's Favourite Show™ Mama June: From Not To Hot! Fogbow's Theme Song™ Edith Massey's "I Got The Evidence!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5jDHZd0JAg
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#2

Post by Kriselda Gray »

Interesting Stuff, Orlylicious! I've never studied Astrology much, but as part of the Pagan community, I have naturally heard about it a lot. From what I've been told, I guess. I kind of got a double whammy astrologically because I'm Scorpio in the Western astrology, and Wood Dragon in Chinese astrology. I dunno if there's anything to that. I guess I'd have to say I'm not a believer, mainly because I don't know enough, but I'm not discounting anyone else's experiences.
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#3

Post by Kriselda Gray »

Brought over from the thread about election clerk Tina which we'd hijacked for an astrology chat :mrgreen:
Foggy wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:18 am
Uninformed wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:44 pm According to the Chinese zodiac Foggy is a (water) dragon not a rooster! :think:
:fingerwag: :boxing:

Foggy, having been born hatched on Dec. 13, is a member of the forgotten 13th sign of the Zodiac. I am, in fact, a Snake Bearer.

That's correct. I'm an Ophiuchus. Put that in your goog and see what happens. :batting:

The dates on this chart are weird. Most of the signs have roughly 3 weeks - some more than 4 weeks - but Scorpio only gets 5 days. Every other chart I've seen has me as Scorpio but this one puts me in Libra, which doesn't really fit me very well as best as I can recall.
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#4

Post by Suranis »

xposting
Suranis wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:25 am
Foggy wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:18 am :fingerwag: :boxing:

Foggy, having been born hatched on Dec. 13, is a member of the forgotten 13th sign of the Zodiac. I am, in fact, a Snake Bearer.

That's correct. I'm an Ophiuchus. Put that in your goog and see what happens. :batting:
It wasn't forgotten. The earths orbit has shifted slightly in the 2600 years (could be wrong too lazy to look it up the exact time) since the Greeks worked out the path of the sun across the sky, now called the Elliptic rather than the Zodiac. So the 12 signs are now 13.

Ya I know some new age types like to bring up conspiracies about how the 13th sign was suppressed etc, but that's the actual truth.

Also, the hidden thing that Astrologers do not like people bringing up is that their month chart of when the sun is in a constellation is off by 5 months (I think, again lazy) at this point. It's actually shifted a full 17 months since the Greeks worked it out, meaning it went off, became right again and then went ott. So when they say the Sun is in the house of Blah, they are lying through their ass. That pretty makes a mockery of their idea that the stars run the future.
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#5

Post by raison de arizona »

Kriselda Gray wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:47 pm Brought over from the thread about election clerk Tina which we'd hijacked for an astrology chat :mrgreen:
Foggy wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:18 am
Uninformed wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:44 pm According to the Chinese zodiac Foggy is a (water) dragon not a rooster! :think:
:fingerwag: :boxing:

Foggy, having been born hatched on Dec. 13, is a member of the forgotten 13th sign of the Zodiac. I am, in fact, a Snake Bearer.

That's correct. I'm an Ophiuchus. Put that in your goog and see what happens. :batting:

The dates on this chart are weird. Most of the signs have roughly 3 weeks - some more than 4 weeks - but Scorpio only gets 5 days. Every other chart I've seen has me as Scorpio but this one puts me in Libra, which doesn't really fit me very well as best as I can recall.
:yeahthat: I don't wanna be a Libra! :crying:
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#6

Post by tek »

How the hell did I end up a Leo?

Sheesh.
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#7

Post by Kriselda Gray »

raison de arizona wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:02 pm
Kriselda Gray wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:47 pm
Foggy wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:18 am
The dates on this chart are weird. Most of the signs have roughly 3 weeks - some more than 4 weeks - but Scorpio only gets 5 days. Every other chart I've seen has me as Scorpio but this one puts me in Libra, which doesn't really fit me very well as best as I can recall.
:yeahthat: I don't wanna be a Libra! :crying:
Me either! I like my Scorpio and I ain't giving it up!
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#8

Post by Phoenix520 »

Hey hey hey. Remember, there are Libras reading here. Don’t pick on your fellows.

