Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

boots
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1251

Post by boots »

I don't really see a MAGA hat as a symbol of racism. There are too many non-racists and even minorities who wear them and who support Trump for that to be true.

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p0rtia
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1252

Post by p0rtia »

boots wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:58 am
I don't really see a MAGA hat as a symbol of racism. There are too many non-racists and even minorities who wear them and who support Trump for that to be true.
I see it as a symbol of racism, a symbol that is becoming clearer every day. Racist/support racism and racist policies. No meaningful different anymore.

Also, the fact that minorities wear them does not mean that they are not racist or that the hats they wear are not symbols of racism.
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boots
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1253

Post by boots »

I can get why you think that, but your thinking that is sort of the democrat equivalent of a republican from a heavily republican area believing that Obama was a secret Muslim. I know it may be hard to believe, but there are decent people who are Republicans and who support Trump. Mean people suck, and are the problem, regardless of their party affiliation.

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p0rtia
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1254

Post by p0rtia »

boots wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:14 pm
I can get why you think that, but your thinking that is sort of the democrat equivalent of a republican from a heavily republican area believing that Obama was a secret Muslim. I know it may be hard to believe, but there are decent people who are Republicans and who support Trump. Mean people suck, and are the problem, regardless of their party affiliation.
I have a lot of friends who are Trump supporters. We don't talk politics. We play tennis, bridge, and meet a parties and have a good time. They are neighbors. They are decent people most of the time--they help me out when I have problems without question. They're not at all mean. To me. Yet they are racist. They make openly racist comments (usually not around me, but sometimes) and vote for Trump because (they state) they don't want people of color coming into this country, because they are likely to commit crimes, they are unclean, and they are just coming to take advantage of our liberal system. They think what is happening at the border is the 100 percent the problem of the immigrants, and that the reports of what is happening to them are their own fault, or untrue.

I'll modify to "in general" people who wear MAGA hats are racist/are okay with racism.

Of course there are Republicans who are not racist (I have a bunch of them as friends too, and they are incredibly upset about what is going on). "In general," Most of the them do not wear MAGA hats.

FTR, 1) I don't live in a heavily Democratic area, and 2) thinking someone is a racist because they wear a MAGA hat (>zero probability of truth) is not the same as believing Obama is a Muslim (zero probability of truth). Pick another one.

(edited for typos)
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Patagoniagirl
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1255

Post by Patagoniagirl »

I disagree. Even with p0rtia, who I LOVE. IF YOU FUCKING SUPPORT TRUMP, you are condoning racism. That makes you a racist. Or, because you are racist you support Trump. Yes, we have to live in this putrid stench of racism, but I don't, and won't be complicit by ignoring it.

Treating MAGA's with common Human courtesy is like having a nice time drinking beers or sharing a chummy meal with a Nazi.

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Reality Check
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1256

Post by Reality Check »

boots wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:14 pm
I can get why you think that, but your thinking that is sort of the democrat equivalent of a republican from a heavily republican area believing that Obama was a secret Muslim. I know it may be hard to believe, but there are decent people who are Republicans and who support Trump. Mean people suck, and are the problem, regardless of their party affiliation.
Your analogy is ridiculous. Obama was not a secret Muslim. Trump is a flaming racist.
"“If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention.”

Heather Heyer, November 2016

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p0rtia
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1257

Post by p0rtia »

Patagoniagirl wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:39 pm
I disagree. Even with p0rtia, who I LOVE. IF YOU FUCKING SUPPORT TRUMP, you are condoning racism. That makes you a racist. Or, because you are racist you support Trump. Yes, we have to live in this putrid stench of racism, but I don't, and won't be complicit by ignoring it.

Treating MAGA's with common Human courtesy is like having a nice time drinking beers or sharing a chummy meal with a Nazi.
I think you just agreed with me (though you said it with much stronger words :blink: ). Or maybe I did a typo (sadly more and more common). Anyway: I also see the MAGA had as a symbol of racism.

