New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

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Plutodog
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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#151

Post by Plutodog »

What Slart said :-bd :-bd :-bd Further, this forum covers much more than eligibility, and includes more than just lefties. And the folks in this forum in many, many cases also reach out to other forums of a different political bent to argue politics, etc. Why, JMW, would you not want to participate here other than to promote your book? Why? ;;)
The only good Bundy is an Al Bundy.

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Sterngard Friegen
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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#152

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

Slarti's brilliant post and 'Dog's question support my "dismissive" observation. I just use a lot less words. 'Cuz I am not getting paid, so no 'splainin'.

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Slarti the White
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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#153

Post by Slarti the White »

Slarti's brilliant post and 'Dog's question support my "dismissive" observation. I just use a lot less words. 'Cuz I am not getting paid, so no 'splainin'.If only I were paid by the footnote* :(( * then I would use a lot more of them** :-bd **not that I'm exactly a model of restraint as is... :-k
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June bug
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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#154

Post by June bug »

Actually, going through June bug's post and trying to write a response, it seems to me that she mostly just doesn't like me because I'm a conservative. There doesn't seem to be any useful response I can make to that, so I'll just leave things as is. jmw - I think the biggest problem is what we saw as a very dismissive attitude."'Nuff said.

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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#155

Post by neonzx »

I also had an interview with Reality Check, and we had one caller call in who asked me why people were demanding that Obama release his birth certificate, and I told him why I thought that was. The answer wasn't good enough. He kept pressing me for a different answer. Sorry, but I gave you my honest opinion already. That's the only answer I have. If you want a different answer, you'll have to ask someone else. The answer he really seemed to be fishing for was,"Obama's being asked for his papers because he's black, and all the people demanding Obama's papers are just a bunch of racist Tea Partiers." Sorry, but I know conservatives very well. A lot of people I knew had questions about Obama's birth certificate. And while I'm sure there may be a few racists on the birther bandwagon, I happen to think that "you're all racists" theory is not that much more in touch with reality than a lot of the birther stuff.Well, I could tell that the person who asked the question (and who kept wanting an answer that he wasn't going to get) basically had to hold himself back from attacking with both barrels. So while I had some very good and even enjoyable conversation with others, such as the person who commented it was good to talk to a reality-based conservative (and I don't want to lose sight of the many more good conversations), I couldn't say the reception was universally positive. ;;) No, I wasn't looking for an answer of: "Obama's being asked for his papers because he's black, and all the people demanding Obama's papers are just a bunch of racist Tea Partiers."The answer I was looking for is "fear". Fear having nothing to do with birth eligibility.The birthers all seem to have their reasons for fearing Obama -- and, yes, the fear for some was because Obama is "black". For others, he's not Christian enough. Or he doesn't bow-down to Israel enough. Or he's a socialist, communist, Muslim, Illuminati usurper who is building FEMA camps to imprison citizens. Or whatever other irrational fears they have with our multi-cultured (exotic) President.The birth certificate conspiracy was an idea all those who fear Obama could get behind as the best post-election solution to removing the man they fear; reason, law and logic be damned. It's the reason the birther issue didn't go mainstream and birther cases didn't start being spewed all over the country until Obama was already elected-- after the worst fears of those now in the birther movement were realized: a President Obama.So, the answer was fear. Racism, bigotry, paranoia, or whatever. Fear manifests itself as hate, and I see nothing but absolute hatred of President Obama within the birther community.
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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#156

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

Many semi-literate whites, who have been ginned up to fear anyone who isn't a white, Christian Dominionist who fights immigrants, gays and atheists, are also afraid of a Democrat. That, I suspect, is jmw's primary objection, too. Most of the people Wall Street and Madison Avenue have brainwashed into voting against their economic and social interests are afraid of "big government" only when it is of the Democratic brand. They blithely ignore the intrusive "big government" of the Republican brand, which seeks to control womens' uteruses, shoves the Christian religion into everyone's face and seeks to disenfranchise, belittle and demean gays, minorities and the poor. And, oh yeah, those Republicans are so patriotic that they would prefer to crash the economy and ruin lives so that President Obama will fail and they can be given the opportunity to put another Bush in the Oval Office.How Christian and tolerant of all of them./rant http://boards.buffalobills.com/images/smilies/pod.gif

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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#157

Post by jmw »

Actually, going through June bug's post and trying to write a response, it seems to me that she mostly just doesn't like me because I'm a conservative. There doesn't seem to be any useful response I can make to that, so I'll just leave things as is.


jmw - I think the biggest problem is what we saw as a very dismissive attitude."'Nuff said.June bug, the reason I didn't respond to your negative and judgmental post, quite frankly, was not that I was being dismissive -- I was being polite.





I had thought that I might try and dialogue with you folks here, but I don't particularly see that I'm really that welcome, or that my efforts on behalf of the truth are that appreciated by folks at this forum. That being the case, I'll take my ideas and input elsewhere.

