Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

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Danraft
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#126

Post by Danraft » Tue May 29, 2018 1:44 am

While I applaud the progress towards a fairer, less discriminatory, less aggressive world, I also wonder how much it goes against human -- specifically human male -- nature. We are animals with similar inherent drives as other animals. And, as with other social animals, it is natural for men to fight, to seek mates, to strive for dominance, to seek to bend others to their will, to take risks to rise above the crowd, to do those crazy or annoying things that testosterone makes men do. That was fine in medieval times, when few cared about the rights or wellbeing of other people, lives were cheap and daily life was precarious and uncertain. It's not as appropriate now.
I can grok that.
Riddle me this, tho.
Why do most of the young white male school shooters not exhibit interests in competitive sports. Or, even paintball wars or laser tag?
Or, would that be considered support for the " there isn't an outlet for testosterone induced braggacio"?
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#127

Post by woodworker » Tue May 29, 2018 9:15 pm

I would hazard a guess, and this is strictly a wag, that in competitive sports, even the sports where no team is required, competitors and/or teammates, as the case may be, get a vibe and don't want to participate with him. In my younger days I was fairly decent at racquetball and squash. I can say personally that there were just some players that no one wanted to play with -- had nothing to do with relative skill levels, or whether the other played was a little fast and loose with rules or the calls, or because they whined all the time, or because they were introverted or shy, but because one just didn't feel comfortable around them.

Again a WAG, but I would bet that we have all encountered people like that, personally and/or professionally. I am only surprised that there are not more people going wacko and, with the availability of guns, killing a lot of people.
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#128

Post by Hercule Parrot » Wed May 30, 2018 5:42 am

woodworker wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 11:50 pm
Have I mentioned that I miss them every day?
Condolences, woodworker. If it's any consolation at all, they had a great life filled with love and fun. While we have ageing and mortality, that's the most any of us can hope for.

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#129

Post by neeneko » Wed May 30, 2018 6:38 am

Danraft wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 1:44 am
Why do most of the young white male school shooters not exhibit interests in competitive sports. Or, even paintball wars or laser tag?
Or, would that be considered support for the " there isn't an outlet for testosterone induced braggacio"?
Some of them had.

Drawing generalizations is difficult since the sample set has been small and diverse, but 'lack of competitive outlet' has not been a notable element in the people who actually go shooting places up. When you are a narcissist (a recurring trait in these cases) outlets only have utility if you end up being the highest profile competitor. Simply adding more outlets solves the wrong problem since it is not a test of skills they want but instead validation of the place they believe they should occupy.

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#130

Post by pipistrelle » Wed May 30, 2018 7:07 am

neeneko wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:38 am
Danraft wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 1:44 am
Why do most of the young white male school shooters not exhibit interests in competitive sports. Or, even paintball wars or laser tag?
Or, would that be considered support for the " there isn't an outlet for testosterone induced braggacio"?
Some of them had.

Drawing generalizations is difficult since the sample set has been small and diverse, but 'lack of competitive outlet' has not been a notable element in the people who actually go shooting places up. When you are a narcissist (a recurring trait in these cases) outlets only have utility if you end up being the highest profile competitor. Simply adding more outlets solves the wrong problem since it is not a test of skills they want but instead validation of the place they believe they should occupy.
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#131

Post by Hercule Parrot » Wed May 30, 2018 9:02 am

Danraft wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 1:44 am
Why do most of the young white male school shooters not exhibit interests in competitive sports. Or, even paintball wars or laser tag?
Or, would that be considered support for the " there isn't an outlet for testosterone induced braggacio"?
I agree with the points made about social skills & tastes. UK doesn't have the 'jock culture' thing as bad as USA, but even here to play in a soccer or rugby team requires participation in complex transactions of bonding and dominance. You have to have the appropriate 'attitude' to engage in competitive team sports, or you won't have a happy time of it.

