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It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

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It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

#1

Post by Foggy »

Yeah, equal amounts of daylight and darkness, and from here on out darkness is winning until December 21st.
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Re: It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

#2

Post by Foggy »

My staff informs me that today is the Vernal Equinox in the Southern Hemisphere.
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Re: It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

#3

Post by AndyinPA »

I prefer the longer days of the Vernal, but I'll take it.
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Re: It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

#4

Post by Foggy »

Yes, today would be an excellent day to go to Oz, where spring is just beginning to spring. 'Course, returning in six months, when Oz is headed towards winter and spring is just beginning in the Northern hemisphere. Back and forth, every six months, for a lifetime of eternal spring and summer.

Good plan for next life. 8-)
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Re: It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

#5

Post by pjhimself »

Perhaps related, maybe not:

The daylight saving time (DST) period in the U.S. begins each year on the second Sunday in March when clocks are set forward by one hour. They are turned back again to standard time on the first Sunday in November as DST ends.

State legislatures continue to grapple with the vexing and multifaceted state policy questions regarding the biannual changing of the clocks. Most all of the states have considered legislation over the last several years that would place the state permanently on either standard time or daylight saving time. Since 2015, at least 350 bills and resolutions have been introduced in virtually every state, but none of significance passed until 2018, when Florida became the first state to enact legislation to permanently observe DST, pending amendment of federal law to permit such action.

In the last four years, 18 states have enacted legislation or passed resolutions to provide for year-round daylight saving time, if Congress were to allow such a change, and in some cases, if surrounding states enact the same legislation. Because federal law does not currently allow full-time DST, Congress would have to act before states could adopt changes.

The 18 states are Alabama, Georgia, Minnesota, Mississippi and Montana (2021). Idaho, Louisiana, Ohio (resolution), South Carolina, Utah and Wyoming (2020). Delaware, Maine, Oregon, Tennessee and Washington (2019). Florida (2018; California voters also authorized such a change that year, but legislative action is pending). Some states have commissioned studies on the topic including Massachusetts (2017) and Maine (2021).

Two states -- Arizona and Hawaii -- and the U.S. territories of American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands observe permanent standard time.
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Re: It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

#6

Post by Foggy »

Since pjhimself didn't give credit for the text of the unrelated post, I googed one sentence and found it.

https://www.ncsl.org/research/transport ... ation.aspx

But, umm ... yeah. The astronomical events like solstices and equinoxes are not aligned with the laws creating Daylight Savings Time. We don't change the clocks until two days before the midterms.
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Re: It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

#7

Post by raison de arizona »

pjhimself wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:26 pm Perhaps related, maybe not:

The daylight saving time (DST) period in the U.S. begins each year on the second Sunday in March when clocks are set forward by one hour. They are turned back again to standard time on the first Sunday in November as DST ends.

State legislatures continue to grapple with the vexing and multifaceted state policy questions regarding the biannual changing of the clocks. Most all of the states have considered legislation over the last several years that would place the state permanently on either standard time or daylight saving time. Since 2015, at least 350 bills and resolutions have been introduced in virtually every state, but none of significance passed until 2018, when Florida became the first state to enact legislation to permanently observe DST, pending amendment of federal law to permit such action.

In the last four years, 18 states have enacted legislation or passed resolutions to provide for year-round daylight saving time, if Congress were to allow such a change, and in some cases, if surrounding states enact the same legislation. Because federal law does not currently allow full-time DST, Congress would have to act before states could adopt changes.

The 18 states are Alabama, Georgia, Minnesota, Mississippi and Montana (2021). Idaho, Louisiana, Ohio (resolution), South Carolina, Utah and Wyoming (2020). Delaware, Maine, Oregon, Tennessee and Washington (2019). Florida (2018; California voters also authorized such a change that year, but legislative action is pending). Some states have commissioned studies on the topic including Massachusetts (2017) and Maine (2021).

Two states -- Arizona and Hawaii -- and the U.S. territories of American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands observe permanent standard time.
/me thumbs his nose in perpetual MST.

