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The Russian Orthodox Church role in the Ukraine Invasion

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Suranis
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The Russian Orthodox Church role in the Ukraine Invasion

#1

Post by Suranis »

People were talking about this in the Pope Francis thread, so I'm opening a thread for it.

My contribution is I have no idea about it at al, so I have nothing to contribute. I imagine there are Pro Putin Reactionary elements within the ROC, but besides that I really don't know a thing.
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Chilidog
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role (if any) in the Ukraine Invasion

#2

Post by Chilidog »

raison de arizona wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:11 pm Official statement.
Patriarch Kirill's address to the hierarchs, clergy, monastics, and faithful of the Russian Orthodox Church
Patriarch Kirill's address to the hierarchs, clergy, monastics, and faithful of the Russian Orthodox ChurchVersion for print
24 February 2022 year 18:00
On February 24, 2022, His Holiness Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia issued an address to the hierarchs, clergy, monastics, and all faithful of the Russian Orthodox Church. The statement reads as follows:

Your Beatitude! Your Eminences and Graces! Dear fathers, brothers, and sisters!

I take the suffering of people caused by the events taking place with deep and heartfelt pain.

As the Patriarch of All Russia and the primate of a Church whose flock is located in Russia, Ukraine, and other countries, I deeply empathize with everyone affected by this tragedy.

I call on all parties to the conflict to do everything possible to avoid civilian casualties.

I appeal to the bishops, pastors, monastics, and laity to provide all possible assistance to all victims, including refugees and people left homeless and without means of livelihood.

The Russian and Ukrainian peoples have a common centuries-old history dating back to the Baptism of Rus’ by Prince St. Vladimir the Equal-to-the-Apostles. I believe that this God-given affinity will help overcome the divisions and disagreements that have arisen that have led to the current conflict.

I call on the entire fullness of the Russian Orthodox Church to offer a special, fervent prayer for the speedy restoration of peace.

May the All-merciful Lord, through the intercession of our Most Pure Lady the Theotokos and all the saints, preserve the Russian, Ukrainian, and other peoples who are spiritually united by our Church!

+KIRILL

PATRIARCH OF MOSCOW AND ALL RUSSIA
http://www.patriarchia.ru/en/db/text/5903803.html
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pipistrelle
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role (if any) in the Ukraine Invasion

#3

Post by pipistrelle »

I call on all parties to the conflict
both sides
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neeneko
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role (if any) in the Ukraine Invasion

#4

Post by neeneko »

Chilidog wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:11 pm Weak sauce
Yeah. Like anyone who stands to materially benefit from the conclusion of a conflict (but only if they win), I can believe he wants it to be over as quickly as possible with the least bloodshed and grudge as possible. After all, those are going to be his churches and followers if they win.
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role (if any) in the Ukraine Invasion

#5

Post by northland10 »

neeneko wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:13 pm
Chilidog wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:11 pm Weak sauce
Yeah. Like anyone who stands to materially benefit from the conclusion of a conflict (but only if they win), I can believe he wants it to be over as quickly as possible with the least bloodshed and grudge as possible. After all, those are going to be his churches and followers if they win.
While the nationality-based structure of some Orthodox churches (Russian, Ukraine, Serbian) can help fire up nationalism, I see way more being assumed into this without any sort of real fact-based evidence. We are assuming a great deal.

While not reading most, I have seen various articles bringing up Putin's faith as behind this. The simple fact is, he's a former KGB. Any outward faith is just a way to stir up the nationalism he needs to accomplish whatever goal he currently has. For Putin, it is a tool to accomplish his own wishes and nothing more.

I have still not entirely given up the assumption that this has less to do with Ukraine and more to do with causing division around the world. See what is already doing here. Trump said it would not happen on his watch and that may be true because Trump was Putin's asset. Without Trump, he has to go back to creating division.

The irony is that in trying to create division, he may create too much at home and weaken what he is trying to do. If he stretches himself too thin, it will be hard to put down growing dissension (which hopefully, the CIA and others are already working on).
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neeneko
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role (if any) in the Ukraine Invasion

#6

Post by neeneko »

northland10 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:20 pm
neeneko wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:13 pm
Chilidog wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:11 pm Weak sauce
Yeah. Like anyone who stands to materially benefit from the conclusion of a conflict (but only if they win), I can believe he wants it to be over as quickly as possible with the least bloodshed and grudge as possible. After all, those are going to be his churches and followers if they win.
While the nationality-based structure of some Orthodox churches (Russian, Ukraine, Serbian) can help fire up nationalism, I see way more being assumed into this without any sort of real fact-based evidence. We are assuming a great deal.