I never enjoyed it. The glee and glory of beating others doesn't motivate me. My sport was in the mountains, climbing and caving with a small group of regular friends. Many of the same social aspects, but also quite different. More trust & interdependency, good cheer and endurance.

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#132

Post by RoadScholar » Wed May 30, 2018 10:14 am

Lest we forget, there used to be cultural memes like the caveman with a club dragging an unconscious cavewoman toward the cave. Funny, right? No, it was actually a depiction of a violent rape in progress.

And that was not that long ago. I've seen that basic cartoon fairly recently. Little wonder, then, that there are men about who are nostalgic for the days when men could be "real men" and "take what they want." :cantlook:

To them, the idea that a woman can say "no" is an affront to their masculinity. To which I say: Suck it up, assholes. :madguy:
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#133

Post by Danraft » Thu May 31, 2018 12:23 am

I agree with the points made about social skills & tastes. UK doesn't have the 'jock culture' thing as bad as USA, but even here to play in a soccer or rugby team requires participation in complex transactions of bonding and dominance. You have to have the appropriate 'attitude' to engage in competitive team sports, or you won't have a happy time of it.
I suppose it doesn't have to be Team Sports. I did team sports in Jr High and found it entirely to inconsistent with too many variables I couldn't control and switched to individual sports where I didn't have to worry about anyone else's frame of mind or focus but mine and ended up with an A rating in both Foil and Epee.
I fenced with some greats** from all over and thought I was hot snot until I went to Paris for 2 weeks and got handed a healthy serving up "Humble Quiche" at the Racing Club by the Eiffel Tower.
Whatever the hobby, I think working to improve one's game, "legnthen your line" in the terms of the Inner Game of Tennis, constant goal oriented behavior--- would leave little room for petty indignation

?After watching a few seasons of Numb3rs, it seems that an algorithm could be generated to show high risk youth, although that is a bit too 1984-Orwellian...

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#134

Post by Sam the Centipede » Thu May 31, 2018 3:56 am

Sorry, late back to this thread. On Danraft's question about why do these men not engage in competitive sports: I don't see that as inconsistent with what I said because they would be losers, and that's not going to satisfy any of their urges. We see it in some animal societies: alpha males running the show, getting the laydeez, beta males looking for opportunities to become alphas with the consequent breeding opportunities, but what of the gammas? -- they might accept their fate and fit in somehow for an easy life (switch off those testosterone drives), they might depart to seek better opportunities, or they might stay but the testosterone manifests its effects in driving them to be annoying or destructive.

I wonder how much these men are fretting at their gamma status without any other fulfilling diversion in their lives? Sports, either team sports or solo activities are one option, but so are creative activities (crafts), arts such as painting or music, projects such as building or restoring something, exploration, and so on. But some diversions are surely unfulfilling, including obsessions with guns, uncritical watching of television, etc.

The shorter form of my thesis is that there are aspects of maleness that create an innate drive for boys to be disruptive and annoying. Of course, people vary, so it's not absolutely all boys. Most men have learnt to harness, divert or suppress those drives. Our problems are often with those who have not. They need appropriate diversions.

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#135

Post by Suranis » Thu May 31, 2018 11:44 am

Hmm... the "Gamma males" mention reminds me of an article I read a while back on some Primates. I cant remember what type of primate it was. But what they observed that aside from the Alpha and Beta Males there was another small class of males that simply didn't give a fuck about the Bro competition. They generally stayed around the females and played with the young, and when under attack they protected the females and young. When one of the Alphas attacked one of these Gamma males, they were dogpiled by the females and the Gamma gave a good accounting of itself, so it wasn't lack of fighting ability that forced it into the role. And because they were around the females the Gammas got a fair amount of illicit sex.

The conclusion was that dividing Males up into the Alpha Beta Bro culture was simplistic. My thought at the time was that the Bro culture was actually there because the bros could not actually relate to the females any other way so going into the sex role was the way to go.

