Plane Crash - Jet Crash

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GreatGrey
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#851

Post by GreatGrey » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:32 am

On Mar 12th 2019 the NTSB provided an update stating:

https://go.usa.gov/xEAGB
The wreckage was situated in a shallow muddy swamp area, and the main debris field was oriented east to west and about 350 yards long by about 200 yards wide (figure 1). One engine and some landing gear components were found beyond the main debris field to the west. Less dense components and a large portion of the cargo floated southward and were recovered up to 20 miles away.

Air traffic control communications and radar data indicated the flight was normal from Miami to the Houston terminal area. About 12:30 pm the pilots contacted the Houston terminal radar approach control (TRACON) arrival controller and reported descending for runway 26L; the airplane was at 17,800 ft with a ground speed 320 knots.

At 12:34, the airplane was descending through 13,800 ft, and the controller advised of an area of light to heavy precipitation along the flight route and that they could expect vectors around the weather.

About 12:35, the flight was transferred to the Houston TRACON final controller, and the pilot reported they had received the Houston Automatic Terminal Information System weather broadcast. The controller told the pilots to expect vectors to runway 26L and asked if they wanted to go to the west or north of the weather.

Radar data indicated the airplane continued the descent through 12,000 ft with a ground speed of 290 knots, consistent with the arrival procedure. The pilots responded that they wanted to go to the west of the area of precipitation. The controller advised that to do so, they would need to descend to 3,000 ft expeditiously.

About 12:37, the controller instructed the pilots to turn to a heading of 270°. Radar data indicated the airplane turned, and the automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B) data indicated a selected heading of 270°. The airplane was descending through 8,500 ft at this time.

About 12:38, the controller informed the pilots that they would be past the area of weather in about 18 miles, that they could expect a turn to the north for a base leg to the approach to runway 26L, and that weather was clear west of the precipitation area. The pilots responded, “sounds good” and “ok.” At this time, radar and ADS-B returns indicated the airplane levelled briefly at 6,200 ft and then began a slight climb to 6,300 ft.

Also, about this time, the FDR data indicated that some small vertical accelerations consistent with the airplane entering turbulence. Shortly after, when the airplane’s indicated airspeed was steady about 230 knots, the engines increased to maximum thrust, and the airplane pitch increased to about 4° nose up and then rapidly pitched nose down to about 49° in response to column input. The stall warning (stick shaker) did not activate.

FDR, radar, and ADS-B data indicated that the airplane entered a rapid descent on a heading of 270°, reaching an airspeed of about 430 knots. A security camera video captured the airplane in a steep, generally wings-level attitude until impact with the swamp. FDR data indicated that the airplane gradually pitched up to about 20 degrees nose down during the descent.

The NTSB reported the captain had been with the company since 2015, held an ATPL and had accumulated about 11,000 hours of flight experience, thereof about 1250 on type. The first officer was with the company since 2017, also held an ATPL and had accumulated about 5000 hours of flight experience with 520 hours on type
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#852

Post by Whip » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:03 pm

almost seems like they encountered a microburst

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#853

Post by tek » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:20 pm

In the other (unrelated) crash-related news, many countries have now grounded the 737MAX.. not the US so far, however.

Still not clear the Ethiopia crash is related to the LionAir crash.. waiting on FDR data to get some clarity on that..
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#854

Post by Sluffy1 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:39 pm

Whip wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:03 pm
almost seems like they encountered a microburst
from 4° nose up and then rapidly pitched nose down to about 49° in response to column input
sounds more like they got a crazy pilot to me .

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#855

Post by tek » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:29 pm

The wording has been changed from 'in response to column input" to "in response to nose-down elevator deflection"
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#856

Post by much ado » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:44 pm

tek wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:29 pm
The wording has been changed from 'in response to column input" to "in response to nose-down elevator deflection"
Which means they aren't sure how the elevator was being controlled, manually or automatically?

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#857

Post by GreatGrey » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:30 pm

Ground school...


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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#858

Post by Whip » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:52 pm


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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#859

Post by SLQ » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:16 am

I saw that the FAA had advised updating the software. It made me wonder if it is possible for a bad actor to toy with the software to cause the autopilot nose-down, descending scenario?

I'm watching Rachel, and she showed several complaints by pilots that were eerily similar: Cockpit errors sounding a verbal alarm "Descending" followed by "Don't sink! Don't sink!"
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#860

Post by RTH10260 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:52 am

SLQ wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:16 am
I saw that the FAA had advised updating the software. It made me wonder if it is possible for a bad actor to toy with the software to cause the autopilot nose-down, descending scenario?

I'm watching Rachel, and she showed several complaints by pilots that were eerily similar: Cockpit errors sounding a verbal alarm "Descending" followed by "Don't sink! Don't sink!"
Quality control keeps flight control software from being manipulated. Bad actor scenarios at software level are more than unlikely else flying would be dangerous. The FAA probably determined that the plane did not have the most recent software level loaded and reminded the companies to keep abreast with updates.

I didn't see Rachel but I consider it totally inappropriate for a lay person (even with a good research crew backing them) to pull up quotes when nobody knows the real scenario on the flight deck.

