Autonomous Vehicles

[RTH10260]

Some (semi-)autonomous cars prevent using a tablet on the front seats. That's when the autopilot comes in handy while you move to the back seat...

[Tiredretiredlawyer]

...and the backseat is for romancing. I get it!

[DrConspiracy]

Looking forward to Tesla "AI Day" presentation tonight, although without Andrej Karpathy it might not be as educational.

[DrConspiracy]

DrConspiracy -

Please 'splain where and how you play video games on your Tesla. The Romance feature needs 'splaining too, also.

All Teslas have a large center-mounted touch screen. You can play video games on a Tesla pretty much the same way you would on a tablet computer. Tesla also has 2 USB ports that support X-Box controllers. For one game in particular, Beach Buggy Racing II, the player can use the car's brake and steering wheel in the game. Here's what it looks like:



Originally it was possible to play Tesla games while the car was in motion if the player clicked a button saying "I am a passenger," but the NTSC objected and now one can't play games while the car is in gear. The car also has Netflix, Disney+, Hulu, YouTube, Twitch and TikTok on the center screen, only available when the car is parked.

Romance mode is just a video of a cozy fireplace and music playing.

The number of Tesla games has increased and Tesla's talking about porting Steam to the car. I personally don't play games in the car. If I have a charging session, I just listen to the radio, browse the web on the car's web browser or watch Netflix.

[DrConspiracy]

FWIW, Elon Musk has apparently kept his promise to make the Tesla Full Self-Driving Beta available to everyone in North America that purchased it by the end of the year. Tesla firmware version 2022.44.30.5 is widely rolling out (it's installing on my car now) and it it does not have the 100-mile safe driving test or waiting period required for prior access to the beta. Tesla says that 285,000 people have purchased the FSD software license.

Musk did not keep his promise to roll out the long-awaited version 11 that will make FSD operable on controlled-access highways. Essentially 4-year-old software continues to be used in that environment.

This cuts both ways. Less skilled drivers may get access to the bleeding edge technology, but also the car will give more help to those who need it most.

FSD still requires eyes on the road and hands on the wheel.

For previous beta testers like me, this is probably a "nothing" release, updating Beta 10.69.25 to 10.69.25.1. I would have hoped that they would have made more improvements before the wide release, things like slowing down in school zones, getting in the correct lane, stopping for traffic control gates, and more appropriate use of turn signals. But we'll see.

[busterbunker]

Does the software adhere to lane control? Specifically:

Turnout Areas and Lanes
[Image of 'turnout' sign: SLOWER TRAFFIC USE TURNOUTS]
Special “turnout” areas are sometimes marked on two-lane roads. Drive into these areas to allow cars behind you to pass. Some two-lane roads have passing lanes. If you are driving slowly on a two-lane highway or road where passing is unsafe, and 5 or more vehicles are following, you must drive into the turnout areas or lanes to let the vehicles pass.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbook/ ... e-control/

[duck dodgers]

I hav been testing out Tesla's full-self driving beta. My results have not been nearly as positive as Dr.Conspiracy's (note that my Tesla, at least does not use the camera to gauge driver attention, but instead uses pressure on the steering wheel).

I've had the Tesla model x for 4 years now, using autopilot on the highway, which works OK as long as traffic is running relatively smoothly.

FSD in town, however is quite unusable.

I have yet to be able to allow the car to drive in FSD mode in town for more than a few minutes before wrenching control away from the maniacal robot driving like a drunk. The car mysterious brakes in the middle of the road when there are NO cars or other obstacles anywhere near. The car also fails to slow down where vehicles in front are turning, instead braking heavily at the last minute. When chaging lanes, it mysteriously decides to abort the change for no reason. In my opinion, the current version or self driving in town is like as taking your hands off the wheel and hoping the car will continue to go straight.

If what Tesla currently provides is the state-of-the-art, don't anticipate actual FSD for at least another 10 years.

[DrConspiracy]

Drivers of semi-autonomous cars are already seeing the problem -- self-driving cars will follow the law while human drivers don't.

