Koran burnt in Florida church

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ducktape
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Koran burnt in Florida church

#1

Post by ducktape » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:41 pm

Koran burnt in Florida church





The jury deliberated for about eight minutes. The book, which had been soaking for an hour in kerosene, was put in a metal tray in the center of the church, and Sapp started the fire with a barbecue lighter.I guess they already knew what the verdict would be.

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#2

Post by poutine » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:42 pm

This act is a disgrace, but so is the fact that the media gave this story so much attention when the act was last threatened. In fact, the media circus back then literally put our soldiers abroad at risk, and forced our Secretary of Defense to take time out of his day to bother placing a personal phone call to these bozos. I'm thoroughly disgusted.

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#3

Post by poutine » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:45 pm

Lol! A comment posted to a [link]blog post,http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/03/te ... hat_k.html[/link] on this story:What if the Koran had been found innocent? That would have been awkward- what with it soaking in kerosene and all. :lol:

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#4

Post by DaveMuckey » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:50 pm

Classy.

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#5

Post by mimi » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:03 am

He said he was gonna do it. Terry Randall told him he "blinked". This was from that same protest where they threw the tiny crosses at the man praying in front of the White House. Holy Cao was there.Randall Terry Says Terry Jones 'Blinked' On Koran Burning (VIDEO)Ryan J. Reilly | March 3, 2011, 3:36PMAnti-abortion rights activist Randall Terry and anti-Islam Rev. Terry Jones -- undoubtably two of slickest self-promoting crusaders for their respective causes -- ran into one another outside the White House on Thursday, where Terry said the pastor "blinked" on his plan to burn copies of the Koran."You should'a burned the Korans by the way, you blinked. You should'a burned them," Terry said.more:[/break1]talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/randall_terry_says_terry_jones_blinked_on_koran_burning_video.php]http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.c ... _video.php

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Koran burnt in Florida church

#6

Post by Clairez » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:08 am

Idiots. Sound and fury signifying nothing.Just red meat to the crazy RWNJ's.

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#7

Post by Somerset » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:59 am

Not sure how these bozos found the Qu'ran "guilty" of something when I can't imagine that they've actually read it. Here's a counterpoint everyone might appreciate[/break1]ted.com/talks/lesley_hazelton_on_reading_the_koran.html] ... koran.html

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#8

Post by LM K » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:22 am

This act is a disgrace, but so is the fact that the media gave this story so much attention when the act was last threatened. In fact, the media circus back then literally put our soldiers abroad at risk, and forced our Secretary of Defense to take time out of his day to bother placing a personal phone call to these bozos.





I'm thoroughly disgusted.Amen.





I find this vulgar and indescribably vile. So many Americans wonder why we are so hated by the Muslim world. Might it be that we are too tolerant of these assholes? Might it be that sites like Atlas Shrugged and Jihad Watch will celebrate this action and encourage more to engage in such behavior? Might it be the twitter comments that Ann Coulter will send out? Might it be the Fox interview in which an interviewee is gushing about the righteousness found in Quran burning?





Sometimes I think that some Americans work really, really hard to make certain that we are all hated.





This "pastor" has blood on his hands. I am not claiming that terrorism is justified in any way or for any reason. But it isn't hard to understand why anyone would be furious when their holy book is desecrated. Muslims treat the Quran with much more respect than Christians treat their bibles. There is no need to poke a snake with a stick. But this "pastor" just did that.








The Koran as a book is certainly not more offensive then the Christian Holy Book.





Take this as a very good / bad example:





[/break1]jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/witches_and_wizards.htm]http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 ... izards.htmSo the burning was the result of a pissing contest. How noble. Jesus must be so very proud.





A book that I have been meaning to read for ages is [link]The Year of Living Biblically: One Man's Humble Quest to Follow the Bible as Literally as Possible,[/link]. I have read a portion of the book and have read an interview with the author. The book sounds amazing, and I believe it to be an eye-opener to Christians about the history of their faith.





In my experience, when I discuss the Quran with others, I will point out something in the Bible that is similar to what that other person is condemning in the Quran. What is the typical response to my argument? "Yeah, but....."





Those two words are the summation of the average Christian Islamophobe's argument about the violence and laws/rules in the old/new testaments.





In college, I was taking an upper-division theology class. We were discussing the nature of the trinity and how the trinity created a comprehensive identity of God. I was in the process of leaving the church/faith, but not many of my fellow students at my small religious college knew that. They did know that I was theologically liberal (as were the majority of the college's faculty) and a theological feminist. As we discussed the nature of God/Trinity, I used a logical argument based on the Biblical definitions of God. If God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent then God is capable of evil, capable of transcending how s/he defines him/herself in scripture and not bound by time. A few of my fellow students lost it. One student punched his friend pretty hard to make a bizarre argument about history being fixed and thus God had historically fixed her/himself to the definition that s/he created for him/herself in scripture dating to the beginning of time. "I hit my friend and God can't change that!"