Actually I was intentionally leaving my left flank open to reproach for the "How can you step on a tennis court with these cretans!" counterpoint. Happy to report that the day one of our group arrived wearing a MAGA hat, she was told to take it off and did so.
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p0rtia
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1258

Post by p0rtia »

Everybody says what I say with way fewer words. :towel:
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Chilidog
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1259

Post by Chilidog »

I have friends, family, acquaintances, co-workers etc. Who are Trump supporters. And yes, some of them are overt racists as well.

I still have to deal with these people in my daily life.

You can't change people overnight.
Some, I try to gently educate about the flaws in their arguments. I think it works, because they stop using those arguments.

I try to lead by example. That's the best anyone can do, really.

Jeffrey
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1260

Post by Jeffrey »

Reality Check wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:50 am
The article was not defamatory and Judge Bertelson gave a thorough explanation why it was not.
I'm allowed to disagree with Judge Bertelson's reasoning. Would you be okay with a newspaper writing false things about your kid by arguing that your kid wasn't directly named and that he was merely identified via photographs and video?
Reality Check wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:50 am
How did they know a longer video existed? The confrontation had already exploded on social media. If media outlets had to wait for the last possible shred of evidence on every story they would never publish anything.
That's fair, the full video took two days to be released, it would be unreasonable to expect the Post to sit on the story for two days. However, I mentioned something they could have done before the full video was released and that was to interview other witnesses to confirm the video was an accurate representation of the encounter.
Reality Check wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:50 am
That's your opinion that the video was deceptively edited and false claims were made.
I've yet to hear you or the people who agree with the decision explain how that video was not deceptive or that the claims were false. The video gave the impression that the teens were harassing a Native American veteran. That's the impression news outlets got, that's the impression people here got, that's the impression I got when I linked the article to people along with a comment trashing the kids. We know that's not what actually happened now. In plain English, that video was deceptive. Making people believe a group of teens had done that was defamatory.

I realize the concept of truth and lies has been eroded in the Trump post-truth alternative-facts era, but I don't subscribe to that level of subjectivism.

boots
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1261

Post by boots »

Reality Check wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:04 pm
boots wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:14 pm
I can get why you think that, but your thinking that is sort of the democrat equivalent of a republican from a heavily republican area believing that Obama was a secret Muslim. I know it may be hard to believe, but there are decent people who are Republicans and who support Trump. Mean people suck, and are the problem, regardless of their party affiliation.
Your analogy is ridiculous. Obama was not a secret Muslim. Trump is a flaming racist.
You just tried to move the goalpost there.

Groups of persons who only talk to others who are similarly extreme, sometimes believe Obama was a secret muslim. That belief is false.

Groups of persons who only talk to others who are similarly extreme (or perhaps are talking to them at the time) might say everyone who wears a MAGA hat is a racist.

boots
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1262

Post by boots »

Patagoniagirl wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:39 pm
I disagree. Even with p0rtia, who I LOVE. IF YOU FUCKING SUPPORT TRUMP, you are condoning racism. That makes you a racist. Or, because you are racist you support Trump. Yes, we have to live in this putrid stench of racism, but I don't, and won't be complicit by ignoring it.

Treating MAGA's with common Human courtesy is like having a nice time drinking beers or sharing a chummy meal with a Nazi.
That's ignorant. I know many good people, some of them black or other minorities, who support trump and who are not racists. I happen to live in an area that is a) historically Republican, and b) not very racist at all. I see it all the time.

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bob
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1263

Post by bob »

"The video depicts ..." is a true statement of what the video depicts.

Words like "swarm," "taunt," "block," and "harass" are subjective, i.e., are opinions. Especially when expressed by Phillips about his belief regarding what happened. Phillips is allowed his opinion, and WaPo is allowed to convey Phillips' opinion.


Saying what WaPo should have done goes to ethics and best practices, and not necessarily defamation.
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tek
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1264

Post by tek »

I think we need to understand that we each live in a different slice of the universe, and one person's reality can well be completely inconsistent with another's..

I interact with quite a few people of color in the course of a week here, and as far as I can tell they all at best "don't care for" Trump. But it rarely comes up in discussion, and MAGA hats are pretty rare around here..

I reported on my preconceived notions getting a hard reset over in viewtopic.php?p=1101155#p1101155 .. so I'm trying to be a bit more aware..

