Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
How long will the Jury take?
Is it better for the jury to take a long time?
Is it better for the jury to take a long time?
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Better for whom? As a champion of due process, I would hope that the jury takes as much time as it needs to sift through the evidence before rendering its decision.
Both the government and the defense are entitled to a fair trial, so these cases with uber-short deliberations, whether they result in acquittal or conviction, suggest to me that the jury didn’t really spend much time talking about the evidence.
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
- fierceredpanda
- Posts: 590
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:11 pm
- Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left at the portrait of George III
- Occupation: Criminal defense attorney. I am not your lawyer. My posts != legal advice.
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
This is something defense attorneys argue about endlessly, whether short versus long deliberations favor one side or the other. My opinion from some experience? The length of time means nothing. Juries take the time they need to reach a verdict. As they absolutely should.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple. The smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton
- LM K
- Posts: 3144
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:44 pm
- Location: Oregon
- Occupation: Professor Shrinky Lady, brainwashing young adults daily!
- Contact:
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
I think deliberations will take several days. I don't think the jury will deliberate long on the manslaughter charge. But it's going to take time for the jury to deliberate the 2nd and 3rd degree murder charges.
I am looking forward to listening to closing arguments. I might even get up early to watch them live. (I'm on the west coast.)
I am looking forward to listening to closing arguments. I might even get up early to watch them live. (I'm on the west coast.)
"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
From "Take the Money and Run"
From "Take the Money and Run"
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
I have to record it
Monday and Thursdays are my long days no plan period days.
I hate block schedule for middle school
Monday and Thursdays are my long days no plan period days.
I hate block schedule for middle school
- sterngard friegen
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:51 am
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
I picked Monday. This jury will NOT want to be sequestered.
That means a unanimous verdict. The judge will not discharge the jury as hung after only one day. So I expect a verdict. And of course I expect a guilty verdict on second degree murder.
But if the jury doesn't come back Monday I'm expecting it to be discharged Wednesday hung 10-2 for conviction on third degree but nothing else.
That means a unanimous verdict. The judge will not discharge the jury as hung after only one day. So I expect a verdict. And of course I expect a guilty verdict on second degree murder.
But if the jury doesn't come back Monday I'm expecting it to be discharged Wednesday hung 10-2 for conviction on third degree but nothing else.
Neither disbarred nor disciplined after representing President Barack Obama.
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Tuesday. Monday is final argument and jury instructions. Deliberations will therefore start really late Monday afternoon. I, too, fear a hung jury but keeping my fingers crossed for a conviction on any felony charged. Not picky at this point in American history. Just a little bit of justice would be nice.
- LM K
- Posts: 3144
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:44 pm
- Location: Oregon
- Occupation: Professor Shrinky Lady, brainwashing young adults daily!
- Contact:
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Could you tell us more about your thoughts on 2nd degree murder? Why do you think manslaughter is unlikely?sterngard friegen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:53 pm I picked Monday. This jury will NOT want to be sequestered.
That means a unanimous verdict. The judge will not discharge the jury as hung after only one day. So I expect a verdict. And of course I expect a guilty verdict on second degree murder.
But if the jury doesn't come back Monday I'm expecting it to be discharged Wednesday hung 10-2 for conviction on third degree but nothing else.
"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
From "Take the Money and Run"
From "Take the Money and Run"
- sugar magnolia
- Posts: 3890
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:54 pm
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
I don't think they would mind being sequestered for a few days, based on replies from a couple of them at voir dire that they would like to be seated because of the importance of this trial. One even said it was "exciting" to be called as a juror. I don't expect a verdict until at least Thursday. There's a lot of video and medical evidence for them to argue over.
- fierceredpanda
- Posts: 590
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:11 pm
- Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left at the portrait of George III
- Occupation: Criminal defense attorney. I am not your lawyer. My posts != legal advice.