This experience was a defining moment in my understanding of how some have a deep emotional need to cling to their interpretation of their faith regardless of the evidence brought before them. I think that a lot of Islamophobia is based in this inability to redefine aspects of faith. I could chose 10 concepts from Islam that are in perfect harmony with the Bible and present them to an Islamophobe and they will still be transfixed on one out-of-context passage that fits their stereotype of Islam. I think that we are at a point in time in which many Christians need to have an evil, bastardized form of Islam to look to so that they can calm their doubts about their own faith. For some reason, Americans appear to need Islam to be evil, regardless of what the Quran or Bible actually say.





The trial that occurred before the Quran burning would have been fascinating and horrifying to listen to. It would have violated the majority of what the Christian scriptures say. But one only needs a handful of out-of-context verses to justify any kind of horror as being right in the eyes of God.





The Quran-burning "pastor" put our soldiers at risk and his own faith at risk. He has absolutely no idea of what the ramifications of this will be. He is and wants to be purposefully ignorant of those consequences. All this so that he could show Terry Randell that he "didn't blink" this time.





I have to ask myself; why isn't Terry Randell burning Qurans as well? Why isn't Randell practicing what he preaches?
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Koran burnt in Florida church

#9

Post by MaineSkeptic » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:50 am

Like most of us, I'm sure, I've been thinking about these things for a very long time -- so long that I've become impatient and over-simplistic about it.But to me, it tends to reduce to a single, bizarre fantasy.The Ultimate Judgment arrives. The world as we know it is in chaos. And, in a blaze of glory, a messenger appears, the avatar of All That Is Holy, and s/he is carrying an envelope which s/he opens. S/he removes a card, from which s/he reads aloud."Brothers and Sisters of the world, you have all practiced different faiths over the ages, some in sincerity and some in hypocrisy. You have taken your faiths to your hearts and clung to them, even in the face of opposing faiths that contradicted your own. And, until this moment, you've had no definitive knowledge of which of these contradictory faiths was true."But now I can tell you: Brothers and Sisters, those of you who believe in Faith #17 are saved! Your faith is the True Faith! Those of you who believe in #1 through #16 and #18 and up, you are condemned to eternal perdition."But thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you."

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Koran burnt in Florida church

#10

Post by TollandRCR » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:27 am

What will be most telling is whether others mimic his act of desecration. If this stops with one nut, maybe people will see the act for what it is: pure unadulterated ignorant hatred. If it spreads, we have a problem.
“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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#11

Post by Foggy » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:10 pm

Brothers and Sisters, those of you who believe in Faith #17 are saved!See, I'm ready for that. A long-term plan, I haz one. That's what bein' an agnostic is all about.And that fits right into my long-term plan. Like most youngsters, I wasn't raised to believe in #17. i was raised in one a them other, no good, useless faiths. And like most parents, my parents didn't tell me that any of the other faiths might be the winner, and not our faith. And like some youngsters, when I grew up and found out there were about 47 different versions of Christianity, not even to mention all those other faiths ... I became puzzled. I looked at a bunch of them, particularly when I was a young hippie in San Francisco, ages 18 to 21. I tried to figure out which one was the winner. How could I know it was #17? My approach was, I thought to myself, s'posin' I came from some other planet and never heard tell of ANY of 'em? How would I decide? Would I pick the one that makes the most rational sense? Would I pick the one that most closely followed our known science? 'Course, our science is still in it's pre-infancy, far as I can tell. We don't know shit, even after all these years. It's only been 150 years since we discovered the need for sanitary surgery, for cripe's sake!So eventually, I came to the conclusion: "I don't know." Which is what makes a good agnostic. We don't believe ANY of the faiths, until we get some more evidence.But the messenger avatar of All That Is Holy dude, with the card in the envelope, that's some evidence right there, by cracky. I'll walk up to him and say, "Thank (whoever the god of #17 is), I'm finally ready to choose. #17, huh? Who'da thunk it? I didn't believe in 1 through 16 or 18 and up, no sir. I've just tried real hard to be a good person all these years, and waited for some guidance. Look back over my writings for the past 40 years, you'll see I always kept an open mind, and was just hoping that someone like you would show me the way and the light.""Number 17, huh? That's MY faith, now. So, umm ... like, whaddya got in the bag?" ;;)
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#12

Post by kate520 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:39 pm

Skeptic and Foggy: :lol: :lol:
DEFEND DEMOCRACY

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#13

Post by Clairez » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:49 pm

People believe most often in the religion that they were raised in. Born to Catholic Parents? Most likely to be Catholic. Born to Islamic Parents, chances are you will be a Muslim. Parents are from India, good chance you are Hindu.No particular religion can claim they have "the truth." They are all equally based on faith.