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Re: It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

#8

Post by pjhimself »

Astronomy or political BS ?
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Re: It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

#9

Post by Foggy »

Oh definitely, the autumnal equinox is political BS. :batting:
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Re: It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

#10

Post by pjhimself »

Confusing DST Rules
Historically, there were no uniform rules for DST from 1945 to 1966. This caused widespread confusion, especially in transport and broadcasting. The Uniform Time Act of 1966 aligned the switch dates across the USA for the first time.
Following the 1973 oil embargo, the US Congress extended the DST period to 10 months in 1974 and 8 months in 1975, in an effort to save energy.
After the energy crisis was over in 1976, the DST schedule in the US was revised several times. From 1987 to 2006, the country observed DST for about 7 months each year
[
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Re: It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

#11

Post by pjhimself »

Frankly, this seems to be resolvable. This commentary’s that we’ve elected people that can’t get this simple thing done
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It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

#12

Post by Foggy »

Resolved. Today is the day, my peeps. Roughly equal amounts of sunshine and darkness.

Except here we're not getting any sunshine today. 100% chance of rain all day. :(
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It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

#13

Post by Kriselda Gray »

Blessed Vernal Equinox to any who celebrate today!
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It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

#14

Post by Maybenaut »

Foggy wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:37 am Resolved. Today is the day, my peeps. Roughly equal amounts of sunshine and darkness.

Except here we're not getting any sunshine today. 100% chance of rain all day. :(
Same. :cry:
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It's the Autumnal Equinox today, y'all

#15

Post by bill_g »

Split the difference - move the clock one half hour, and be done with it all year.
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#16

Post by Reality Check »

During my lifetime I have seen the fall equinox move back about 2 days. It used to be on 9/21. I think it has to do with the precession of the earth's rotation.
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#17

Post by AndyinPA »

I've noticed that myself. I read the other day that it can also fall on September 24, but it's extraordinarily rare. The next one is a couple of hundred years into the future.

It has felt like fall here for the last two weeks. We had our only official heat wave (here, three days at 90 or above) all summer just over two weeks ago. It cooled down quickly after that and has been in the 70s, dipping into the low 50s at night. It's getting cooler, starting today. We won't even see the 70s. I've put the heat on at night a few times.

But this is my kind of weather!



My birthday is another very rare date for the spring equinox. I think twice in my life Easter has fallen on my birthday, March 26. It's not as rare as September 24, though.
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#18

Post by Reality Check »

AndyinPA wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 11:44 am :snippity:
My birthday is another very rare date for the spring equinox. I think twice in my life Easter has fallen on my birthday, March 26. It's not as rare as September 24, though.
I can recall as an early teen and completely bored in church I would pass the time by reading the stuff in the back of the hymnal. One of the sections was a table with Easter dates from the mid 20th century well into the 21st. I think the latest date was April 23nd in 2000. Easter has fallen on my birthday of April 3rd several times in my lifetime.

Funny how religious holidays are so arbitrary. Most experts agree that Jesus (if he existed) was born in the spring. Christians borrowed the December date from pagan solstice festivals. And Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox. What was someone smoking when they came up with that?
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#19

Post by much ado »

Reality Check wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 11:33 am During my lifetime I have seen the fall equinox move back about 2 days. It used to be on 9/21. I think it has to do with the precession of the earth's rotation.
It has to do with the fact that the length of the solar year is more than 365 days.
The solar year (365 days 5 hours 48 minutes 46 seconds), also called tropical year, or year of the seasons, is the time between two successive occurrences of the vernal equinox (the moment when the Sun apparently crosses the celestial equator moving north).
So the exact time of the vernal equinox is 5 hours 48 minutes 46 seconds later each year, unless a leap day has occurred in February before the current vernal equinox, in which case the exact time is 24 hours minus (5 hours 48 minutes 46 seconds) earlier. That is, in a leap year, the exact time of the vernal equinox is 18 hours 11 minutes 14 seconds earlier than the one the year before.

The whole purpose of leap days is to keep the calendar year aligned with the actual solar year so that the time of vernal equinox does not continue to shift later and later through the calendar year as it did before the Gregorian calendar replaced the Julian calendar in 1582 in most countries.