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
I'm not Sterngard, but I think the State did more than enough to carry its burden on either the 2nd- or 3rd-degree murder charges. The manslaughter charge merely requires that Chauvin acted in a way that was criminally negligent and reckless. The 2nd-degree murder charge is essentially what other states call "felony murder," and requires that the State prove that Chauvin caused Floyd's death while committing a felony, i.e. unlawfully assaulting him. The 3rd-degree murder charge is what other jurisdictions might call 2nd-degree "depraved heart" murder, and requires that Chauvin perpetrated an act that was imminently dangerous to life and did so with conscious disregard to human life, leading to George Floyd's death.
My opinion is that the length of time (9 minutes and 29 seconds) involved, especially the several minutes after George Floyd is very obviously unconscious, make this a case of murder rather than manslaughter. The difference between the 2nd- and 3rd-degree murder charges is simply going to be whether the jury thinks Chauvin's use of the knee-on-neck technique was ever justified. If it was, than Chauvin's actions better fit the "depraved heart" standard of conscious disregard for human life. If it wasn't justified, than he was unlawfully assaulting Floyd from the outset, and Chauvin will be convicted of the 2nd-degree murder charge. If I'm a juror, I could possibly be persuaded either way on that point.
As a criminal defense attorney, one of the things we talk about a lot at conferences and such is the need for the defense to present a case with a theme. The reason for this is because the prosecution always has a theme and a narrative. Yes, the defense can simply argue to the burden of proof and try to poke holes in the State's case, but good defense attorneys want to do better than that. In my opinion, Chauvin's defense was too scattershot and unfocused. If it came off to laypersons like his lawyer was throwing junk at the wall hoping something would stick, that's because this professional thinks so too. Honestly, the only way Chauvin gets convicted of the manslaughter charge is if the jury buys what his lawyer was selling about heart conditions, drug overdoses, carbon monoxide, etc. I don't think the defense case on those points was convincing, and I don't think a truly impartial (e.g., not racist) juror would find them convincing either.
My opinion is that the length of time (9 minutes and 29 seconds) involved, especially the several minutes after George Floyd is very obviously unconscious, make this a case of murder rather than manslaughter. The difference between the 2nd- and 3rd-degree murder charges is simply going to be whether the jury thinks Chauvin's use of the knee-on-neck technique was ever justified. If it was, than Chauvin's actions better fit the "depraved heart" standard of conscious disregard for human life. If it wasn't justified, than he was unlawfully assaulting Floyd from the outset, and Chauvin will be convicted of the 2nd-degree murder charge. If I'm a juror, I could possibly be persuaded either way on that point.
As a criminal defense attorney, one of the things we talk about a lot at conferences and such is the need for the defense to present a case with a theme. The reason for this is because the prosecution always has a theme and a narrative. Yes, the defense can simply argue to the burden of proof and try to poke holes in the State's case, but good defense attorneys want to do better than that. In my opinion, Chauvin's defense was too scattershot and unfocused. If it came off to laypersons like his lawyer was throwing junk at the wall hoping something would stick, that's because this professional thinks so too. Honestly, the only way Chauvin gets convicted of the manslaughter charge is if the jury buys what his lawyer was selling about heart conditions, drug overdoses, carbon monoxide, etc. I don't think the defense case on those points was convincing, and I don't think a truly impartial (e.g., not racist) juror would find them convincing either.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple. The smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton
- sterngard friegen
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:51 am
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
The additional two minutes of torture after Floyd was dead are convincing to me. Chauvin wanted to make sure he was dead and thought he could act with impunity even with smart phones videoing everything. If that's not malice I don't know what is. I would have voted for murder one.LM K wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:16 amCould you tell us more about your thoughts on 2nd degree murder? Why do you think manslaughter is unlikely?sterngard friegen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:53 pm I picked Monday. This jury will NOT want to be sequestered.
That means a unanimous verdict. The judge will not discharge the jury as hung after only one day. So I expect a verdict. And of course I expect a guilty verdict on second degree murder.
But if the jury doesn't come back Monday I'm expecting it to be discharged Wednesday hung 10-2 for conviction on third degree but nothing else.
Neither disbarred nor disciplined after representing President Barack Obama.
