Assault on the Capitol (DC)

[DrIrvingFinegarten]

It’s still an armed mob.

It doesn’t matter how many or how few.

What they did was attack police protecting the capitol.

They were a mob

They were armed

They not only had those weapons but they used them on the police.

If you need an analog… the getaway driver for a hit man..
Or at a lynching where only one person ties the rope but everyone else is they to have it happen.

Poor scorn on the apologists!

I once bullied someone who said he was there when I asked him what the objective of the mob was and he said “It was a riot. There was no objective.”

Wrong answer.

Anything other than they were trying to overturn an election is not an acceptable answer. So I kept bullying him.

If they knew their actions wouldn’t change anything, why would they have done it?

They just wanted to be heard?

They already had their chance on Election Day and in 60-plus court cases.

[Ben-Prime]

They just wanted to be heard?

They already had their chance on Election Day and in 60-plus court cases.

Unfortunately, indeed, they 'wanted to be heard' like a screaming toddler -- i.e., telling them 'no' is not really hearing them, only telling them 'yes' is acceptable.

[Dave from down under]

It’s not bullying…

It is accountability.

Hold their feet to the fire of truth and perhaps next time they will not try to overthrow the Republic and replace it with a dictatorship.

[Dr. Ken]

[Rolodex]

We're sorry they can't give him more - maybe it's a sentencing guidelines thing. From the thread I read, he's not the lease remorseful or understanding of why what he did was wrong.

[Frater I*I]

We're sorry they can't give him more - maybe it's a sentencing guidelines thing. From the thread I read, he's not the lease remorseful or understanding of why what he did was wrong.

Well take solace in this....now he'll never get to legally possess a penial implant...err firearm ever again, that'll will hurt him until the end of his days...

[Rolodex]

We're sorry they can't give him more - maybe it's a sentencing guidelines thing. From the thread I read, he's not the lease remorseful or understanding of why what he did was wrong.

Well take solace in this....now he'll never get to legally possess a penial implant...err firearm ever again, that'll will hurt him until the end of his days...

I didn't know that. Is that a federal/felony thing? Does it depend on the crime? OTOH I don't think this guy is too constrained by the actual law so I wouldn't trust that he doesn't rebuild his arsenal (which I'm sure he had) after he gets out. But that could net him some more stays courtesy of the government.

[Frater I*I]

I didn't know that. Is that a federal/felony thing? Does it depend on the crime? OTOH I don't think this guy is too constrained by the actual law so I wouldn't trust that he doesn't rebuild his arsenal (which I'm sure he had) after he gets out. But that could net him some more stays courtesy of the government.

It's against federal and state law for a felon to possess a firearm, in the federal system you'll get a minimum of 3 years if you plea out, a minimum of 7 years of you call the jury, and up to 10 years if they qualify for the full bonus by being a repeat offender...

[pipistrelle]

We're sorry they can't give him more - maybe it's a sentencing guidelines thing. From the thread I read, he's not the lease remorseful or understanding of why what he did was wrong.

I haven't seen one yet who is. I followed one guy who got a minimal sentence but lost his high-paying position and doesn't seem able to get another. He has a nutter blog instead. It's beyond me how it happens, even after reading the QAnon book.

[Rolodex]

That may be a better outcome than a long sentence. Natural consequence of his actions.

[northland10]

That may be a better outcome than a long sentence.

The Apostle Paul liked long sentences. Well, at least long run-on sentences.

[DrIrvingFinegarten]

It’s not bullying…

It is accountability.

Hold their feet to the fire of truth and perhaps next time they will not try to overthrow the Republic and replace it with a dictatorship.

A few months ago, I was going back and forth with Brandon Straka, the Walk Away guy. He’s taken a page out of the Dinesh D’Souza/Michael Flynn playbook, plead guilty and cry about how he was really innocent or railroaded or coerced into pleading guilty.

I asked if he was lying when he signed the plea agreement. He kept asking me what he pleaded guilty to.

I don’t know. I don’t care and it doesn’t really matter. All that matters is that he signed an agreement admitting guilt. If you’re innocent, you plead not guilty and you fight it. Nobody gets coerced into pleading guilty to something if they’re not guilty of anything.

I know it’s probably unconstitutional, but if someone pleads guilty and goes on social media to cry about how they were really innocent, they obviously haven’t accepted responsibility for their actions and they should have to go back to prison until they do.

[sugar magnolia]

It’s not bullying…

It is accountability.

Hold their feet to the fire of truth and perhaps next time they will not try to overthrow the Republic and replace it with a dictatorship.