...tom


"It ain't ignorance that causes all the trouble in this world. It's the things people know that ain't so."
-- E. H. Armstrong, who had a major impact on your life even if you don't know who he is..
There's no way back
from there to here

boots
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1265

Post by boots »

p0rtia wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:40 pm
boots wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:14 pm
I can get why you think that, but your thinking that is sort of the democrat equivalent of a republican from a heavily republican area believing that Obama was a secret Muslim. I know it may be hard to believe, but there are decent people who are Republicans and who support Trump. Mean people suck, and are the problem, regardless of their party affiliation.
I have a lot of friends who are Trump supporters. We don't talk politics. We play tennis, bridge, and meet a parties and have a good time. They are neighbors. They are decent people most of the time--they help me out when I have problems without question. They're not at all mean. To me. Yet they are racist. They make openly racist comments (usually not around me, but sometimes) and vote for Trump because (they state) they don't want people of color coming into this country, because they are likely to commit crimes, they are unclean, and they are just coming to take advantage of our liberal system. They think what is happening at the border is the 100 percent the problem of the immigrants, and that the reports of what is happening to them are their own fault, or untrue.

I :snippity: :snippity:
(edited for typos)
You go to racist bridge parties?

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p0rtia
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1266

Post by p0rtia »

boots wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:15 pm
p0rtia wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:40 pm
boots wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:14 pm
I can get why you think that, but your thinking that is sort of the democrat equivalent of a republican from a heavily republican area believing that Obama was a secret Muslim. I know it may be hard to believe, but there are decent people who are Republicans and who support Trump. Mean people suck, and are the problem, regardless of their party affiliation.
I have a lot of friends who are Trump supporters. We don't talk politics. We play tennis, bridge, and meet a parties and have a good time. They are neighbors. They are decent people most of the time--they help me out when I have problems without question. They're not at all mean. To me. Yet they are racist. They make openly racist comments (usually not around me, but sometimes) and vote for Trump because (they state) they don't want people of color coming into this country, because they are likely to commit crimes, they are unclean, and they are just coming to take advantage of our liberal system. They think what is happening at the border is the 100 percent the problem of the immigrants, and that the reports of what is happening to them are their own fault, or untrue.

I :snippity: :snippity:
(edited for typos)
You go to racist bridge parties?
Of course not. I'm shocked that you would say that. I wouldn't stoop to play party bridge. I play duplicate. :geezerette:
No matter where you go, there you are! :towel:
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Jeffrey
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1267

Post by Jeffrey »

bob wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:59 pm
Words like "swarm," "taunt," "block," and "harass" are subjective, i.e., are opinions. Especially when expressed by Phillips about his belief regarding what happened. Phillips is allowed his opinion, and WaPo is allowed to convey Phillips' opinion.
Swarm in this context is not subjective. To say that the teens swarmed Philips means that they approached and surrounded him. That didn’t happen. Philips approached them and placed himself between them and the BHI.

boots
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1268

Post by boots »

p0rtia wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:22 pm
boots wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:15 pm
p0rtia wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:40 pm


I have a lot of friends who are Trump supporters. We don't talk politics. We play tennis, bridge, and meet a parties and have a good time. They are neighbors. They are decent people most of the time--they help me out when I have problems without question. They're not at all mean. To me. Yet they are racist. They make openly racist comments (usually not around me, but sometimes) and vote for Trump because (they state) they don't want people of color coming into this country, because they are likely to commit crimes, they are unclean, and they are just coming to take advantage of our liberal system. They think what is happening at the border is the 100 percent the problem of the immigrants, and that the reports of what is happening to them are their own fault, or untrue.

I :snippity: :snippity:
(edited for typos)
You go to racist bridge parties?
Of course not. I'm shocked that you would say that. I wouldn't stoop to play party bridge. I play duplicate. :geezerette:
I assume that means something to someone there

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RoadScholar
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1269

Post by RoadScholar »

“Make America Great Again” contains implicit racism, misogyny, xenophobia, and intolerance, according to the subscriber’s understanding of why (to them) America is no longer great.

What do they want to go back to? What is the “lost” greatness made of?