Not sure if this relates to Incels in any way, but it sparked my memory and I thought it was interesting.
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#136

Post by Addie » Thu May 31, 2018 10:36 pm

Except for news and politics, I know I don't get around much. But Jebus :eek2: These people aren't civilized. These are beasts.

HuffPo
Congressional Candidate In Virginia Admits He’s A Pedophile ...

Nathan Larson, a 37-year-old accountant from Charlottesville, Virginia, is running for Congress as an independent candidate in his native state. He is also a pedophile, as he admitted to HuffPost on Thursday, who has bragged in website posts about raping his late ex-wife.

In a phone call, Larson confirmed that he created the now-defunct websites suiped.org and incelocalypse.today ― chat rooms that served as gathering places for pedophiles and violence-minded misogynists like himself. HuffPost contacted Larson after confirming that his campaign website shared an IP address with these forums, among others. His sites were terminated by their domain host on Tuesday. ...

Asked whether there was a “grain of truth” in his essay about father-daughter incest and another about raping his ex-wife repeatedly, he said yes, offering that plenty of women have rape fantasies.

According to Larson’s campaign manifesto, his platform as a “quasi-neoreactionary libertarian” candidate includes protecting gun ownership rights, establishing free trade and protecting “benevolent white supremacy,” as well as legalizing incestuous marriage and child pornography.

In the manifesto, Larson called Nazi leader Adolf Hitler a “white supremacist hero.” He urged Congress to repeal the Violence Against Women Act, adding, “We need to switch to a system that classifies women as property, initially of their fathers and later of their husbands.” He also showed sympathy for men who identify as involuntary celibates, or incels, suggesting it is unfair that they “are forced to pay taxes for schools, welfare, and other support for other men’s children.”
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#137

Post by kate520 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:37 am

He's given permission for all the freaks to come out and they're all flying their favorite flags. This guy...I can't tell if he's trolling the reporter or not, how could anyone, seriously, admit what he admits and be proud about it?
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#138

Post by JohnPCapitalist » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:26 am

kate520 wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:37 am
He's given permission for all the freaks to come out and they're all flying their favorite flags. This guy...I can't tell if he's trolling the reporter or not, how could anyone, seriously, admit what he admits and be proud about it?
Perhaps because pedophiles don't think there's anything wrong with what they're doing. It's what makes them so dangerous and so likely to reoffend. I recall one story years ago in San Francisco about how NAMBLA used to have a listing in the phone book under "social service agencies." So it's entirely possible that he is serious.

It does seem a little over the top for this guy to be a pedophile, an incel, a libertarian and a white supremacist all at the same time. But if he is ID'd under his real name and not just an invisible persona on a web site, he is likely to suffer some consequences from this barrage of publicity. Someone who Googles him for many years to come will find some of the coverage from this congressional campaign and will probably avoid hiring him, etc. He has to know this is going to happen and he must think that having this sort of behavior legitimized under Trump must magically mean that there are no consequences. I can't imagine a large corporate employer being willing to take the risk of hiring someone who advocates for rape, pedophilia and women as objects because of the potential for his bad behavior in the workplace. So with all those potential consequences, it would be a very self-destructive joke to play on oneself.

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#139

Post by TollandRCR » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:38 am

Danraft wrote "After watching a few seasons of Numb3rs, it seems that an algorithm could be generated to show high risk youth, although that is a bit too 1984-Orwellian.."

I do not see this as Orwellian. TV has shaped these kids' view if what it means to be a man. It can fix that.

Suranis is right. It is not only among non-human orimates that gamma males matter.

