Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Chauvin has not been charged with "murder one" or "first degree murder."
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
It needn’t even have been the whole 9.5 minutes. I think a reasonable jury could infer that Chauvin formed the intent to kill around the time Floyd said he couldn’t breathe and Chauvin didn’t get up.sterngard friegen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:08 amThat's incorrect. Intent to murder doesn't have to be formed "that morning" or "before the encounter." It only has to be formed before the murder. I'd say the 9 minutes and 29 seconds demonstrates that intent, the "malice aforethought."noblepa wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:39 am IANAL, but it is my understanding that first degree murder requires that the defendant went into the situation with the intent of killing the victim; that the defendant planned the murder beforehand.
While I agree that Chauvin is guilty as hell, I'm not convinced it should be murder one.
Chauvin may very well have made the decision, after the encounter began, that he was going to "kill the SOB", but I seriously doubt that he got up that morning, thinking "I'm going to kill George Floyd today". It is my understanding that this is what the prosecution would have had to prove, with that level of specificity, in order to convict him of murder one.
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
- fierceredpanda
- Posts: 590
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:11 pm
- Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left at the portrait of George III
- Occupation: Criminal defense attorney. I am not your lawyer. My posts != legal advice.
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
I really want to push back on the general consensus here that Schleicher is doing a bad job. This is not a personal injury case where cranking up the level of emotion is the whole point of closing. After a week of the defense throwing poop at the wall, the prosecution needs to systematically and methodically (and, yes, repeatedly) review the facts and the testimony to show that Derek Chauvin caused George Floyd's death. He's walking them through the defense's theories and closing them off, one by one. It's workmanlike and not glamorous, but it is effective.
I am quite sure we will see Blackwell on rebuttal to be George Floyd's voice. But as an appeal to the jury's common sense to get them to believe their own eyes and set aside the distractions put up by Chauvin's attorney, I think this closing works.
I am quite sure we will see Blackwell on rebuttal to be George Floyd's voice. But as an appeal to the jury's common sense to get them to believe their own eyes and set aside the distractions put up by Chauvin's attorney, I think this closing works.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple. The smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
I think the prosecutor might be hitting his stride a little bit. His closing is getting better with time. He's getting into more nitty gritty and it seems he's better when he's getting more into details.
I should mention, I know that my feed is slower and I am seeing things probably several minutes later than others. I am finally at the part that FRP is talking about, one by one systematically closing down the various nonsensical defense theories. And I also have the opinion he's doing a good job at this point. I think he got a poor start though. But he's doing well now, IMO. Actually, quite well.
I should mention, I know that my feed is slower and I am seeing things probably several minutes later than others. I am finally at the part that FRP is talking about, one by one systematically closing down the various nonsensical defense theories. And I also have the opinion he's doing a good job at this point. I think he got a poor start though. But he's doing well now, IMO. Actually, quite well.
"It actually doesn't take much to be considered a difficult woman. That's why there are so many of us."
--Jane Goodall
--Jane Goodall
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
I can only judge from my own perspective. I was so bored I shut the tee vee off. Although I never tried a personal injury case, I think this is the ultimate personal injury case.
I have tried many commercial disputes. You never want to bore your jury.
I have tried many commercial disputes. You never want to bore your jury.
- sterngard friegen
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:51 am
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Schleicher continues to stumble his way through a disorganized and meandering closing.
Neither disbarred nor disciplined after representing President Barack Obama.
- fierceredpanda
- Posts: 590
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:11 pm
- Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left at the portrait of George III
- Occupation: Criminal defense attorney. I am not your lawyer. My posts != legal advice.
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
You're the one who said the jury would convict today because they don't want to be sequestered, Stern. By that logic, if it's so in-the-bag, what does Schleicher's performance even matter?sterngard friegen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:03 pm Schleicher continues to stumble his way through a disorganized and meandering closing.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple. The smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton
- sterngard friegen
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:51 am
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
After repeating the same thing numerous times, Schleicher finally sat down. My prediction was based on a belief we'd have a competent closing argument. Even one of the CNN talking heads is criticizing the closing.fierceredpanda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:15 pmYou're the one who said the jury would convict today because they don't want to be sequestered, Stern. By that logic, if it's so in-the-bag, what does Schleicher's performance even matter?sterngard friegen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:03 pm Schleicher continues to stumble his way through a disorganized and meandering closing.