Wait, I’m a Virgo now?
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#9

Post by W. Kevin Vicklund »

Suranis's post is full of inaccuracies (as he admitted, he was being lazy, so no judgment). The Babylonians figured out the path of the sun against the "fixed" stars, which is called the ecliptic, in the first half of the first millenium BCE (so 2600 to 3100 years ago). It wasn't until about 400 BCE that the Babylonians created the Zodiac. The Babylonian version of the constellation Ophiuchus was a bit smaller, so did not cross the ecliptic. The Zodiac sign boundaries are only loosely associated with the constellations they take their name from, as the signs are each exactly 30o of the ecliptic. The Babylonians originally fixed the boundaries on specific stars (sidereal astrology), but later astrologers placed the boundary of Aries and Pisces at the spring equinox (tropical astrology). The precession of the equinoxes (the equinox moves along the ecliptic at a rate of 30o per 2160 years) means that the signs of the Zodiac have shifted from their original alignment by about 33.6o, or about one constellation. When the Zodiac was first created, the equinox was in the constellation of Aries, now it's in Pisces.
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#10

Post by Suranis »

The Babylonians wouldn't have used Greek Names and Greek Gods and Goddesses and Legends in their constellations, so that's obviously inaccurate.

The other thing of course is that the Stars themselves are moving, so that the starry sky we have us Vs 2 and 3 thousand years ago is subtly different. For example in the famous "big Dipper" constellation 5 of the starts are drifting one way, while 2 of the stars are drifting the other. So the Stars have simply moved to slightly different positions in the sky.

I should really start looking stuff up rather than rely on the stuff lodged in my cranium. (yes that stuff about the stars moving is from my tired old brain cells)
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#11

Post by W. Kevin Vicklund »

but later astrologers placed the boundary of Aries and Pisces at the spring equinox (tropical astrology).
The Greeks were the Ioannie come latelies I mentioned. Particularly Ptolemy. Not to mention the whole Alexander the Great thing.

Also, too, many of the signs of the Zodiac are now known by their Roman names.

ETA: but yes, there is a certain amount of movement of the "fixed" stars, just not enough to account for Ophiuchus
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#12

Post by Suranis »

Look, the Babylonians had different constellations. Pretending otherwise is just obtuse. Ophiuchus didn't even exist in the Babylonian Constellation set. The "classical era" begins with the Greeks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiuchus
History and mythology

There is no evidence of the constellation preceding the classical era, and in Babylonian astronomy, a "Sitting Gods" constellation seems to have been located in the general area of Ophiuchus. However, Gavin White proposes that Ophiuchus may in fact be remotely descended from this Babylonian constellation, representing Nirah, a serpent-god who was sometimes depicted with his upper half human but with serpents for legs.[24]

The earliest mention of the constellation is in Aratus, informed by the lost catalogue of Eudoxus of Cnidus (4th century BCE):[25]
To the Phantom's back the Crown is near, but by his head mark near at hand the head of Ophiuchus, and then from it you can trace the starlit Ophiuchus himself: so brightly set beneath his head appear his gleaming shoulders. They would be clear to mark even at the midmonth moon, but his hands are not at all so bright; for faint runs the gleam of stars along on this side and on that. Yet they too can be seen, for they are not feeble. Both firmly clutch the Serpent, which encircles the waist of Ophiuchus, but he, steadfast with both his feet well set, tramples a huge monster, even the Scorpion, standing upright on his eye and breast. Now the Serpent is wreathed about his two hands – a little above his right hand, but in many folds high above his left.[26]
To the ancient Greeks, the constellation represented the god Apollo struggling with a huge snake that guarded the Oracle of Delphi.[27]

Later myths identified Ophiuchus with Laocoön, the Trojan priest of Poseidon, who warned his fellow Trojans about the Trojan Horse and was later slain by a pair of sea serpents sent by the gods to punish him.[27] According to Roman era mythography,[28] the figure represents the healer Asclepius, who learned the secrets of keeping death at bay after observing one serpent bringing another healing herbs. To prevent the entire human race from becoming immortal under Asclepius' care, Jupiter killed him with a bolt of lightning, but later placed his image in the heavens to honor his good works. In medieval Islamic astronomy (Azophi's Uranometry, 10th century), the constellation was known as Al-Ḥawwa', "the snake-charmer".[29]
There was some influence on Hellenistic Astronomy, such as dividing the day into 12 hours and the year into 365 days, but pretending the Greeks basically copied Babylonian astronomy is just ridiculous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_astronomy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_astronomy
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#13

Post by Suranis »