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#14

Post by poutine » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:02 pm

A favorite quote of mine from Gandhi:I came to the conclusion long ago … that all religions were true and also that all had some error in them, and whilst I hold by my own, I should hold others as dear as Hinduism. So we can only pray, if we are Hindus, not that a Christian should become a Hindu … But our innermost prayer should be a Hindu should be a better Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Christian a better Christian.

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#15

Post by TollandRCR » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:15 pm

People believe most often in the religion that they were raised in. Born to Catholic Parents? Most likely to be Catholic. Born to Islamic Parents, chances are you will be a Muslim. Parents are from India, good chance you are Hindu.No particular religion can claim they have "the truth." They are all equally based on faith.That highlights the basic immorality of the traditional conservative Christian view of salvation. Whether or not one is a member of "the right" Christian sect is an accident of time and space. It is highly likely that people in the remote reaches of New England have never heard of "the churches of Christ," a sect that claims that it alone is the true Christian church and that salvation can only come through it. Yet their gawd proclaims itself to be willing to condemn to eternal punishment all people who were not members of the churches of Christ (they do leave room for "grace"). Then move the locale and time from provincial New England to encompass the vast majority of humanity for the past 2,000 years, and it will be obvious that very few humans have ever been given a chance of joining "the right church." I would personally consider any gawd who would create such a system of salvation to be evil in the extreme. The absurdity and immorality of this theological position is lost on true believer adherents. They go through life believing that almost everyone around them is doomed to Hell. It affects how one thinks and how one deals with others. It is a form of mental sickness if not formal mental illness, and it causes harm.
“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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#16

Post by LM K » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:58 pm

That highlights the basic immorality of the traditional conservative Christian view of salvation. Whether or not one is a member of "the right" Christian sect is an accident of time and space. It is highly likely that people in the remote reaches of New England have never heard of "the churches of Christ," a sect that claims that it alone is the true Christian church and that salvation can only come through it. Yet their gawd proclaims itself to be willing to condemn to eternal punishment all people who were not members of the churches of Christ (they do leave room for "grace"). Then move the locale and time from provincial New England to encompass the vast majority of humanity for the past 2,000 years, and it will be obvious that very few humans have ever been given a chance of joining "the right church." I would personally consider any gawd who would create such a system of salvation to be evil in the extreme.The absurdity and immorality of this theological position is lost on true believer adherents. They go through life believing that almost everyone around them is doomed to Hell. It affects how one thinks and how one deals with others. It is a form of mental sickness if not formal mental illness, and it causes harm.Agreed. My dad's parents are/were (grandma died) very, very fundamentalist. When my grandparents lived in Minnesota, my grandfather told my dad that their church was "THE ONLY" bible teaching church in the US. The only one. Interestingly, when they moved to Oregon, they found another church that was also a "bible teaching" church. :-k After 9/11, my aunt emailed me because she was very distraught that my faith and her faith were not the same. I was a liberal Christian at the time and dad's family is of the severe branch of the southern baptists. My aunt asked me if I had ever "truly read" the bible. The fact that I had attended a religious college for 5 years and had taken a gazillion theology courses escaped her. Or she believed that one doesn't read the bible at a religious school that requires you to attend chapel services several times a week and requires that you graduate with a gazillion credit hours in theology. Or that someone willing to attend chapel and a gazillion theology classes would do so out of a desire to understand scripture.My aunt and my grandfather believe that the King James version of the bible is THE ONLY TRUE BIBLE. So I guess, in her eyes, I hadn't read the bible. And she was truly distraught and tormented by the thought that I and the rest of my immediate family would go to hell because we had read a different version of the bible, which had led us astray and into damnation. I don't like her god. I am not anti-faith or anti-religion. I am anti-ignorance and anti-hypocrisy. Christians claim that God is merciful. If that is true, I can't imagine that reading the New Revised Standard version of the bible instead of the King James version damned me to hell. In fact, I can't believe that a merciful God would allow anyone to be eternally damned. Even Muslims.
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#17

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:14 pm

Lemme see. Can I mention who else celebrated the burning of books without violating Godwin's law? :-k Nope.

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#18

Post by TollandRCR » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:27 pm

My aunt and my grandfather believe that the King James version of the bible is THE ONLY TRUE BIBLE. So I guess, in her eyes, I hadn't read the bible. And she was truly distraught and tormented by the thought that I and the rest of my immediate family would go to hell because we had read a different version of the bible, which had led us astray and into damnation.Of course, there is an entire school that attacks the King James Version as a plot to subvert Christianity. Some only criticize it: [link]Irrefutable proof the translators were not inspired and false teachings of the KJV,http://www.bible.ca/b-kjv-only.htm[/link]. KJV ONLYism is fairly broadly attacked. This despite the fact that we know that St. Peter carried with him a copy of the KJV as printed by Thomas Nelson, Inc. On that real thin paper.
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#19

Post by MaineSkeptic » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:51 pm

KJV ONLYism is fairly broadly attacked. This despite the fact that we know that St. Peter carried with him a copy of the KJV as printed by Thomas Nelson, Inc. On that real thin paper.Remember .... that your native language is the language of Shakespeare and Milton and The Bible.