Neither disbarred nor disciplined after representing President Barack Obama.
- sugar magnolia
- Posts: 3890
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:54 pm
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
They said this morning before the closing arguments even started that Blackwell would be giving the second part, after Nelson.
From a non-lawyer standpoint, I agree it was boring, but I also think he went through each point with whatever visual aids he needed and put things in a nice, linear order to make his points. I suspect the jurors will see things from a little different perspective than an attorney does. Laying it out chronologically, step by step was very effective to me. I was surprised it lasted less than 2 hours though.
From a non-lawyer standpoint, I agree it was boring, but I also think he went through each point with whatever visual aids he needed and put things in a nice, linear order to make his points. I suspect the jurors will see things from a little different perspective than an attorney does. Laying it out chronologically, step by step was very effective to me. I was surprised it lasted less than 2 hours though.
- fierceredpanda
- Posts: 590
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:11 pm
- Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left at the portrait of George III
- Occupation: Criminal defense attorney. I am not your lawyer. My posts != legal advice.
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
If y'all thought Schleicher wasn't good, Nelson sounds like he's pleading with the jury to find a reason to acquit.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple. The smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton
- sugar magnolia
- Posts: 3890
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:54 pm
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Now he's just making shit up. Or he's too stupid to know the difference between carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide.fierceredpanda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:45 pm If y'all thought Schleicher wasn't good, Nelson sounds like he's pleading with the jury to find a reason to acquit.
- sterngard friegen
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:51 am
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Nelson sounded bad until he made this point: How can Floyd's blood show 98% oxygenation when he supposedly died of lack of oxygen?fierceredpanda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:45 pm If y'all thought Schleicher wasn't good, Nelson sounds like he's pleading with the jury to find a reason to acquit.
I didn't hear the prosecution explain that possible contradiction during the redirect of the breathing expert.
Neither disbarred nor disciplined after representing President Barack Obama.
- sterngard friegen
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:51 am
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Nelson is now just bullshitting, throwing up one irrelevance after another. He should have saved the oxygenation argument for the end of his argument. He's just covered it up with verbal manure.
Neither disbarred nor disciplined after representing President Barack Obama.
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
This thread is more interesting than the arguments.
- sugar magnolia
- Posts: 3890
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:54 pm
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
I believe Tobin covered that with the mechanical asphyxia testimony? You have to be actively respiring to draw in carbon monoxide to die from it. George Floyd wasn't actively respiring with 3 people sitting on him.sterngard friegen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:54 pmNelson sounded bad until he made this point: How can Floyd's blood show 98% oxygenation when he supposedly died of lack of oxygen?fierceredpanda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:45 pm If y'all thought Schleicher wasn't good, Nelson sounds like he's pleading with the jury to find a reason to acquit.
I didn't hear the prosecution explain that possible contradiction during the redirect of the breathing expert.
- sugar magnolia
- Posts: 3890
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:54 pm
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Nelson keeps saying they couldn't get him in the car. They not only got him in the car, they pulled him all the way through it. One of them even says "let's take him out."
- LM K
- Posts: 3144
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:44 pm
- Location: Oregon
- Occupation: Professor Shrinky Lady, brainwashing young adults daily!
- Contact:
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
I agree. I found the linear progression to be clarifying, esp about use of force and how that relates to the legal standard for all 3 charges.sugar magnolia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:30 pm They said this morning before the closing arguments even started that Blackwell would be giving the second part, after Nelson.
From a non-lawyer standpoint, I agree it was boring, but I also think he went through each point with whatever visual aids he needed and put things in a nice, linear order to make his points. I suspect the jurors will see things from a little different perspective than an attorney does. Laying it out chronologically, step by step was very effective to me. I was surprised it lasted less than 2 hours though.
I believe that the prosecution did a good job explaining what a reasonable officer would perceive and act.