Even better, the Babylonians divided the sky into 18 houses of the proto-Zodiac, not 12, basing their set on the path of the Moon. They didn't change to the 12 houses till the 5th century BC, which is exactly when the Greeks started doing the same thing. Considering there was a lot of ideas exchange between the two at that point you could argue that they got the idea from tracking the sun via the Greeks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonia ... catalogues
Zodiacal constellations
The path of the Moon as given in MUL.APIN consists of 17 or 18 stations, recognizable as the direct predecessors of the 12 sign zodiac. At the beginning of the list with MUL.MUL, the Pleiades, corresponds to the situation in the Early to Middle Bronze Age when the Sun at vernal equinox was close to the Pleiades in Taurus (closest in the 23rd century BCE), and not yet in Aries.

*skip table of Sign names and western equivalents.*

The "Tail" and the "Great Swallow" (items 15 and 16 above) have also been read as a single constellation the "Tail of the Swallow" (Pisces). This is the source of the uncertainty over the number of constellations — 17 or 18 — in the Babylonian "zodiac". All constellations of the Iron Age 12-sign zodiac are present among them, most of them with names that clearly identify them, while some reached Greek astronomy with altered names; thus "Furrow" became Virgo, "Pabilsag" Sagittarius, "Great One" Aquarius, "Swallow Tail" Pisces and "Farm Worker" was reinterpreted as Aries.

Virgo, and her main star Spica, have Babylonian precedents. The MUL.APIN associates Absin "The Furrow" with the Sumerian goddess Shala, and on boundary stones of the Kassite era Shala is conventionally depicted as holding a length of grain. Regarding Sagittarius, Pabilsag is a comparatively obscure Sumerian god, later identified with Ninurta. Another name for the constellation was Nebu "The Soldier".

Aquarius "The Water-Pourer" represents Ea (a water god), dubbed "The Great One" in the MUL.APIN. It contained the winter solstice in the Early Bronze Age. In Greek astronomy, he became represented as simply a single vase from which a stream poured down to Piscis Austrinus. The name in the Hindu zodiac is likewise kumbha "water-pitcher", showing that the zodiac reached India via Greek intermediaries.

The current definition of Pisces is the youngest of the zodiacal constellations. The "Swallow" of Babylonian astronomy included the western fish, but was larger as it included as well parts of Pegasus. The square of Pegasus was the constellation of the "field", shown in the Dendera zodiac between the two fishes. The northern fish and part of Andromeda represented the goddess Anunitum, the "Lady of the Heaven". Late Babylonian sources mention also DU.NU.NU "The Fish-Cord". It is unclear how the "Farm Worker" of the MUL.APIN became Aries "The Ram" of Greek tradition, possibly by a pun or misunderstanding.[5][6]

Somewhere around the 5th century BCE, Babylonian astronomical texts began to describe the positions of the Sun, Moon, and planets in terms of 12 equally-spaced signs, each one associated with a zodiacal constellation, each divided into 30 degrees (uš). This normalized zodiac is fixed to the stars and totals 360 degrees.[7]
Anyway... Why Am I arguing about this at 2:30 in the morning. I need my head examined.
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#14

Post by Suranis »

Anyway, Wiki explains that the sky was divided into 12 30 degree segments regardless if how much the actual constellation covered, so that's as good an explanation as any.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiuchus_(astrology)
Ophiuchus (⛎︎ Ophiuchus symbol (fixed width).svg) (/ɒfiˈjuːkəs/, (Ancient Greek: Ὀφιοῦχος "Serpent-bearer") has sometimes been suggested in sidereal astrology as a thirteenth astrological sign in addition to the twelve signs of the tropical zodiac. The constellation Ophiuchus, as defined by the 1930 International Astronomical Union's constellation boundaries, is situated behind the sun from November 29 to December 18

The idea appears to have originated in 1970 with Steven Schmidt's suggestion of a 14-sign zodiac, also including Cetus as a sign. A 13-sign zodiac has been promulgated by Walter Berg and by Mark Yazaki in 1995, a suggestion that achieved some popularity in Japan, where Ophiuchus is known as Hebitsukai-za (蛇遣座 (へびつかいざ), "The Serpent Bearer").