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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#158

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

I had thought that I might try and dialogue with you folks here, but I don't particularly see that I'm really that welcome, or that my efforts on behalf of the truth are that appreciated by folks at this forum. That being the case, I'll take my ideas and input elsewhere.This has a name earlier in the alphabet than "dismissive." If all you've got after your analysis in a very specialized area is name calling and fear mongering I can see why you have no interest in defending that. Have fun with your anti-intellectual birfer buddies.

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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#159

Post by Reality Check »

I suppose we didn't suck up enough and praise John's intellect adequately? I am disappointed.
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Heather Heyer, November 2016

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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#160

Post by Slarti the White »

John,So someone called you "dismissive" and someone was judgmental and others tried to engage you in debate and your response is to say that you don't seem welcome and that your "efforts on behalf of the truth" aren't appreciated. How disappointing. If you have a problem with anything I said, I'm more than willing to discuss it, but if you aren't confident enough regarding your conservative principles and arguments to even try and debate in good faith then I feel sorry for you.
"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#161

Post by jmw »

RC, I'm surprised at you. I wasn't concerned about anything other than being treated as one would normally treat another human being. As far as name-calling goes, I'm not the one who's called anybody names.I don't need some place to go just to be called names and given a hard time. Believe me, I have plenty of other things to do with my time.And Slartibartfast, you're not the problem. I've enjoyed discussing with you and would be happy to do so at any time. And the same goes for others like yourself.

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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#162

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

Slarti - I don't feel sorry for him. He owns what he is and what he does. He deserves no apologies from those of us who criticize him, either. Since he is a member here I will stop there. But there is a lot more that could and should be said.He can now go into the RWNJ echo chamber, where he will be derided, even though he is more like them than not, since he shares the same beliefs that these people have about President Obama acting lawlessly and ruining the country.Like Sisyphus, he has consigned himself to debunking the trash that RWNJ ignoramuses peddle as knowledge. I can't think of anything less useful, after it has been done once.

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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#163

Post by Reality Check »

John, this is the Internet. There are lots of people with different opinions and you probably know that people say things through their keyboards they would not say in church, synagogue, or at work. I think what you posted looked whiny and I said so. I have been on quite a few forums and I have never found one that has as many intelligent and interesting people as the Fogbow. Maybe it is the antithesis of the anti-intellectualism of the Birthers that draws this collection of talented people together. Nothing posted here is immune from being criticized and that is one of the things that makes the Fogbow interesting. While most of us are Obama supporters and progressively inclined as would be expected in a group of anti-birthers other views are presented and tolerated. I was just surprised that you let a few critical comments get under your skin so quickly. Your work on debunking has been duly praised and credited here. I think a bit of introspection would be good for all of us.
"“If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention.”

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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#164

Post by neonzx »

I had thought that I might try and dialogue with you folks here, but I don't particularly see that I'm really that welcome, or that my efforts on behalf of the truth are that appreciated by folks at this forum. That being the case, I'll take my ideas and input elsewhere.I hope you don't think I'm chasing you away. Fact is, you should know (or should have known), that there was no "truth" you could offer us at TFB regarding the birth certificate controversy -- we settled the truth here years ago. I offered you the chance to step away from what was really driving the birthers. You recoiled then and, you retreated this evening after I've explained the "truth" to you. {SMILIES_PATH}/pray.gif By the power vested in my gayness by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I wish you safe travels. You're always welcome in these parts.
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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#165

Post by neonzx »

Now jmw, where do you expect to get "universally positive" in this world? The only time I get "universally positive" is when I ask my cats, "Who wants some lunch?" =)) Oh, SO true! I just whipped up a weekly "special" plate for my cats (mixing several cans of wet food with dry). None rejected the feast! 8-) I'm G-O-D on special plate night.
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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#166

Post by A Legal Lohengrin »

I wasn't concerned about anything other than being treated as one would normally treat another human being. As far as name-calling goes, I'm not the one who's called anybody names.What names has anyone called you? The list can start here:[*:3iysgj4j][*:3iysgj4j][*:3iysgj4j]

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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#167

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I wasn't concerned about anything other than being treated as one would normally treat another human being. As far as name-calling goes, I'm not the one who's called anybody names.What names has anyone called you? The list can start here:I saw one:[*:19qg27q4]dismissive[*:19qg27q4][*:19qg27q4]Not sure where it falls on the meanness scale. :-k
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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#168

Post by A Legal Lohengrin »

I wasn't concerned about anything other than being treated as one would normally treat another human being. As far as name-calling goes, I'm not the one who's called anybody names.What names has anyone called you? The list can start here:I saw one:[*:33r0fjf0]dismissive[*:33r0fjf0][*:33r0fjf0]Not sure where it falls on the meanness scale. :-kThat's not a name, it's an adjective. "I think your opinion is dumb" is not the same as "I think you're dumb."One is acceptable and the other is prohibited under the civility rule. I haven't seen anyone "attack" him any more than we routinely "attack" each other without anyone getting bent about it.