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#861

Post by Sluffy1 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:10 pm

I'm watching Rachel, and she showed several complaints by pilots that were eerily similar: Cockpit errors sounding a verbal alarm "Descending" followed by "Don't sink! Don't sink!"
Those alert events occured a second or two after the crew turned on the autopilot and were immediately corrected by those crews unpaniced fast response. By flipping the autopilot toggle switch to off, full flight control was regained. Our pilots are the best.

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#862

Post by Somerset » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:04 pm

GreatGrey wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:30 pm
Ground school...


GG - One of the questions I had with the Lion Air crash had to do with pilot qualifications for this aircraft. I'd read an article quoting the mother of one of the pilots where he told her that no simulation time was needed since he was qualified on other 737 types.

Is this possibly a case where Boeing has been "overselling" the value of the 787-Max by saying no additional pilot training is necessary? Both of the crashes have been at airlines where training is a little sketchy and with the case of Lion Air, where low costs are critical. At a carrier like Southwest Airlines I can see even informal training (experienced crew with new crew) being good enough to ensure competency with the new features of the plane, but I wonder if lack of formal training is a significant cause in these two crashes.

ETA - Found the article:

https://www.ktnv.com/news/national/lion ... ne-plunged
Captain's mother: Son said sim training unnecessary
The pilot's mother Sangeeta Suneja, herself a senior commercial manager with Air India, told CNN after a family briefing Tuesday that her son was "a sunny boy. He was loved by everybody in his company."

She says her son, Capt. Bhavye Suneja told her there was no updated training simulation session when Lion Air started using the new aircraft.

"They said it was not required... When the transition happened, he said, 'Mama, I'm going to fly the MAX.' I said, 'How can you do that (when) you don't have (a) simulator session?' He said, 'We don't need to.'"

Coming from an aviation family, she said that Suneja's sister wanted to follow in his footsteps, but that the fatal accident had shaken her faith in the technology.

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#863

Post by Somerset » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:17 pm

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... afety-flaw

Several Boeing 737 Max 8 pilots in U.S. complained about suspected safety flaw
Pilots repeatedly voiced safety concerns about the Boeing 737 Max 8 to federal authorities, with one captain calling the flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient" several months before Sunday's Ethiopian Air crash that killed 157 people, an investigation by The Dallas Morning News found.

The News found five complaints about the Boeing model in a federal database where pilots can voluntarily report about aviation incidents without fear of repercussions.

The complaints are about the safety mechanism cited in preliminary reports about an October Boeing 737 Max 8 crash in Indonesia that killed 189.

The disclosures found by The News reference problems with an autopilot system, and they all occurred during the ascent after takeoff. Many mentioned the plane suddenly nosing down. While records show these flights occurred in October and November, the airlines the pilots were flying for is redacted from the database.
ETA - From the article, a link to excerpts from a pilot's forum
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... p2/a486265

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#864

Post by Lani » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:00 pm

Just got a news alert that Trump has grounded the planes.
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#865

Post by Lani » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:02 pm

Insert signature here: ____________________________________________________

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#866

Post by SLQ » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:35 pm

RTH10260 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:52 am
SLQ wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:16 am
I saw that the FAA had advised updating the software. It made me wonder if it is possible for a bad actor to toy with the software to cause the autopilot nose-down, descending scenario?

I'm watching Rachel, and she showed several complaints by pilots that were eerily similar: Cockpit errors sounding a verbal alarm "Descending" followed by "Don't sink! Don't sink!"
Quality control keeps flight control software from being manipulated. Bad actor scenarios at software level are more than unlikely else flying would be dangerous. The FAA probably determined that the plane did not have the most recent software level loaded and reminded the companies to keep abreast with updates.

I didn't see Rachel but I consider it totally inappropriate for a lay person (even with a good research crew backing them) to pull up quotes when nobody knows the real scenario on the flight deck.
Thanks. Rachel just reported on several pilot complaints, just for the purpose of reporting that other pilots had reported similar problems. She didn't just report the quotes. She read the pilot's description of the event, too. She didn't suggest anything nefarious. That was just me asking.
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#867

Post by Grumpy Old Guy » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:47 pm

Lani wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:00 pm
Just got a news alert that Trump has grounded the planes.
That followed a Canadian move to close its airspace to the planes. Plenty of US to international routes fly over Canada, so there was little choice.

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#868

Post by GreatGrey » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:53 pm

Lani wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:00 pm
Just got a news alert that Trump has grounded the planes.
Why did he do this? He has agencies that are supposed to be responsible.

What’s next, Trump is personally going to approve drugs?
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#869

Post by tek » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:11 pm

I think the reality is that Trump announced the FAA's grounding of the MAX, though he might have failed to mention anyone other than himself being involved.