My hobby is cooking, never sports of any kind. I intend to get back to that soon. Living in health care and hotels is a bummer. Anyone in the vicinity is invited to partake of my cooking, i intend Berkshire pork bellies as an early effort. Charlottesville is a day's drive, and I have guest accommodations..
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#140

Post by woodworker » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:45 pm

More info on the pedophile candidate (and why does he remind me of Heinrich Himmler):

https://wonkette.com/634623/this-incel- ... e-internet
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#141

Post by neeneko » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:00 pm

JohnPCapitalist wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:26 am
I recall one story years ago in San Francisco about how NAMBLA used to have a listing in the phone book under "social service agencies." So it's entirely possible that he is serious.
That actually does not surprise me, but probably does not mean what you think. NAMBLA, in its earlier life, was mostly focused on bringing Mm laws/norms in line with Mf ones.. so it was social services in the 'hey, are you getting in trouble for stuff that if you were straight no one would bat an eye much less call police?' way.

But over the decades, esp after the 80s and the 'gay male <==> pedophile', they kinda got flanderized.

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#142

Post by Addie » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:55 pm

The Guardian
The recent mass shootings in the US all have one thing in common: misogyny

The longer we ignore the toxic masculinity that underlies so many of these crimes, the more violence we’re enabling ...


Since the attack, we’ve heard Republican leaders blame the violence on everything from Ritalin use and video games to lack of religion in schools and even abortion. (Never guns, of course – despite the fact that this is the 22nd school shooting in the US just this year.)

And even though feminists continue to raise the alarm about the common thread of sexism and misogyny in these crimes, too many people seem to be missing the point.

After the attack in Toronto, New York Times columnist Ross Douthat published an ill-advised piece about the “redistribution of sex”, an idea that originated in misogynist online forums for “incels” who would like to see women forced to have sex with “low status” men. And just a few days ago, Canadian psychology professor and author Jordan Peterson, who enjoys a cult following of disaffected young men, said in a New York Times profile that young men wouldn’t commit crimes of mass violence if there was “enforced monogamy”.

The solution to misogynist crimes isn’t to ensure that violent men have sexual access to women – it’s that we teach men that they’re not entitled to women’s sexual attention to begin with.

Women should not have to be afraid of rejecting a man lest he kills her and others; men should not grow up believing that they’re owed sex by women. These should not be tall orders.
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#143

Post by Addie » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:06 pm

HuffPo: The Unmaking Of An Incel

Jack Peterson believed he was too ugly to get laid. In a dark corner of the internet, he found acceptance among a community of losers. Now he wants out.
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#144

Post by kate520 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:08 pm

He's not ugly. Who told him he was, I wonder?
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#145

Post by Suranis » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:18 pm

Society. Media.

The same wonderful concept that called me stupid till I was in my late teens.
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#146

Post by Till Eulenspiegel » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:18 pm

kate520 wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:08 pm
He's not ugly. Who told him he was, I wonder?
Ugliness - that's in the eye of the beholder.
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#147

Post by pipistrelle » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:44 pm

kate520 wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:08 pm
He's not ugly. Who told him he was, I wonder?
He's 19, the age of insecurity. He'd just know.
Edit: With a little help from his friends.

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#148

Post by Suranis » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:52 pm

He's 19 now. but he started getting involved with this when he was 12.
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#149

Post by Flatpointhigh » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:58 pm

pipistrelle wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 7:07 am
neeneko wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:38 am
Danraft wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 1:44 am
Why do most of the young white male school shooters not exhibit interests in competitive sports. Or, even paintball wars or laser tag?
Or, would that be considered support for the " there isn't an outlet for testosterone induced braggacio"?
Some of them had.

Drawing generalizations is difficult since the sample set has been small and diverse, but 'lack of competitive outlet' has not been a notable element in the people who actually go shooting places up. When you are a narcissist (a recurring trait in these cases) outlets only have utility if you end up being the highest profile competitor. Simply adding more outlets solves the wrong problem since it is not a test of skills they want but instead validation of the place they believe they should occupy.
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#150

Post by neeneko » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:13 pm

Flatpointhigh wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:58 pm
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I think it changed hands a few time. The incels of today are nothing like the ones I interacted with decades ago. It kinda feels like the 'lowest of the low and we need a safe space to talk about it' got pushed out by more aggressive 'we are low but artificially out of place' ones we see today.

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