It's stunning to me that Nelson is throwing the other officers under the bus. Nelson keeps mentioning things that video evidence directly contradicts, and that the Minneapolis training says not to do. Nelson, while trying to create doubt about the evidence keeps underlining that Chauvin's actions were brutal, unnecessary, and illegal.
Nelson: "The state keeps focusing on the 9 mins and 26 seconds."
Du'h.
"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
From "Take the Money and Run"
From "Take the Money and Run"
- sugar magnolia
- Posts: 3890
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:54 pm
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
He also said a reasonable officer would take the entire 16 minutes prior to them bringing Floyd out of the car and down to the ground. That might be true of Keung and the other one, but Chauvin wasn't there for the prior 16 minutes.LM K wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:37 pmI agree. I found the linear progression to be clarifying, esp about use of force and how that relates to the legal standard for all 3 charges.sugar magnolia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:30 pm They said this morning before the closing arguments even started that Blackwell would be giving the second part, after Nelson.
From a non-lawyer standpoint, I agree it was boring, but I also think he went through each point with whatever visual aids he needed and put things in a nice, linear order to make his points. I suspect the jurors will see things from a little different perspective than an attorney does. Laying it out chronologically, step by step was very effective to me. I was surprised it lasted less than 2 hours though.
I believe that the prosecution did a good job explaining what a reasonable officer would perceive and act.
It's stunning to me that Nelson is throwing the other officers under the bus. Nelson keeps mentioning things that video evidence directly contradicts, and that the Minneapolis training says not to do. Nelson, while trying to create doubt about the evidence keeps underlining that Chauvin's actions were brutal, unnecessary, and illegal.
Nelson: "The state keeps focusing on the 9 mins and 26 seconds."
Du'h.
- LM K
- Posts: 3144
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:44 pm
- Location: Oregon
- Occupation: Professor Shrinky Lady, brainwashing young adults daily!
- Contact:
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
When someone doesn't breath for several minutes, it doesn't matter that emergency respiration added oxygen to Floyd's blood. If anything, this highlights that Chauvin had the opportunity to raise Floyd's blood oxygen level using CPR and did the opposite.sugar magnolia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:18 pmI believe Tobin covered that with the mechanical asphyxia testimony? You have to be actively respiring to draw in carbon monoxide to die from it. George Floyd wasn't actively respiring with 3 people sitting on him.sterngard friegen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:54 pmNelson sounded bad until he made this point: How can Floyd's blood show 98% oxygenation when he supposedly died of lack of oxygen?fierceredpanda wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:45 pm If y'all thought Schleicher wasn't good, Nelson sounds like he's pleading with the jury to find a reason to acquit.
I didn't hear the prosecution explain that possible contradiction during the redirect of the breathing expert.
Nelson: "If you are talking, your breathing." So, why did Chauvin stay on Floyd's neck when Floyd was no longer talking!?
Good lord.
"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
From "Take the Money and Run"
From "Take the Money and Run"
- sterngard friegen
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:51 am
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Where is that in the evidence?LM K wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:43 pmWhen someone doesn't breath for several minutes, it doesn't matter that emergency respiration added oxygen to Floyd's blood. If anything, this highlights that Chauvin had the opportunity to raise Floyd's blood oxygen level using CPR and did the opposite.sugar magnolia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:18 pmI believe Tobin covered that with the mechanical asphyxia testimony? You have to be actively respiring to draw in carbon monoxide to die from it. George Floyd wasn't actively respiring with 3 people sitting on him.sterngard friegen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:54 pm
Nelson sounded bad until he made this point: How can Floyd's blood show 98% oxygenation when he supposedly died of lack of oxygen?
I didn't hear the prosecution explain that possible contradiction during the redirect of the breathing expert.
Nelson: "If you are talking, your breathing." So, why did Chauvin stay on Floyd's neck when Floyd was no longer talking!?
Good lord.
Neither disbarred nor disciplined after representing President Barack Obama.
- LM K
- Posts: 3144
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:44 pm
- Location: Oregon
- Occupation: Professor Shrinky Lady, brainwashing young adults daily!