While not reading most, I have seen various articles bringing up Putin's faith as behind this. The simple fact is, he's a former KGB. Any outward faith is just a way to stir up the nationalism he needs to accomplish whatever goal he currently has. For Putin, it is a tool to accomplish his own wishes and nothing more.
I think a key point to remember is that this isn't just about Putin. Putin's faith is, well, I would not go as far as 'irrelevent', but I do not think his personal interest in theology is all that motivating. However, a big part of how he built and maintains his power base is the church. Think of them as their own nation within Russia that has significant influence over the population. Ending the schism with the Ukranian church, something the Russian one felt strongly enough to both cut diplomatic ties with other churches over, is a priority of Patriarch Kirill, someone Putin needs in order to maintain his own position.

Narratives tend to focus a bit too much on dictators as singular entities who need no one. While they do not really need the consent of the people, they absolutely do need the support of various keys, and often the interests of the keys will bubble up to actions of the dictator. Putin has his own motivations here, but there are overlapping motivations of the military, church, and oligarchs in play too. This is why so much of the response is focusing on them.. sanctions on the oligarchs, ethnic pressure on the troops, and hopefully political pressure between churches.
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role (if any) in the Ukraine Invasion

#7

Post by W. Kevin Vicklund »

neeneko wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:56 am
northland10 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:20 pm
neeneko wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:13 pm

Yeah. Like anyone who stands to materially benefit from the conclusion of a conflict (but only if they win), I can believe he wants it to be over as quickly as possible with the least bloodshed and grudge as possible. After all, those are going to be his churches and followers if they win.
While the nationality-based structure of some Orthodox churches (Russian, Ukraine, Serbian) can help fire up nationalism, I see way more being assumed into this without any sort of real fact-based evidence. We are assuming a great deal.

While not reading most, I have seen various articles bringing up Putin's faith as behind this. The simple fact is, he's a former KGB. Any outward faith is just a way to stir up the nationalism he needs to accomplish whatever goal he currently has. For Putin, it is a tool to accomplish his own wishes and nothing more.
I think a key point to remember is that this isn't just about Putin. Putin's faith is, well, I would not go as far as 'irrelevent', but I do not think his personal interest in theology is all that motivating. However, a big part of how he built and maintains his power base is the church. Think of them as their own nation within Russia that has significant influence over the population. Ending the schism with the Ukranian church, something the Russian one felt strongly enough to both cut diplomatic ties with other churches over, is a priority of Patriarch Kirill, someone Putin needs in order to maintain his own position.

Narratives tend to focus a bit too much on dictators as singular entities who need no one. While they do not really need the consent of the people, they absolutely do need the support of various keys, and often the interests of the keys will bubble up to actions of the dictator. Putin has his own motivations here, but there are overlapping motivations of the military, church, and oligarchs in play too. This is why so much of the response is focusing on them.. sanctions on the oligarchs, ethnic pressure on the troops, and hopefully political pressure between churches.
I agree; Putin is the model for the OSG in this, as in so many aspects. Putin has little to no personal religion, but is in alliance with the religious right for strategic reasons.
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role (if any) in the Ukraine Invasion

#8

Post by Sam the Centipede »

Isn't it simpler than that? As with the religious right in the US and with Trump, this Christian Dominionism has little to do with religion or faith, it is about (superior) Us and (inferior) Them.

Our history is the best history, our language is the best language, our food is the best food, our poetry is the best poetry, our religion is the best religion, our skin is the best color.
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role (if any) in the Ukraine Invasion

#9

Post by Chilidog »

I this needs to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt.



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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role (if any) in the Ukraine Invasion

#10

Post by neeneko »

Chilidog wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:06 pm I this needs to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt.
I am also pretty skeptical of this. If Putin or his generals DID order such a strike, it would likely alienate his allies in the church, and I am skeptical he could survive that.
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role (if any) in the Ukraine Invasion

#11

Post by Suranis »

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-orthodox ... 30667.html
Orthodox Clerics Call For Stop To War In Ukraine In Rare Challenge To Russian Government

It is very rare for such a large number of religious clerics of the Orthodox Church to openly challenge President Vladimir Putin (right).