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Me too. I can’t see how leaving Floyd with no choice but to die isn’t first degree murder.sterngard friegen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:42 amThe additional two minutes of torture after Floyd was dead are convincing to me. Chauvin wanted to make sure he was dead and thought he could act with impunity even with smart phones videoing everything. If that's not malice I don't know what is. I would have voted for murder one.LM K wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:16 amCould you tell us more about your thoughts on 2nd degree murder? Why do you think manslaughter is unlikely?sterngard friegen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:53 pm I picked Monday. This jury will NOT want to be sequestered.
That means a unanimous verdict. The judge will not discharge the jury as hung after only one day. So I expect a verdict. And of course I expect a guilty verdict on second degree murder.
But if the jury doesn't come back Monday I'm expecting it to be discharged Wednesday hung 10-2 for conviction on third degree but nothing else.
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
- Tiredretiredlawyer
- Posts: 8124
- Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:07 pm
- Location: Rescue Pets Land
- Occupation: 21st Century Suffragist
- Verified: ✅🐴🐎🦄🌻5000 posts and counting
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
"I'm with you fellers."* Second degree murder. Wish it were first degree.
*Delmar to Pete and Everett in O, Brother, Where Art Thou?.
*Delmar to Pete and Everett in O, Brother, Where Art Thou?.
"Mickey Mouse and I grew up together." - Ruthie Tompson, Disney animation checker and scene planner and one of the first women to become a member of the International Photographers Union in 1952.
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
I understand full well why the prosecutors couldn't charge him with first degree murder, mainly because they are going to have to convince twelve jurors of that and I don't see that happening in today's America. But I would have had no problem finding him guilty of murder one.sterngard friegen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:42 amThe additional two minutes of torture after Floyd was dead are convincing to me. Chauvin wanted to make sure he was dead and thought he could act with impunity even with smart phones videoing everything. If that's not malice I don't know what is. I would have voted for murder one.LM K wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:16 amCould you tell us more about your thoughts on 2nd degree murder? Why do you think manslaughter is unlikely?sterngard friegen wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:53 pm I picked Monday. This jury will NOT want to be sequestered.
That means a unanimous verdict. The judge will not discharge the jury as hung after only one day. So I expect a verdict. And of course I expect a guilty verdict on second degree murder.
But if the jury doesn't come back Monday I'm expecting it to be discharged Wednesday hung 10-2 for conviction on third degree but nothing else.
"It actually doesn't take much to be considered a difficult woman. That's why there are so many of us."
--Jane Goodall
--Jane Goodall
- SuzieC
- Posts: 1046
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:25 am
- Location: Blue oasis in red state
- Occupation: retired lawyer; yoga enthusiast
- Verified: ✅
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
I certainly hope you all are right because if Chauvin is acquitted, I think we will see eruptions of protest, the likes of which we haven't yet seen. And rightfully so.
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
I am actually terrified of what they jury might do. I'm not as sure as others seem to be about what they jury will find. I agree with FRP that if the jury evaluates the evidence honestly and without bias, they should have no problem finding Chauvin guilty. In my opinion, the prosecution proved the highest charges.
Do I think all twelve jurors have an intent to evaluate the evidence honestly and without bias? I have lost all faith that ever happens in a high profile case. If this case had never made the news and wasn't being talked about incessantly I would have far more faith in the jury.
"It actually doesn't take much to be considered a difficult woman. That's why there are so many of us."
--Jane Goodall
--Jane Goodall
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
I don't think the defense was even trying for an acquittal, they are aiming for a hung jury...then time goes by, new outrage occurs someplace else...and he gets a slap on the wrist, his pension and retirement in Florida. Of course, that doesn't take into consideration his minor tax problems.
- noblepa
- Posts: 2616
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:55 pm
- Location: Bay Village, Ohio
- Occupation: Retired IT Nerd
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
IANAL, but it is my understanding that first degree murder requires that the defendant went into the situation with the intent of killing the victim; that the defendant planned the murder beforehand.
While I agree that Chauvin is guilty as hell, I'm not convinced it should be murder one.