- Contact:
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Nelson is stupid to show Floyd dying repeatedly.
Oh, and EMS coming, so Chauvin wasn't responsible to assist Floyd after he stopped breathing and had no pulse.
"A reasonable police officer" ... when another officer asks if they should turn Floyd over, Chauvin ignored his training. When another officer says Floyd has no pulse, Chauvin ignored his training. When a fellow officer points out that Floyd is passing out, Chauvin ignored his training.
How does any of that support that Chauvin was a "reasonable officer"?
Oh, and EMS coming, so Chauvin wasn't responsible to assist Floyd after he stopped breathing and had no pulse.
"A reasonable police officer" ... when another officer asks if they should turn Floyd over, Chauvin ignored his training. When another officer says Floyd has no pulse, Chauvin ignored his training. When a fellow officer points out that Floyd is passing out, Chauvin ignored his training.
How does any of that support that Chauvin was a "reasonable officer"?
"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
From "Take the Money and Run"
From "Take the Money and Run"
- LM K
- Posts: 3144
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:44 pm
- Location: Oregon
- Occupation: Professor Shrinky Lady, brainwashing young adults daily!
- Contact:
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
It's just my .02. If emergency respiration doesn't work, it's because the patient is dead. If you don't have a pulse, and reoxygenation doesn't work, it's because the body can't process oxygen anymore.sterngard friegen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:50 pmWhere is that in the evidence?LM K wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:43 pmWhen someone doesn't breath for several minutes, it doesn't matter that emergency respiration added oxygen to Floyd's blood. If anything, this highlights that Chauvin had the opportunity to raise Floyd's blood oxygen level using CPR and did the opposite.sugar magnolia wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:18 pm
I believe Tobin covered that with the mechanical asphyxia testimony? You have to be actively respiring to draw in carbon monoxide to die from it. George Floyd wasn't actively respiring with 3 people sitting on him.
Nelson: "If you are talking, your breathing." So, why did Chauvin stay on Floyd's neck when Floyd was no longer talking!?
Good lord.
"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
From "Take the Money and Run"
From "Take the Money and Run"
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Even the cop in Chicago immediately rendered first aid to the 13 year old kid he shot.LM K wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:51 pm Nelson is stupid to show Floyd dying repeatedly.
Oh, and EMS coming, so Chauvin wasn't responsible to assist Floyd after he stopped breathing and had no pulse.
"A reasonable police officer" ... when another officer asks if they should turn Floyd over, Chauvin ignored his training. When another officer says Floyd has no pulse, Chauvin ignored his training. When a fellow officer points out that Floyd is passing out, Chauvin ignored his training.
How does any of that support that Chauvin was a "reasonable officer"?
- LM K
- Posts: 3144
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:44 pm
- Location: Oregon
- Occupation: Professor Shrinky Lady, brainwashing young adults daily!
- Contact:
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Exactly.filly wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:06 pmEven the cop in Chicago immediately rendered first aid to the 13 year old kid he shot.LM K wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:51 pm Nelson is stupid to show Floyd dying repeatedly.
Oh, and EMS coming, so Chauvin wasn't responsible to assist Floyd after he stopped breathing and had no pulse.
"A reasonable police officer" ... when another officer asks if they should turn Floyd over, Chauvin ignored his training. When another officer says Floyd has no pulse, Chauvin ignored his training. When a fellow officer points out that Floyd is passing out, Chauvin ignored his training.
How does any of that support that Chauvin was a "reasonable officer"?
Omg. Nelson just said that a reasonable officer has to do to weigh the cost/benefit of removing handcuffs. I guess large black men are a threat when dead.
"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
From "Take the Money and Run"
From "Take the Money and Run"
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
It's a hundreds of years old racist trope is that black men have superhuman strength.
The prosecutor addressed this (unpassionately) in the first part of the State's closing.
Here's hoping Mr. Blackwell uses his expertise at eloquent passionate argument.
The prosecutor addressed this (unpassionately) in the first part of the State's closing.
Here's hoping Mr. Blackwell uses his expertise at eloquent passionate argument.