I have heard Trump supporters say that America was denigrated and weakened by at least one of the following:

The Civil Rights revolution. Feminism. Land-use restrictions. Immigration. Women having the vote. Allowing people to speak languages other than English. Environmental protection. Public health initiatives. Having to work beside gay folk. Freedom of the press. Mixed-race marriages. Child protective services. Income tax. Multilateral agreements and treaties. Same-sex marriage. Jews and Muslims integrated into our society. Renewable energy.

Do you agree? Does anyone agree who is not a racist, homophobe, misogynist, bigot, or die-hard fan of unbridled corporate greed? (I include those who harbor those beliefs but are in denial about them.)

More importantly, how does holding those views about why America is no longer great square with our most basic American values? With “We hold these Truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal?” With “Congress is empowered to pass laws to promote the general welfare?” With “I lift my lamp beside the golden door?”

It doesn’t. It goes against these values. Instead of seeing that all these things have gradually enhanced our greatness, it longs for a return to protectionism, Protestant Anglo-Saxon hegemony, straight male dominance... and brutally-enforced conformity with all of the above.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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boots
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1270

Post by boots »

RoadScholar wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:49 pm
“Make America Great Again” contains implicit racism, misogyny, xenophobia, and intolerance, according to the subscriber’s understanding of why (to them) America is no longer great.

What do they want to go back to? What is the “lost” greatness made of?

I have heard Trump supporters say that America was denigrated and weakened by at least one of the following:

The Civil Rights revolution. Feminism. Immigration. Women having the vote. Allowing people to speak languages other than English. Environmental protection. Public health initiatives. Having to work beside gay folk. Freedom of the press. Mixed-race marriages. Child protective services. Income tax. Multilateral agreements and treaties. Same-sex marriage. Jews and Muslims integrated into our society. Renewable energy.

Do you agree? Does anyone agree who is not a racist, homophobe, misogynist, or bigot? (I include those who harbor those beliefs but are in denial about them.)

More importantly, how does holding those views about why America is no longer great square with our most basic American values? With “We hold these Truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal?” With “Congress is empowered to pass laws to promote the general welfare?” With “I lift my lamp beside the golden door?”

It doesn’t. It goes against these values. Instead of seeing that all these things have gradually enhanced our greatness, it longs for a return to protectionism, Protestant Anglo-Saxon hegemony, straight male dominance... and brutally-enforced conformity with all of the above.
Aw crap. You guys are going make me argue stuff that sounds pro-Trump. I think many people are nostalgic for things of the past, in politics and otherwise, and for simpler times in general. I think there are a lot of people who may wear such a hat (and I'm not one of them, to be clear) who get there because they identify as Republicans.

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RoadScholar
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1271

Post by RoadScholar »

Well, that’s covered by my “denial” clause. Specifically, denial about what the Republican Party stands for (currently).
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1272

Post by Grumpy Old Guy »

p0rtia wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:22 pm
boots wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:15 pm
p0rtia wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:40 pm


I have a lot of friends who are Trump supporters. :snippity:

I :snippity: :snippity:
(edited for typos)
You go to racist bridge parties?
Of course not. I'm shocked that you would say that. I wouldn't stoop to play party bridge. I play duplicate. :geezerette:
My dad played at a duplicate bridge club. The local weekly reported the scores.
I haven’t the patience for cards.
Portia, I admire that you are that cerebral.

boots
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1273

Post by boots »

RoadScholar wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:01 pm
Well, that’s covered by my “denial” clause.
No, it isn't actually.

I'll tell my friend Nate, a lawyer who is black and who supports Trump, that he must be a racist and hate colored people. He'll be surprised to know that I am sure.

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bob
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1274

Post by bob »

Jeffrey wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:26 pm
Swarm in this context is not subjective.
The judge literally ruled that "swarm" was subjective and therefore a nondefamatory opinion. The judge also ruled that Phillips was entitled to opine that he had been swarmed.

You are, of course, free to have a different opinion about what happened, but differing opinions cannot be the basis for defamation.
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boots
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1275

Post by boots »

Anti SLAPP laws, and the First Amendment, are good things.

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