A few months ago, I was going back and forth with Brandon Straka, the Walk Away guy. He’s taken a page out of the Dinesh D’Souza/Michael Flynn playbook, plead guilty and cry about how he was really innocent or railroaded or coerced into pleading guilty.

I asked if he was lying when he signed the plea agreement. He kept asking me what he pleaded guilty to.

I don’t know. I don’t care and it doesn’t really matter. All that matters is that he signed an agreement admitting guilt. If you’re innocent, you plead not guilty and you fight it. Nobody gets coerced into pleading guilty to something if they’re not guilty of anything.

I know it’s probably unconstitutional, but if someone pleads guilty and goes on social media to cry about how they were really innocent, they obviously haven’t accepted responsibility for their actions and they should have to go back to prison until they do.

People do that all the time with plea bargains. Time served, no fine, and you go home today, or spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer and have a 50/50 chance of spending a couple of years in jail.

[pipistrelle]

I know it’s probably unconstitutional, but if someone pleads guilty and goes on social media to cry about how they were really innocent, they obviously haven’t accepted responsibility for their actions and they should have to go back to prison until they do.

People do that all the time with plea bargains. Time served, no fine, and you go home today, or spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer and have a 50/50 chance of spending a couple of years in jail.

Especially poor people, I suspect, guilty or not.

[DrIrvingFinegarten]

It’s not bullying…

It is accountability.

Hold their feet to the fire of truth and perhaps next time they will not try to overthrow the Republic and replace it with a dictatorship.

A few months ago, I was going back and forth with Brandon Straka, the Walk Away guy. He’s taken a page out of the Dinesh D’Souza/Michael Flynn playbook, plead guilty and cry about how he was really innocent or railroaded or coerced into pleading guilty.

I asked if he was lying when he signed the plea agreement. He kept asking me what he pleaded guilty to.

I don’t know. I don’t care and it doesn’t really matter. All that matters is that he signed an agreement admitting guilt. If you’re innocent, you plead not guilty and you fight it. Nobody gets coerced into pleading guilty to something if they’re not guilty of anything.

I know it’s probably unconstitutional, but if someone pleads guilty and goes on social media to cry about how they were really innocent, they obviously haven’t accepted responsibility for their actions and they should have to go back to prison until they do.

People do that all the time with plea bargains. Time served, no fine, and you go home today, or spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer and have a 50/50 chance of spending a couple of years in jail.

DeSouza, Flynn and Straka could have afforded or raised money for the best defense possible.

There was no coercion in any of their cases.

[sugar magnolia]

A few months ago, I was going back and forth with Brandon Straka, the Walk Away guy. He’s taken a page out of the Dinesh D’Souza/Michael Flynn playbook, plead guilty and cry about how he was really innocent or railroaded or coerced into pleading guilty.

I asked if he was lying when he signed the plea agreement. He kept asking me what he pleaded guilty to.

I don’t know. I don’t care and it doesn’t really matter. All that matters is that he signed an agreement admitting guilt. If you’re innocent, you plead not guilty and you fight it. Nobody gets coerced into pleading guilty to something if they’re not guilty of anything.

I know it’s probably unconstitutional, but if someone pleads guilty and goes on social media to cry about how they were really innocent, they obviously haven’t accepted responsibility for their actions and they should have to go back to prison until they do.

People do that all the time with plea bargains. Time served, no fine, and you go home today, or spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer and have a 50/50 chance of spending a couple of years in jail.

DeSouza, Flynn and Straka could have afforded or raised money for the best defense possible.

There was no coercion in any of their cases.

But that's not what you said. You made a straightforward claim that is patently untrue. There are many reasons why someone would plead guilty to get a shorter sentence than simply money.

[northland10]

I think I used this example previously.

If you are a defendant with a good enough relationship with Trump that a pardon is very likely, you might decide to let it go to trial even if you only have a 50/50 shot for acquittal if it looks good that Trump is going to win. You might get a whole bunch of charges with much more prison time but if your pardon is assured, you can just use it as a "I'm being oppressed" moment until Trump frees you. If, all of the sudden, Trump's chances are not looking good, it may be time to go for a deal so at least you can cut down on possibly prison time or maybe even get probation.

It is risk management.

For many others, bullying from prosecutors may cause some defendants who are truly innocent to go for a plea. There are many ways for folks to be bullied into pleading guilty to something they did not do, and some prosecutors are more interested in convictions than justice so they will push for the plea. We have an ugly history.

[DrIrvingFinegarten]

I think I used this example previously.