Here is a table of vernal equinox times. You can see the pattern.
https://equinoxworld.org/vernal-equinox-dates/

Gregorian calendar... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar
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#20

Post by Suranis »

Reality Check wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 2:35 pm Funny how religious holidays are so arbitrary. Most experts agree that Jesus (if he existed) was born in the spring. Christians borrowed the December date from pagan solstice festivals. And Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox. What was someone smoking when they came up with that?
It was selected because before that they were depending on the Jewish Clergy to decide when Passover was so they would know when to celebrate Easter. And of course the Jewish Clergy were really, really nice about letting them know when it would be and wouldn't throw the date around to fuck with them. [/sarcasm]

And don't get me started with this "if he existed" crap. Christianity started in an area where people would ahve seen him with their own eyes. We have more documentary evidence about Jesus than pretty much any other historical figure from the Period. We have fragments of 20 Gospels, th testimony of 2 Eye witnesses in Peter and James, a possible third in Mark as he dropped heavy hints he was there at the Garden og Gethsemane, AND Mentions in at least 2 Pagan histories, namely Tacitus and Josephus. PLUS we have physical evidence, in a Sepulcure from the time that has the inscription "James, son of Joseph, Brother of Jesus" written on it.

By contrast we have only 4 sources of Socretes existence; Plato, Euripedes, Thucydides and Xenophon. And all 4 writers provide totally contradictory accounts of the man, and Plato openly started putting his own theories into the mouth of Socretes in his Writings. But no, idiots have ever doubted that Socretes existed.

If you are doubting the fact of Jesus's esistance, you are actually on the same level as people who doubt Human caused climate change. You don't have to believe he was the Son of God to admit that there was a man called Yeshua wandering about.

The sad thing is that this "if he existed" bollox came about because of a Movie "Zeitgeist", which got every single fact it mentioned about ancient religions wrong, and used those wrong facts as "proof" that the Story of Jesus was based on older religions. And then it was made worse by assholes like Bill Maher, who mocked religious scholars for not knowing that John the Baptist was based on an Egyptian God Apup the Baptizer... and left out that Bill Maher made up Apup the Baptizer. No such Egyptian God existed.

For example, Zeitgeist said that the story of the Virgin birth of Jesus was based on the Birth of Horus, by Isis, who was a Virgin. The problem is That Isis was not a virgin, and the story of Horus's conception was of Isis having freaky Necrophiliac Sex with the Corpse of Osiris, having strapped on a Magical Golden Dildo only the Corpse.

Little bit different than Gabriel and Mary and stuff...

So if you are doubting the existence of Jesus because of sources that give false evidence, that is bad.
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#21

Post by Suranis »

Reality Check wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 2:35 pm Funny how religious holidays are so arbitrary. Most experts agree that Jesus (if he existed) was born in the spring. Christians borrowed the December date from pagan solstice festivals. And Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox. What was someone smoking when they came up with that?
Oh and "most scholars" now have actually looked at when Sheep were put up into the fields in the area, and *shock* it was in the Northern winter months, as ot was cooler and rainy, and that's when Grass grows.

It would be a shocking thing for a religion that started in Palestine not to check when Shepherds brought their flocks into the Hills in Palistine. And before you start Asking how the Stoopid Europeans would know, the stoopid Europeans held Palestine for 100 years over the Crusades so they would have noticed, and the Eastern Orthodox Church was close to Palestine in any case, and THEY agreed with the Winter Months. And in any case, they could ask Merchants that were arriving from the Holy land when Shepherds go up on the hills with their flocks.