In recent years, the Russian Orthodox Church and its leader, Patriarch Kirill (left), who did not sign the letter, have fully supported Putin's policies.

In an unusual move, more than 150 Russian Orthodox clerics have called for an immediate stop to the ongoing war in Ukraine in an open letter issued on March 1.

At least 176 Orthodox clerics said that they "respect the freedom of any person given to him or her by God," adding that the people of Ukraine "must make their own choices by themselves, not at the point of assault rifles and without pressure from either West or East."

The letter says the clerics “bewail” the suffering that has been “undeservingly imposed on our brothers and sisters in Ukraine.”

It is very rare for such a large number of religious clerics of the Orthodox Church to openly challenge President Vladimir Putin's government. In recent years, the Russian Orthodox Church and its leader, Patriarch Kirill, who did not sign the letter, have fully supported Putin's policies.

"We call on all opposing sides for a dialogue because there is no other alternative to violence,” the letter says. “Only an ability to hear the other side can give us hope to get out of the abyss our countries were thrown into several days ago. Let yourself and us all enter the Easter Lent in the spirit of faith and love. Stop the war."

There was no comment or other reaction from Patriarch Kirill or from Russian officials.

The letter makes references to "judgment day” and “eternal suffering,” saying nothing on Earth can prevent that judgment.

“We remind that Christ's blood shed by the Savior for the world's life will be taken in the celebration of the Communion by those who gives murderous orders, not as life, but as eternal suffering.”
The letter. It's in Russian of course. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1yOGuXj ... ested=true
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Re: Russia

#12

Post by poplove »

From 2019: The weaponization of religion: How the Kremlin is using Christian fundamentalism to advance Moscow’s agenda
https://m.day.kyiv.ua/en/article/day-af ... sm-advance
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role (if any) in the Ukraine Invasion

#13

Post by Chilidog »

Well, Kirill is obviously all in on the in invasion.

https://theprint.in/world/in-sunday-ser ... 62058/?amp

He also indicated that he supports invading all the former USSR states.

Asshole.
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role (if any) in the Ukraine Invasion

#14

Post by Chilidog »

In what may be as important as any other battlefield in Ukraine, Moscow is losing the Church war in that country. The autocephalous Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) has notably come out strongly in defense of Ukrainian sovereignty, whereas the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) has adopted a pacifist stance, calling for an end to the fighting rather than Ukrainian resistance to the Russian onslaught. Thus, in war-time Ukraine, the former is gaining ever higher levels of support, while the latter is approaching a state of collapse. In short, many Ukrainians view the Moscow-oriented Church’s position as treasonous and are shifting their allegiance
https://jamestown.org/program/moscow-lo ... e-broadly/

Interesting.
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role (if any) in the Ukraine Invasion

#15

Post by pipistrelle »

I don’t think of this as a war, like Britain bombing Germany and Germany bombing Britain. This is an attack, and Ukraine has every right and reason to defend itself.
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role (if any) in the Ukraine Invasion

#16

Post by Ben-Prime »

So, this was announced today and I'm using one of my 10 'gift article' passes this month to share it with y'all.

Ukrainian Orthodox Church formally breaks with Moscow
But the sunshine aye shall light the sky,
As round and round we run;
And the truth shall ever come uppermost,
And justice shall be done.

- Charles Mackay, "Eternal Justice"
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role (if any) in the Ukraine Invasion

#17

Post by neeneko »

Huh. I think I need a refresher on how the governance system within the Orthadox world works, since I thought they had already done this and Kirill was forcing churches in occupied territory back under his authority.
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role in the Ukraine Invasion

#18

Post by Suranis »

I'm just removing the "(if any)" as its pretty obvious they played a role, and it annoyed me when I saw it today.
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role in the Ukraine Invasion

#19

Post by Foggy »

Thank you, Ben-Prime. I very much appreciate it. :bighug:
Out from under. :thumbsup:
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Re: The Russian Orthodox Church role in the Ukraine Invasion

#20

Post by Ben-Prime »

Foggy wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:03 am Thank you, Ben-Prime. I very much appreciate it. :bighug:
I really should do more often, since I only otherwise share articles with my son, and he's too busy to be reading much lately. Y'all please consider speaking up when there's an article that you can't see and I'll see what I can do.
But the sunshine aye shall light the sky,
As round and round we run;
And the truth shall ever come uppermost,
And justice shall be done.

- Charles Mackay, "Eternal Justice"
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