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#20

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:57 pm

KJV ONLYism is fairly broadly attacked. This despite the fact that we know that St. Peter carried with him a copy of the KJV as printed by Thomas Nelson, Inc. On that real thin paper.Remember .... that your native language is the language of Shakespeare and Milton and The Bible.As Ma Ferguson said: "If English was good enough for Jeebus Christ, it's good enough for me."

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#21

Post by bob » Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:59 pm

Making the RWNJ circle: [/break1]tampabay.com/news/courts/civil/article1158818.ece]Judge orders use of Islamic law in Tampa lawsuit over mosque leadershipThe question of what law applies in any Florida courtroom usually comes down to two choices: federal or state.But Hillsborough Circuit Judge Richard Nielsen is being attacked by conservative bloggers after he ruled in a lawsuit March 3 that, to resolve one crucial issue in the case, he will consult a different source."This case," the judge wrote, "will proceed under Ecclesiastical Islamic Law."Nielsen said he will decide in a lawsuit against a local mosque, the Islamic Education Center of Tampa, whether the parties in the litigation properly followed the teachings of the Koran in obtaining an arbitration decision from an Islamic scholar.[...]Markus Wagner, a professor of international law at the University of Miami School of Law, said it is not improper for a judge to use foreign law in an arbitration if all the parties agree to do so.[...]Nielsen, [highlight]an appointee of Gov. Jeb Bush in 2000[/highlight] who was subsequently elected, also did not return calls for comment.All Obama's fault.
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#22

Post by poutine » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:07 pm

What these morons don't realize is that any attack on the right of American Muslims to apply Islamic law to their internal religious affairs is also an attack on the right of Catholics to apply Catholic law to church affairs, etc.There is no logical way out of the position they have taken that can be reconciled with the 1st Amendment's religious establishment clause.

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#23

Post by mimi » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:12 pm

I saw that in teh #phnm twitter stream yesterday. I don't completely understand.

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#24

Post by Res Ipsa » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:29 pm

But now I can tell you: Brothers and Sisters, those of you who believe in Faith #17 are saved!


South Park did that scene.





It was the Mormons.





the basic immorality of the traditional conservative Christian view of salvation


You underestimate them, and their ability to address that point.





So, I will be the Devil's Advocate...





The "basic immorality" is that of the original sin of all mankind, and the presumption that ANY should be saved. In other words, what all humans merit is eternal death. You are taking a gift - a bonus - and turning it on its head. The default position for all humans is damnation. We are all damned from the get-go. So, that some are saved, through the grace of God, is the miracle here.





Of course, if you translate "grace" as "caprice" you end up running into the same problem, and the main splits among protestants are in how one deals with that.





Calvinists have it easy - it's all predestined. If it is an act of "free will" to receive salvation, then basically the ball has been moved back to salvation being dependent on an act of the sinner. Since God will always hold up his end of the bargain, then salvation is entirely in your own hands.





Conservative protestants of all stripes, though, will fall back on Romans 3:23 as a starting point - all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.





There are a variety of rationalizations for the "problem" of the un-preached, unreached, and incompetent. The first one - infants - arises from the inevitable heartbroken parents seeking religious counseling from someone who, if he/she has any sense - is not going to say, "Your baby didn't know Christ and is in Hell." So, instead, we come up with things like Limbo, or some sort of dispensation until the age of "moral reasoning" kicks in.





But, really, recognizing this as a "problem" is a tribute to the basic humanism of even very religious folks. They don't WANT to admit that remote tribesmen are shit out of luck, so they invent rationalizations such as "They will be judged according to what they know." In that case, my favorite answer is, "Then let's not go muck it up by preaching the Gospel to them, since they might have been fine before you gave them that choice."





This is also one of the problems that motivated Mormonism as a solution. While Europeans could consider the dominant cult at the end of the Roman Empire to have reached "the whole world", the problem posed by the populated New World in the Americas wasn't solved until Joseph Smith, using what amounted to a science fiction story published some years earlier, revealed that Christ apparently went on tour after the resurrection.
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#25

Post by realist » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:30 pm

As I understand that case, they were before the court asking to enforce the results of the arbitration that had been done according to Islamic law. What the judge's ruling was/is going to entail is whether the Sharia/Islamic law had indeed been followed in the arbitration.Mansour, et al. v Islamic Education Center of Tampa[link]Order in Connection with Plaintiffs' Emergency Motion to Enforce Arbitrator's Award,[/link]
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