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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#169

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JohnI think where you lost some folks is when you said you refused to to refer to President Obama as the President until you undertook your own investigation of the Birther claims. That admission reveals a disrespect for the Constitution that many find objectionable. If you cannot understand that I overestimated you.
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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#170

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

:oops: I screwed up and want to extend an apology to Mr. Woodman. He was not being "dismissive." I confused him with Aafterwit. Mr. Woodman's "sin" was buying into various RWNJ memes concerning President Obama. So, my apologies. I conflated your stances with an attitude I attributed to another member who had written here and contributed to this very thread. (And has his own wesbite -- raisedonhoecakes.com -- which purports to debunk.)My apologies. I was wrong.

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#171

Post by jmw »

Well, that explains why I had no idea at all why I was being accused of being "dismissive."

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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#172

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

Looking back through this thread, I'd say that most folks have probably been more civil than my perception today. So I'm going to give this another shot.





I really didn't come here to find a new place to be criticized, though. So if you'd rather criticize than discuss, I don't know that I'll be taking part.





Most of what I reacted to was charges of being dismissive -- when I honestly really don't have any idea what that was all about -- and then June bug's reply, which I take to be impolite, to what was really a very polite response on my part.





In any event, I'm going to go ahead and respond to June bug's earlier post.





I would note before I do, though, that it doesn't look like I'm the only person who identified that post as being a bit of an attack.





I’ve suddenly been flooded with a whole series of personal attacks by people who don’t like the results of my 3-month investigation.


Welcome to our world.





First let me comment that I am personally kind of ashamed to have to answer these attacks — ashamed not for myself, but for the fact that people who seem to be mostly conservative are making such attacks on anybody.


Does “anybody” include our President?





Of course it does. "Anybody" includes anybody. I don't support baseless attacks on anyone.





I do not feel that such non-fact-based, personal public attacks express conservative values.


Had you criticized such attacks against others in the past?





Yes. Why do you ask? Have you? If not, then what business is it of yours?





Would you defend me? It doesn't look like it from here. You began your post with a sarcastic, "Welcome to our world," then continued by ask questions that sound as if I'm on trial.





Have you ever defended conservatives? Did you defend President Bush? If you didn't, then what right do you have to expect the same from me?





To me, being a conservative means, among other things: traditional values of honesty, truth, and kindness whenever possible to other people. And they include not judging until I know the facts.





Actually, I started my investigation tending to believe that Barack Obama was probably born somewhere other than the United States.


What led you to that belief?





Things that I had heard and read up to that point. What led you to your beliefs?





How did that square with not judging until you know the facts?


Everyone forms opinions based on what they know. Have you thoroughly investigated everything you've formed a belief about? Why do you expect that I should have?








As a result of 3 months of testing the fraud theories and thinking long and hard about the evidence, I now tend to believe he was born in Honolulu, just as the Hawaii Department of Health has been telling us.


What led you to that belief?





3 months of testing the fraud theories and thinking long and hard about the evidence.





What additional evidence would it take for you to believe, rather than tend to believe?


I'm a skeptic about everything, including things I've already come to a conclusion on. I "tend to believe" much more often than I "believe." I consider that a strength.








That still doesn’t make him a decent President — but at least it reassures me that our American system hasn’t failed us quite as badly as a lot of people seem to think it has.


Your findings support Barack Obama’s innocence of the charges of fraud, deceit, usurpation and worse that have been leveled against him. In other words, whatever you think of his Presidency, he appears to be a decent human being who has certainly not been treated decently.





But it's okay, because the system hasn’t failed “us” too badly. I find that attitude more than a little arrogant and lacking in the values you cite above as those of conservatives.





I never condoned treating anybody indecently, and I find your intimation that I have offensive.





Personally, I find your attitude more than a little arrogant, and your "questions" rather offensive as well. They have no ring of honest questions you'd like an answer for. They come across to me as your desire to "grill" me -- simply because you just don't like my political views.Interesting that we posted at precisely the same time. I have extended my apologies for a criticism which was incorrectly directed to you. So, I can understand your puzzlement. See the post immediately above yours.

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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#173

Post by jmw »

Thanks for the apology, which is certainly accepted.I think my sense of being needlessly and not entirely fairly criticized by June bug's earlier post mixed together with a fairly thorough sense of not knowing why I was being labeled "dismissive" and a somewhat unusual amount of tiredness to provoke a reaction stronger than I would normally have had.

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New book: "Is Barack Obama's Birth Certificate a FRAUD?"

#174

Post by jmw »

JohnI think where you lost some folks is when you said you refused to to refer to President Obama as the President until you undertook your own investigation of the Birther claims. That admission reveals a disrespect for the Constitution that many find objectionable. If you cannot understand that I overestimated you.As far as not refering to President Obama as "President Obama" until I believed he was legitimately President, I don't know why that would upset you. I see no disrespect of the Constitution there. If you sincerely suspect that the person in the White House is not legally there, then why would you refer to him with the title of "President?"I honestly also think that was partly a response to what I had seen on the part of liberals when George W Bush was President. It didn't seem to matter how many times the votes were counted, many refused to accept or acknowledge him as President. Even when they did, he was widely portrayed as being an idiot, a chimpanzee, and so forth. He was accused of being in on 9/11. The difference that I see is that in Bush's case there was a lot of negativity that came also from the mainstream media. So I think to some degree it was also a response to that.

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