If you are a defendant with a good enough relationship with Trump that a pardon is very likely, you might decide to let it go to trial even if you only have a 50/50 shot for acquittal if it looks good that Trump is going to win. You might get a whole bunch of charges with much more prison time but if your pardon is assured, you can just use it as a "I'm being oppressed" moment until Trump frees you. If, all of the sudden, Trump's chances are not looking good, it may be time to go for a deal so at least you can cut down on possibly prison time or maybe even get probation.

It is risk management.

For many others, bullying from prosecutors may cause some defendants who are truly innocent to go for a plea. There are many ways for folks to be bullied into pleading guilty to something they did not do, and some prosecutors are more interested in convictions than justice so they will push for the plea. We have an ugly history.

I don’t think there are any truly innocent J6 terrorists, however.
I also think there’s no such thing as a nonviolent J6 protester. One way or another every last one of them had something to do with all the injuries and fatalities.

[sugar magnolia]

I think I used this example previously.

If you are a defendant with a good enough relationship with Trump that a pardon is very likely, you might decide to let it go to trial even if you only have a 50/50 shot for acquittal if it looks good that Trump is going to win. You might get a whole bunch of charges with much more prison time but if your pardon is assured, you can just use it as a "I'm being oppressed" moment until Trump frees you. If, all of the sudden, Trump's chances are not looking good, it may be time to go for a deal so at least you can cut down on possibly prison time or maybe even get probation.

It is risk management.

For many others, bullying from prosecutors may cause some defendants who are truly innocent to go for a plea. There are many ways for folks to be bullied into pleading guilty to something they did not do, and some prosecutors are more interested in convictions than justice so they will push for the plea. We have an ugly history.

I don’t think there are any truly innocent J6 terrorists, however.
I also think there’s no such thing as a nonviolent J6 protester. One way or another every last one of them had something to do with all the injuries and fatalities.

If this is how you construct arguments with others, I'm not at all surprised you show up here for nothing but to have people supply points for you to use.

[northland10]

I was only using it as an example and not questioning the guilt or innocence.

However, I would quibble with the claim that there were no non-violent protesters. IIRC, there were those who were there to protest and did not enter the building and did not attack others. Being there outside protesting, even yelling is not and can never be a crime. There is freedom of speech and assembly in our country. Proximity to violent actors does not make a person a violent protester.

[DrIrvingFinegarten]

I think I used this example previously.

If you are a defendant with a good enough relationship with Trump that a pardon is very likely, you might decide to let it go to trial even if you only have a 50/50 shot for acquittal if it looks good that Trump is going to win. You might get a whole bunch of charges with much more prison time but if your pardon is assured, you can just use it as a "I'm being oppressed" moment until Trump frees you. If, all of the sudden, Trump's chances are not looking good, it may be time to go for a deal so at least you can cut down on possibly prison time or maybe even get probation.

It is risk management.

For many others, bullying from prosecutors may cause some defendants who are truly innocent to go for a plea. There are many ways for folks to be bullied into pleading guilty to something they did not do, and some prosecutors are more interested in convictions than justice so they will push for the plea. We have an ugly history.

I don’t think there are any truly innocent J6 terrorists, however.
I also think there’s no such thing as a nonviolent J6 protester. One way or another every last one of them had something to do with all the injuries and fatalities.

If this is how you construct arguments with others, I'm not at all surprised you show up here for nothing but to have people supply points for you to use.

Do you think there has been some overreach in prosecuting some of these people?

[Dave from down under]

Far too little reach!

They should all have been rounded up and held in Gitmo till their trial for insurrection IMO.

They participated in an attempted coup to replace the republic with a dictator.

They were a fundamental threat to the existence of the United States of America being a representative democracy.

For the lowest foot soldier to their dear leader there can be no “over reach”.

If you are talking to an “originalist patriot”…
If an armed mob attacked the capitol after the first US president was elected to put King George back in control of the American states… how would those insurrectionist have been dealt with???

[Maybenaut]

Far too little reach!

They should all have been rounded up and held in Gitmo till their trial for insurrection IMO.

They participated in an attempted coup to replace the republic with a dictator.

They were a fundamental threat to the existence of the United States of America being a representative democracy.

For the lowest foot soldier to their dear leader there can be no “over reach”.

If you are talking to an “originalist patriot”…
If an armed mob attacked the capitol after the first US president was elected to put King George back in control of the American states… how would those insurrectionist have been dealt with???

For that matter, how would Washington, Jefferson, Adams, et al., been dealt with had the Revolutionary War not succeeded? They knew going in what would have happened to them.

[Dave from down under]

Or the response to the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion

[Dr. Ken]