However, astrology and astronomy are two different fields of study, and in sidereal and tropical astrology (including sun sign astrology), a 12-sign zodiac is used based on dividing the ecliptic into 12 equal parts rather than the IAU constellation boundaries. That is, astrological signs do not correspond to the constellations which are their namesakes, particularly not in the case of the tropical system where the divisions are fixed relative to the equinox, moving relative to the constellations.
references
"Here's What Astrologers Want You To Know About Ophiuchus, The So-Called 13th Sign". https://www.bustle.com/life/did-my-zodi ... n-debunked

"No NASA didn't create a 13th sign" https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/17/us/nasa- ... index.html

I need sleep. And probably lots of drugs.
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#15

Post by Suranis »

Revisionist Zodiac signs.

Zodiac.jpg
Zodiac.jpg (46.53 KiB) Viewed 882 times
I swear to God, this just popped up on my Facebook. :lol:
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#16

Post by keith »

Phoenix520 wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:26 pm Hey hey hey. Remember, there are Libras reading here. Don’t pick on your fellows.

Wait, I’m a Virgo now?
Um... I used to be a Leo and now I'm a 69?

That might explain that time I ... oh sorry. Never mind. :whistle:
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#17

Post by Foggy »

I was born in the little seaside town of Seaside, California (a district of Monterey), so I am EXEMPT from astrology. :boxing:
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#18

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

I don't mind being a wind chime! I don't want to be a Libra transmogrified into a Virgo. My mom was a Virgo. :biggrin:
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#19

Post by Phoenix520 »

Me, neither, too, but my dad.
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#20

Post by Frater I*I »

I'm sticking with the old school, the lion and the dragon...it'll look so badass when I have a yakuza body-shirt tattoo done of a lion and dragon facing off...




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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#21

Post by W. Kevin Vicklund »

from the opening paragraph of the Ancient Greek Astronomy link
Most of the names of the stars, planets, and constellations of the northern hemisphere are inherited from the terminology of the Greek astronomy, which are however indeed transliterated from the empirical knowledge in Babylonian astronomy, characterized by its theoretical model formulation in terms of algebraic and numerical relations, and to a lesser extent from Egyptian astronomy.
from the opening section of the Babylonian Astronomy link
Nevertheless, the surviving fragments show that Babylonian astronomy was the first "successful attempt at giving a refined mathematical description of astronomical phenomena" and that "all subsequent varieties of scientific astronomy, in the Hellenistic world, in India, in Islam, and in the West … depend upon Babylonian astronomy in decisive and fundamental ways."[5]

The origins of Western astronomy can be found in Mesopotamia, and all Western efforts in the exact sciences are descendants in direct line from the work of the late Babylonian astronomers
the last sentence of the Ophiuchus link
The differences are due to the fact that the time of year that the Sun passes through a particular zodiac constellation's position has slowly changed (because of the precession of the equinoxes) over the centuries from when the Babylonians originally developed the Zodiac.
I was the first to point out that Babylonian constellations were not identical to Greek. However, most of the Zodiac constellations have a direct correlation. And I never said the Greeks simply copied the Babylonians. They took the Babylonian observations (among others) and made crucial advances. But the simple fact is, the Babylonians were the ones who took recordings of astronomical events over the course of hundreds of years and compiled them, eventually coming up with the zodiac system that the Greeks adopted not long after (Eudoxus was a young boy when the Babylonians developed the zodiac system). Pretending otherwise is stupid, especially when your own sources contradict you.
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Re: Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#22

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

Off Topic
Speaking of the Babylonians and in reference to my recent surgery, did you know:

https://www.milaneyecenter.com/resource ... t-surgery/

Cataract Surgery in Babylon
The laws of Babylon established by King Hammurabi, known as the Code of Hammurabi, contained sections regulating eye surgeries. For example, it dictated that a doctor who caused his patient to lose an eye from surgery would have his hands cut off. Cataract surgery may well have been one of the procedures the Code of Hammurabi sought to regulate.
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Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#23

Post by SamsOvar »

I believe in the natal chart. But for some reason, I think a person cannot make an accurate millimeter-by-millimeter map by hand. You need accurate data of your birth location, with exact coordinates. Also, your mom should tell you the hour, minute, and second of your birth to make a good fate description. This section of astrology intersects with numerology. I believe numerology originated earlier than Astrology because people learned to count before they could identify the stars or constellations. I've read various articles about significant numbers on trulydivine.com, and I can be sure that numerology works.
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Astrology / Chinese Zodiac

#24

Post by Foggy »

Sam, please choose another avatar, I'm pretty sure that dog belonged to one of our members. And welcome!
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