So, regardless of what you say about "most scholars" it is incorrect. In fact the only people who doubt it are people from Euro-American climates who were wondering how Shepherds would be up in the hills in the Winter, not considering that the climate could be different in the Holy Land when they were tapping at their keyboards.
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#22

Post by Reality Check »

much ado wrote: Sat Sep 23, 2023 3:05 pm :snippity:
It has to do with the fact that the length of the solar year is more than 365 days.
The solar year (365 days 5 hours 48 minutes 46 seconds), also called tropical year, or year of the seasons, is the time between two successive occurrences of the vernal equinox (the moment when the Sun apparently crosses the celestial equator moving north).
So the exact time of the vernal equinox is 5 hours 48 minutes 46 seconds later each year, unless a leap day has occurred in February before the current vernal equinox, in which case the exact time is 24 hours minus (5 hours 48 minutes 46 seconds) earlier. That is, in a leap year, the exact time of the vernal equinox is 18 hours 11 minutes 14 seconds earlier than the one the year before.

The whole purpose of leap days is to keep the calendar year aligned with the actual solar year so that the time of vernal equinox does not continue to shift later and later through the calendar year as it did before the Gregorian calendar replaced the Julian calendar in 1582 in most countries.

Here is a table of vernal equinox times. You can see the pattern.
https://equinoxworld.org/vernal-equinox-dates/

Gregorian calendar... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar
Yes, you are correct and I should have known better. We go through this cycle every four years of the vernal equinox being later each year until the leap day brings it back in synch (approximately, hence the thing with skipping a leap year once per century unless the century is divisible by 400). Since 2023 is one year before the leap year we have accumulated three years worth of the annual delay in the equinoxes and solstices.

I believe the period of the precession is 26,000 years and it has effects on both the position of the poles in the sky (meaning Polaris will not always be the North Star) and also the timing of the equinoxes in the calendar but the effect is much less than the length of the solar year vs the calendar year.

Precession is also the reason the position of the sun in the sky on the day of the vernal equinoxes has slowly changed over the years. So when astrologers tell you the sun is in Aries on certain dates it really is not. Astrologically speaking I am an Aries (April 3rd) but due to precession the sun was actually in Pisces on the day I was born. I wonder how many people who read their horoscopes daily know it is based on positions of the constellations that are off by several thousand years?
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#23

Post by Reality Check »

Well I never expected to elicit such venom for a flippant remark about the existence of Jesus. I have read enough about the subject to know their are legitimate arguments that he may not have existed much less had supernatural powers.
Suranis wrote:By contrast we have only 4 sources of Socretes existence; Plato, Euripedes, Thucydides and Xenophon. And all 4 writers provide totally contradictory accounts of the man, and Plato openly started putting his own theories into the mouth of Socretes in his Writings. But no, idiots have ever doubted that Socretes existed.
First none of these five claimed to be the son of God. Except for Socrates we have actual writings of all of these philosophers. Plato wrote immediately after Socrates death whereas the first records of Jesus were written many decades after his death. Even the Biblical record contains inexplicable gaps in his life from birth to his early 30's. I think to compare the lack evidence for the existence of the five great philosophers with that of Jesus is just dishonest.

And about Plato putting his own theories into the mouth of Socrates ... isn't that exactly what Paul did only much later after Jesus's death and to a greater extent? I have read one scholar who suggested that Christianity should more correctly known as Paulinity for the reasons that Paul invented so much of the Christian dogma we know today.

Of course the Trinity was a later invention too. The word was never mentioned in the Bible and those few passages where anything like the Trinity are suggested are considered to be forgeries inserted later by some. Trinity Fraud in King James Bible
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#24

Post by Suranis »

Reality Check wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 3:03 pm Well I never expected to elicit such venom for a flippant remark about the existence of Jesus. I have read enough about the subject to know their are legitimate arguments that he may not have existed much less had supernatural powers.


Again, that puts you on the level of people who say there are "legitimate doubts" about human caused climate change. The VAST majority of historians accept that Jesus the Man existed. If he didnt that means you have to doubt pretty much any figure in history.
First none of these five claimed to be the son of God.
So? You can claim you are the son of God and still exist.
Except for Socrates we have actual writings of all of these philosophers. Plato wrote immediately after Socrates death whereas the first records of Jesus were written many decades after his death.
Sorry, they are all fake, just like people say the mentions of Jesus in Tacitus and Josephus are fake when they are brought up.