Chauvin may very well have made the decision, after the encounter began, that he was going to "kill the SOB", but I seriously doubt that he got up that morning, thinking "I'm going to kill George Floyd today". It is my understanding that this is what the prosecution would have had to prove, with that level of specificity, in order to convict him of murder one.
While I agree that Chauvin is guilty as hell, I'm not convinced it should be murder one.
Chauvin may very well have made the decision, after the encounter began, that he was going to "kill the SOB", but I seriously doubt that he got up that morning, thinking "I'm going to kill George Floyd today". It is my understanding that this is what the prosecution would have had to prove, with that level of specificity, in order to convict him of murder one.
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
I've learned not to predict jury deliberations.
I am disappointed that the State is now using Mr. Schleicher to give closing arguments. Zzzzzz. Boring, no passion. Hopefully Mr. Blackwell will split the time with him because this is so dull.
I am disappointed that the State is now using Mr. Schleicher to give closing arguments. Zzzzzz. Boring, no passion. Hopefully Mr. Blackwell will split the time with him because this is so dull.
- sterngard friegen
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:51 am
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Schleicher is, so far, doing a shitty job. He's a minimally competent lawyer and he's demonstrating that to the jury. He apparently thinks repetition of a point over and over is "argument."
Neither disbarred nor disciplined after representing President Barack Obama.
- sterngard friegen
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:51 am
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
That's incorrect. Intent to murder doesn't have to be formed "that morning" or "before the encounter." It only has to be formed before the murder. I'd say the 9 minutes and 29 seconds demonstrates that intent, the "malice aforethought."noblepa wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:39 am IANAL, but it is my understanding that first degree murder requires that the defendant went into the situation with the intent of killing the victim; that the defendant planned the murder beforehand.
While I agree that Chauvin is guilty as hell, I'm not convinced it should be murder one.
Chauvin may very well have made the decision, after the encounter began, that he was going to "kill the SOB", but I seriously doubt that he got up that morning, thinking "I'm going to kill George Floyd today". It is my understanding that this is what the prosecution would have had to prove, with that level of specificity, in order to convict him of murder one.
Neither disbarred nor disciplined after representing President Barack Obama.
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Oh, wow. LOL. The prosecutor FINALLY just now said it. Finally said what I came back to post here. The fact that Floyd very clearly told the officers exactly what he needed in order to be able to get into the back of that squad car. Instead of listening to him and doing what he needed, they escalated the situation and then pushed him to the ground for his almost 10 minutes of torture and death.
So. Floyd gave the officers a road map for exactly what he needed. I know he said several times "Can we count me in"? All he wanted and needed was for the situation to calm down, count to some number to allow him to calm himself down and he could have gotten in. He even suggests "Let me count to three and I'll go in".
On the point of first degree murder - you don't have to have formulated your plan 12, 24, 18, 9, or 19 hours in advance. You can decide in a moment. Chauvin heard the man say he can't breathe and within minutes put him into a position that he had been trained could cause asphyxia. Even after he was told there was no pulse, he did not get up, he continued to press on Floyd. Those were conscious decisions made by this defendant, after we know he has gone through the training regarding the dangers of the prone position and why you need to immediately move the suspect into the recovery position as soon as the suspect is complying. The problem is he was already complying. He thanked the officers for taking him out and putting him on his knees. Then, they did, for a short time put him on his side. There was never a reason for putting him prone. Ever. He was compliant prior to them doing that. Even the single "kick" Floyd did didn't happen until they were pushing him over to prone. I'm not even convinced it was a deliberate kick, but a reaction to be pushed over. We usually use our hands to balance ourselves in that kind of situation. His hands were cuffed. I don't think you use your body exactly the same way under those conditions.
So. Floyd gave the officers a road map for exactly what he needed. I know he said several times "Can we count me in"? All he wanted and needed was for the situation to calm down, count to some number to allow him to calm himself down and he could have gotten in. He even suggests "Let me count to three and I'll go in".