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/ ... _Order.pdf
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#870

Post by Somerset » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:12 pm

Grumpy Old Guy wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:47 pm
Lani wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:00 pm
Just got a news alert that Trump has grounded the planes.
That followed a Canadian move to close its airspace to the planes. Plenty of US to international routes fly over Canada, so there was little choice.
But few (if any) of those routes use 737s

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#871

Post by tek » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:17 pm

Boeing has grounded its entire global fleet of 737 Max aircraft after investigators uncovered new evidence at the scene of the fatal Ethiopian Airlines crash.
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#872

Post by Dan1100 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:51 pm

So I admit that I haven't been following that closely, but is what they are saying is that the autopilot is sensing a stall and pitching the airplane forward to gain airspeed/lessen angle of attack?

FWIW, which isn't much, but I think in experimental/homebuilt aircraft and I assume small General Aviation aircraft, the autopilots are built with a shear pin type of arrangement so that if the autopilot runs amok the pilot can use brute force to break the shear pins and regain control.
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#873

Post by RTH10260 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:52 pm

Dan1100 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:51 pm
So I admit that I haven't been following that closely, but is what they are saying is that the autopilot is sensing a stall and pitching the airplane forward to gain airspeed/lessen angle of attack?

FWIW, which isn't much, but I think in experimental/homebuilt aircraft and I assume small General Aviation aircraft, the autopilots are built with a shear pin type of arrangement so that if the autopilot runs amok the pilot can use brute force to break the shear pins and regain control.
On modern type commercial airplanes there is no shear pin. The planes are flown purely by wire aka electronis, no mechanical or hydraulic connections to the cockpit. The correct procedure proscribed in the manuals is to disengage the autopilot by flip of the switch on the pilots handgear. The new stall sensor functionality has its own separate switch on the cockpit ceiling over the pilots, and the pilots need to flip it when they observe the failure. Juan Browne on his blancolirio Youtube channel explained after the Lion Air crash that in the US pilots get to train this emergency in the flight similator as part of their introduction to the new 737MAX models. It seems overseas not so much. And as mentioned upthread some pilto boasted he gets to fly his new plane without any simulator training.

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#874

Post by DejaMoo » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:45 pm

The World Pulls The Andon Cord On The 737 Max
:snippity: Every airplane development is a series of compromises, but to deliver the 737 Max with its promised fuel efficiency, Boeing had to fit 12 gallons into a 10 gallon jug. Its bigger engines made for creative solutions as it found a way to mount the larger CFM International turbines under the notoriously low-slung jetliner. It lengthened the nose landing gear by eight inches, cleaned up the aerodynamics of the tail cone, added new winglets, fly-by-wire spoilers and big displays for the next generation of pilots. It pushed technology, as it had done time and time again with ever-increasing costs, to deliver a product that made its jets more-efficient and less-costly to fly.

In the case of the 737 Max, with its nose pointed high in the air, the larger engines - generating their own lift - nudged it even higher. The risk Boeing found through analysis and later flight testing was that under certain high-speed conditions both in wind-up turns and wings-level flight, that upward nudge created a greater risk of stalling. Its solution was MCAS, the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System control law that would allow for both generations of 737 to behave the same way. MCAS would automatically trim the horizontal stabilizer to bring the nose down, activated with Angle of Attack data. It’s now at the center of the Lion Air investigation and stalking the periphery of the Ethiopian crash.

The point, made awkwardly by the President of the United States Tuesday morning on Twitter without naming Boeing directly, was that the complexity of aviation technology was being pushed too hard and at too great a cost to safety, all in the name of economics.
:snippity:
Lion Air 610 should never have been allowed to get airborne on October 29, a conclusion shared by those familiar with the inquiry. The plane simply wasn’t airworthy. According to the preliminary investigation, PK-LQP’s Angle of Attack sensors were disagreeing by 20-degrees as the aircraft taxied for takeoff. A warning light that would’ve alerted the crew to the disagreement wasn’t part of the added-cost optional package of equipment on Lion Air’s 737 Max aircraft. A guardrail wasn’t in place. Once the aircraft was airborne, the erroneous Angle of Attack data collided with an apparently unprepared crew with tragic consequences as the MCAS system repeatedly activated, driving the jet’s nose into a fatal dive.
I've heard this bull before.

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#875

Post by RTH10260 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:15 pm

Boeing 737 Max aircraft grounded 'until May at least'

All Boeing 737 Max 8 and 9 aircraft will remain grounded at least until May after the fatal Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday, the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has said.

The aircraft will not fly until a software update can be tested and installed, the US regulator said.

Sunday's crash, shortly after take-off from Addis Ababa, killed 157 people from 35 nations.

It was the second crash involving a 737 Max in six months.

Some people have pointed to similarities between the incidents, with some experts citing satellite data and evidence from the crash scene as showing links between Sunday's disaster and October's crash in Indonesia of the Lion Air jet that killed 189 people.

US Representative Rick Larsen said the software upgrade would take a few weeks to complete, and installing it on all the aircraft would take "at least through April".

The FAA said on Wednesday that a software fix for the 737 Max that Boeing had been working on since the Lion Air crash would take months to complete.

Meanwhile, investigators in France have taken charge of the crashed Ethiopian Airlines aircraft's black boxes as they attempt to uncover what caused the Boeing 737 Max disaster.


https:// www.bbc.com/news/business-47567039

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