"many Decades" is stretched out. The first of the Canonical Gospels, Mark, was written 20 years after Jesus's death, which is well within living memory. The others 30 years after his death. Real scholars theories that both Mathew and Luke were based on earlier sources, now lost. AND, sorry to shock you, but you are making the Serious mistake of assuming that the 4 Gospels were the only books ever written from the time about Jesus. If you include the fragments of the 20 other Gospels that we have, you can see there were people writing about Jesus straight away.

REAL Scholars would know about those other Gospels.
Even the Biblical record contains inexplicable gaps in his life from birth to his early 30's. I think to compare the lack evidence for the existence of the five great philosophers with that of Jesus is just dishonest.
Really? So you admit the fact of Socretes, Platos, etc existence even though we know fuck all about their childhood or early adulthood till they started Philosophizing? People tend hot to bother writing about people till they start doing what they are famous for. We don't have a single word about what Punctiius Plate did before be became Governor of Palistine either. The only evidence we have of him existing is the Gospels, and yet no-one is saying Punctious Pilate didn't exist.

I'm sure people writing out this by hand would have been thrilled to waste their time recount all about when Jesus tripped and stubbed his toe when he was 15 just so internet Scholars can rant about it. PLUS one of those other Gospels I spoke about spoke about fills in some of the blanks about what Jesus was like as a child. Pretty much a monster, as it happens.
And about Plato putting his own theories into the mouth of Socrates ... isn't that exactly what Paul did only much later after Jesus's death and to a greater extent?


Nope. Paul never claimed to be speaking in anything other than his own voice. Plato literally put his own theories on the page and said that Socrates was saying the words.

BUT THE POINT I WAS MAKING is that we have Lots more sources that attest to Jesus's existence than pretty much any other figure of the time. Just focusing on Socrates is missing the point. If we have to doubt Jesus's existance, why not doubt Socretes? Theres less sources saying he esisted.

Why are we not doubting the Existence of Buddha? Muhummed? We don't have a word written by them either. The Koran we have today probably wasn't the one that was written by him as there was a giant civil war after he died, and all competing version of the Koran other than the proponents of the version that won were burned.
I have read one scholar who suggested that Christianity should more correctly known as Paulinity for the reasons that Paul invented so much of the Christian dogma we know today.
Paul was not a source for Jesus's existence as he never talked directly about him, though its very possible that he met Jesus. He was not a witness.

If you want to talk about irrelevent things that's fine but it does not change the fact that Jesus existed. Plus you, know the church fathers had a big influence.
Of course the Trinity was a later invention too. The word was never mentioned in the Bible and those few passages where anything like the Trinity are suggested are considered to be forgeries inserted later by some. Trinity Fraud in King James Bible
Why should I care about what was said in the King James Bible? Firstly it was full of Translation errors, as the Translators themselves apologized for in the foreword.

Second St Patrick was explaining the Trinity to the Pagan Irish 800 years before the King James was written, and the Irish understood it very well because THEY had a Trinity God - the Morrigan.

THIRD the Nicean Creed was written in the 4th Century, and that Mentions the Trinity pretty clearly. "And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God,] Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, in one being with the Father;"

The creed of the Council of Constantinople a few decades later contained similar language.

FOURTH not only was the King James Bible not the first English Bible By a factor of Centuries, it wasn't even the first English Bible translated by Roman Catholics. The Catholic Douay–Rheims Bible preceded it by Decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_E ... anslations

So if you are saying that your "scholars" were saying that the Trinity is based on the King James Bible, then your "scholars" on the Skeptical of Christianity website don't know shit.

PLUS... you know, even if the Trinity is bullshit, it does not change the fact that Jesus the man existed.

You don't Have to believe the guy was the Son of God to accept that Jesus the man existed. And that he wasn't based on Horus beating Set by smearing lettuce with his Semen and having Isis persuade Set to eat it.
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#25

Post by Reality Check »

Horus is not the only story of virgin births and god aided conceptions in the ancient world. There are many. Yes, I agree the concept of the Trinity arose at the Council Nicaea hundreds of years after Jesus was supposed to have lived.
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