I cannot imagine that NHTSA and state laws will allow a driverless car to exceed the speed limit, even though many if not most human drivers routinely drive 5 or more MPH over the limit. Tesla Full Self-Driving has already run afoul of NHTSA for not completely stopping at a stop sign, and been forced to "recall" the software.

There are other scenarios where a very cautions and law-abiding autonomous vehicle will invoke road rage in human drivers. We already have many cases of diesel cars "rolling coal" as an act of aggressive dislike for EVs. I only expect this to get worse.

[DrConspiracy]

I have been testing out Tesla's full-self driving beta. My results have not been nearly as positive as Dr.Conspiracy's...

Judging by Internet discussion, there is a wide disparity in experience with FSD. I tend to turn it off in the city, not because it can't handle situations, but because I don't trust it to handle situations. And as an older driver, I have less reaction time to diagnose and take over should the car make a mistake. I not only have to watch what the traffic is doing, but what my car is doing too.

Really, the only problems I have with FSD are the car being in the wrong lane (which leads to numerous problems), not stopping for parking gates, a wide range of turn signal errors, and slowing down in situations where it shouldn't.

The YouTube videos of version 11.3.1 of FSD look promising, and supposedly 11.3.2 is widely rolling out now. So we'll see.

[neeneko]

Drivers of semi-autonomous cars are already seeing the problem -- self-driving cars will follow the law while human drivers don't.

In tech forms I have seen people treating the question of 'should we be able to change the settings?' as religious one. If semi-autonomous vehicles obey the laws, expect people to be selling mod kids to get them to take advantage of other people following the rules.

[raison de arizona]

Drivers of semi-autonomous cars are already seeing the problem -- self-driving cars will follow the law while human drivers don't.

In tech forms I have seen people treating the question of 'should we be able to change the settings?' as religious one. If semi-autonomous vehicles obey the laws, expect people to be selling mod kids to get them to take advantage of other people following the rules.

When I was last in SF the regular Uber drivers brutalized the autonomous cars, cutting them off every chance they got. It was almost a sport.

[DrConspiracy]

Drivers of semi-autonomous cars are already seeing the problem -- self-driving cars will follow the law while human drivers don't.

In tech forms I have seen people treating the question of 'should we be able to change the settings?' as religious one. If semi-autonomous vehicles obey the laws, expect people to be selling mod kids to get them to take advantage of other people following the rules.

The semi-autonomous Tesla Full Self-Driving Beta previously allowed the driver to enter an absolute +/- speed offset setting, and the car would driver that speed in relation to the posted limit. Now only a percentage offset can be entered. This was part of the NHTSA recall. But this is a setting in the context of human driver deemed responsible for what the car does, not a Robotaxi.

I personally have the offset set to zero. If I want to go over the limit, I do it on a case by case basis.

[DrConspiracy]

Does the software adhere to lane control? Specifically:

Turnout Areas and Lanes
[Image of 'turnout' sign: SLOWER TRAFFIC USE TURNOUTS]
Special “turnout” areas are sometimes marked on two-lane roads. Drive into these areas to allow cars behind you to pass. Some two-lane roads have passing lanes. If you are driving slowly on a two-lane highway or road where passing is unsafe, and 5 or more vehicles are following, you must drive into the turnout areas or lanes to let the vehicles pass.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbook/ ... e-control/

I don't know specifically and haven't seen anything in the release notes; however, on prior releases I have observed the car aggressively getting into the rightmost lane, even in cases where it's a bad idea, so I have strong speculation that it will.

Of course now with Version 11, everything is shaken up, and I won't know until I can test it.

[RTH10260]

Driverless Car Gets Stuck in Wet Concrete in San Francisco
Though driverless cars have not been blamed for any serious injuries or crashes in the city, they have been involved in several jarring episodes.

By Michael Levenson
Aug. 17, 2023

Driverless vehicles promise a future with less congestion and pollution, fewer accidents resulting from human error and better mobility for people with disabilities, supporters say.

But every now and then, one of the cars runs into trouble in a way that casts a bit of doubt on that bold vision.

So it was on Tuesday in San Francisco, where a driverless car somehow drove into a city paving project and got stuck in wet concrete.

Paul Harvey, 74, a retired contractor who lives in the city’s Western Addition neighborhood, took a photo of the car with roof-mounted sensors, tipped slightly forward, its front wheels mired in the freshly poured concrete.

“I thought it was funny,” Mr. Harvey said in an interview on Wednesday. “I was kind of pleased because it illustrated how creepy and weird the whole thing is to me.”

The incident, previously reported by SFgate.com, happened just days after California regulators agreed to expand driverless taxi services in San Francisco, despite the safety concerns of local officials and community activists.

In a 3-to-1 vote last week, the California Public Utilities Commission, which regulates self-driving cars in the state, gave Cruise and Waymo permission to offer paid rides anytime during the day, throughout the city.



https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/17/us/d ... nt-sf.html

[RTH10260]

GM’s Cruise to slash fleet of robotaxis by 50% in San Francisco after collisions

By Samantha Delouya, CNN
Updated 8:34 AM EDT, Tue August 22, 2023

CNN — California authorities have asked General Motors to “immediately” take some of its Cruse robotaxis off the road after autonomous vehicles were involved in two collisions – including one with an active fire truck – last week in San Francisco.

California’s Department of Motor Vehicles confirmed to CNN that it is investigating “recent concerning incidents involving Cruise vehicles in San Francisco.”

“The DMV is in contact with Cruise and law enforcement officials to determine the facts and requested Cruise to immediately reduce its active fleet of operating vehicles by 50% until the investigation is complete and Cruise takes appropriate corrective actions to improve road safety,” the department said in a statement.

That means Cruise, which is the self-driving subsidiary of General Motors, can have no more than 50 driverless cars in operation during the day, and 150 in operation at night, according to the department.

The California DMV said that Cruise has agreed to the request, and a spokesperson from Cruise told CNN that the company is investigating the firetruck crash as well.




https://edition.cnn.com/2023/08/21/tech ... index.html

[Estiveo]

I had lunch with my brother, the Yeti, on Sunday. He's lived in San Francisco for 30 years, and he says he's never seen the older, long-time residents of the city come together the way they have in their collective hate of the robo-cabs.

With the discovery that they can be immobilized by putting an orange traffic cone on the hood, the practice of "unicorning" them is becoming quite the sport.

[NewMexGirl]

I have been testing out Tesla's full-self driving beta. My results have not been nearly as positive as Dr.Conspiracy's...

Judging by Internet discussion, there is a wide disparity in experience with FSD. I tend to turn it off in the city, not because it can't handle situations, but because I don't trust it to handle situations. And as an older driver, I have less reaction time to diagnose and take over should the car make a mistake. I not only have to watch what the traffic is doing, but what my car is doing too.

Really, the only problems I have with FSD are the car being in the wrong lane (which leads to numerous problems), not stopping for parking gates, a wide range of turn signal errors, and slowing down in situations where it shouldn't.

The YouTube videos of version 11.3.1 of FSD look promising, and supposedly 11.3.2 is widely rolling out now. So we'll see.

We are currently driving a ‘22 X and a ‘22 S. On a recent cross country trip, driving through light smoke haze (AQI at 110) in Montana, the X refused to go into FSD or even cruise control because of “visibility” problems. This was really annoying because visibility was just fine. That is my only complaint about FSD so far.

[DrConspiracy]

We are currently driving a ‘22 X and a ‘22 S. On a recent cross country trip, driving through light smoke haze (AQI at 110) in Montana, the X refused to go into FSD or even cruise control because of “visibility” problems. This was really annoying because visibility was just fine. That is my only complaint about FSD so far.

I haven't seen the smoke issue, but I have had Full Self-Driving not available in heavy rain.

Since my earlier comment, Tesla FSD has gone through a number of updates. I was last on V11.4.4 when I traded in my Model 3 for a Model Y last week with higher resolution cameras and a more capable computer. I'm waiting for a software update so I can use FSD with it.

On a good day, my car would drive me 20 miles, on rural highways, interstate highways and 10-lane city traffic to Costco without intervention. The question now is more one of reliability than capability.

Now we're waiting for a radical change in FSD where 300,000 lines of human-crafted code to explicitly cover every what-if scenario is replaced by a neural network that learns to drive by watching video of good drivers in action.

Oh Brave New World that has such cars driving around in it.

[NewMexGirl]

Here’s the thing for me:

Tesla, with all its foibles, is a better driver than I am. There’s no question in my mind about that. One of the nerviest things I have ever done is let Tesla drive 45 miles of high, curvaceous mountain passes. My foot was 2mm from the brake pedal the entire time and bullets I was definitely sweating. Afterwards, though, I realized just how smoothly Tesla did the job compared to how I would have driven.

I used to be a pretty good driver, but I’m in my seventies and am at the point where recognizing my age-related declines is important for the safety of pedestrians, bicyclists, other vehicles—way more important than any discomfort I might feel in admitting that a machine is more capable than I am on the road.

[Reddog]

I guess I’m old-fashioned, I don’t think I will ever trust self-driving vehicles. It irritates me every time I see the GMC Sierra Denali commercial with the occupants paying attention to “We Will Rock You” and seemingly oblivious to the road conditions. It’s encouraging folks to put 100% faith in technology.

I do like some of the newer technology e.g. adaptive cruise control. It always follows at a proper distance it seems, but if it slows down too much I can always still pass. I hated cruise control with a passion before it, in any traffic at all.

To me there are too many unknowns on the road to adapt for them all.

I’ve worked on industrial controls for years, they are basically a closed system. With good engineering you can get pretty much automated systems with little human interaction. But little still means some.

[keith]

I'm a fan of cruise control - now-a-days.

When CC first appeared I could definitely drive more economically than it could. And don't get me started on how inefficient an automatic transmission was compared to my manual transmission driving. But today's automatic trans is excellent. So is cruise control when ON THE OPEN ROAD. I haven't experienced Adaptive Cruise Control, so I can't comment on it.

SWMBO is always trying to use cruise control in city driving. It's crazy and I can't (so far) break her of the habit.

In City driving is where the Speed Limiter comes in - I love that it keeps me nice.

Autonomous vehicles give me the willies.

[tek]

Now we're waiting for a radical change in FSD where 300,000 lines of human-crafted code to explicitly cover every what-if scenario is replaced by a neural network that learns to drive by watching video of good drivers in action.

I expect this to be a disaster.
Having it extrapolate correctly in situations it hasn't been trained in will work as well as it does with human drivers: not very.

[Sam the Centipede]

A few years ago I saw a worrying.visualization of an vehicle's perception of its environment. Items were highlighted and identified as they appeared in a frame then lost as they were fully or partially obscured.

Why was this worrying? Because there was no integration of knowledge in the short or medium term. If an attentive driver sees a child, dog, etc. who then is obscured by something they know to be careful because that child, dog, etc. could reappear suddenly.

Perhaps software has improved qualitatively and can model the richness of the environment? Perhaps this lack of situational awareness is outweighed by its attentiveness to its sensor inputs and not being distracted by kids, radio, fatigue, etc.

[Reddog]

Very good points, I find that my driving skills are the sum and product of over 60 years of driving. For instance would autonomous driving recognize the potential for black ice on an overpass when the temperature is 32° F, on a foggy morning?
My problem with standard cruise is that I have seen too many times a car taking 10 miles or more to pass another car, blocking both lanes. I always wondered if there had been a psychological paper regarding road-rage to cruise control correlation.
Adaptive cruise more closely mimics how I drive without cruise control e.g. coming up behind someone moving slightly slower than me I change my mode to keeping pace to the car in front. If it’s substantially slower I pass quickly then go back to return to comfortable driving speed

[DrConspiracy]

I expect this to be a disaster.
Having it extrapolate correctly in situations it hasn't been trained in will work as well as it does with human drivers: not very.

I would describe 6 million traffic accidents annually in the US plus 40,000 deaths (1.6 million deaths worldwide) to be a disaster. I see the question as more: which disaster is worse?