On the point of first degree murder - you don't have to have formulated your plan 12, 24, 18, 9, or 19 hours in advance. You can decide in a moment. Chauvin heard the man say he can't breathe and within minutes put him into a position that he had been trained could cause asphyxia. Even after he was told there was no pulse, he did not get up, he continued to press on Floyd. Those were conscious decisions made by this defendant, after we know he has gone through the training regarding the dangers of the prone position and why you need to immediately move the suspect into the recovery position as soon as the suspect is complying. The problem is he was already complying. He thanked the officers for taking him out and putting him on his knees. Then, they did, for a short time put him on his side. There was never a reason for putting him prone. Ever. He was compliant prior to them doing that. Even the single "kick" Floyd did didn't happen until they were pushing him over to prone. I'm not even convinced it was a deliberate kick, but a reaction to be pushed over. We usually use our hands to balance ourselves in that kind of situation. His hands were cuffed. I don't think you use your body exactly the same way under those conditions.
"It actually doesn't take much to be considered a difficult woman. That's why there are so many of us."
--Jane Goodall
--Jane Goodall
- fierceredpanda
- Posts: 590
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:11 pm
- Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left at the portrait of George III
- Occupation: Criminal defense attorney. I am not your lawyer. My posts != legal advice.
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Sterngard also makes the point, but this is a very common misconception of what "malice aforethought" or "intent to kill" means. In fact, intent to kill can be formed in an instant, and Stern is very correct that 9 minutes and 29 seconds of action could be a sufficient demonstration of that intent. However, I think the State chose not to bring that charge because it is far easier to show beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin either unlawfully assaulted Floyd and thus caused his death (2nd-degree murder) or acted with blatant disregard for human life (3rd-degree murder).noblepa wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:39 am IANAL, but it is my understanding that first degree murder requires that the defendant went into the situation with the intent of killing the victim; that the defendant planned the murder beforehand.
While I agree that Chauvin is guilty as hell, I'm not convinced it should be murder one.
Chauvin may very well have made the decision, after the encounter began, that he was going to "kill the SOB", but I seriously doubt that he got up that morning, thinking "I'm going to kill George Floyd today". It is my understanding that this is what the prosecution would have had to prove, with that level of specificity, in order to convict him of murder one.
Honestly, until the trial I thought the prosecutors absolutely did the right thing by not charging 1st-degree murder. Now, at the close of the case, I think they definitely could have. Whether they should have is, perhaps, a policy question as much as it is a legal one. But I agree with Stern and Maybenaut that this is as cold-blooded and intentional killing as I have ever seen. If anything, Chauvin's actions are more indicative of deadly intent than someone who shoots another person. Aiming and pulling a trigger is the action of but a short period of time. Chauvin spent nearly 10 minutes crushing the life out of another human being. The prosecutor has mentioned that in his (excellent thus far) closing. And we will hear more about it at sentencing if (and, I think, when) Chauvin is convicted.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple. The smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
He's not doing a very good job. All I can think is they are going to bring in Blackwell for the rebuttal and drive it home. He will be the last attorney we hear from. At least I sure as heck hope so.sterngard friegen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:06 amSchleicher is, so far, doing a shitty job. He's a minimally competent lawyer and he's demonstrating that to the jury. He apparently thinks repetition of a point over and over is "argument."
"It actually doesn't take much to be considered a difficult woman. That's why there are so many of us."
--Jane Goodall
--Jane Goodall
- fierceredpanda
- Posts: 590
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:11 pm
- Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left at the portrait of George III
- Occupation: Criminal defense attorney. I am not your lawyer. My posts != legal advice.
Re: Chauvin Jury deliberation poll
Respectfully, I disagree. Methodical prosecutors are successful prosecutors. Repetition works with juries in criminal cases. I agree that Blackwell is better, and I suspect he will deliver the State's rebuttal argument. But Schleicher is taking emotion out of the case and asking the jury to use their common sense and look at the evidence. I have no problem at all with his presentation.sterngard friegen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:06 amSchleicher is, so far, doing a shitty job. He's a minimally competent lawyer and he's demonstrating that to the jury. He apparently thinks repetition of a point over and over is "argument."
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple. The smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton