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bob
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#6076

Post by bob »

neonzx wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:26 pm What's a bindle?


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#6077

Post by Frater I*I »

Ahhhhhh youtube....

Sometimes a great educational resource :blink:


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neonzx
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#6078

Post by neonzx »

bob wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:29 pm
neonzx wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:26 pm What's a bindle?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8b-h2FrdrE
This is what I come here for... The educational content!

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We best stop before we get in trouble for OT (but Foggy helped! :he_made_me: )


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#6079

Post by AndyinPA »

That reminds me of the little packets I've had loose diamonds in. I could never figure out how the jewelers did that.


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#6080

Post by neonzx »

AndyinPA wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:08 pm That reminds me of the little packets I've had loose diamonds in. I could never figure out how the jewelers did that.
I've seen those packets... In heist movies involving diamonds! Are you a smuggler? Those treks on Amtrak and cruise ships were just a diversion, right? "vacation, you say?" :shock: :rotflmao:

Okay. I'll stop now. :-

...
So, how have the gays in your life been doing, all?


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#6081

Post by voxpopuluxe »

neonzx wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:22 pm
Notorial Dissent wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:21 pm There are times when I think Russell Davies is a total, complete, and utter ass or prat, if you prefer the Anglicism, I use them at interchangeably at mood, and this is one of those time when I think he totally is.

I 'm curious, how does one "act" Gay in the sense referred to here?
I'm not sure. That's why Russell's comments make no sense. He wants only gay actors to be cast in gay roles.
no, his comments make perfect sense. you might disagree with his conclusion, but there's nothing incoherent about them. look, in the passage quoted above, russell's using "acting" to mean literally, acting, performing a character. and his assertion is--and it may or may not be true--is that straight actors bring a set of caricatures to they gay characters they play that a gay actor doesn't and that therefore, gay actors in gay roles are preferable.

agree or disagree, there's nothing nonsensical there. it's very similar to the argument that jen richards makes about cis actors playing trans characters in the *disclosure* documentary.

now, i tend to agree with russell's conclusion--and i think his diagnosis is probably often correct--but i think the even stronger argument is simply that given the small of number of LGBT roles in film and television, it's a matter of fairness to prioritize--all other things being equal--LGBT actors for those roles. the only argument i see against that conclusion is an assertion that acting is a meritocracy and that the "best actor" is always so obvious that it outweighs any other considerations,
I'm gay(ish), and I can act a bit. Should I have been picked over, say, Tom Hanks, to be in Philadelphia? Naw. Should I have been picked over Robin Williams to be in Birdcage? Naw. Could I have been in Brokeback Mountain? No. Or, I could have been in any of those, but I don't have the right fame to have massive boxoffice ticket sales. (another consideration when selecting actors)
judged purely by the acting, i doubt either hanks or williams did anything that many other actors couldn't have done. & the argument from box office sales is a circular one--only straight stars can bring in the tickets because there aren't any LGBT stars of comparable recognition & there won't be because no one wants to cast them.
Russell is drilling 'gay' down to almost a binary choice-- 0 or 1 (and yes, back in the 80s, there were gays who hated on people who identified as 'bisexual' -- no 0.5s allowed!). Russell hasn't kept up with the times, I think, and he's still stuck in those 80s. Or, maybe he gave a bad interview and is now trying to justify it since getting the blow-back.
i fail to see where russell is doing anything of the sort, but if he is, then we could split hairs over degrees or shades of queerness, but to do that we'd have to agree that LGBT people should be prioritized in the first place.


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#6082

Post by neonzx »

voxpopuluxe wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:54 pm
neonzx wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:22 pm
Notorial Dissent wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:21 pm There are times when I think Russell Davies is a total, complete, and utter ass or prat, if you prefer the Anglicism, I use them at interchangeably at mood, and this is one of those time when I think he totally is.

I 'm curious, how does one "act" Gay in the sense referred to here?
I'm not sure. That's why Russell's comments make no sense. He wants only gay actors to be cast in gay roles.
no, his comments make perfect sense. you might disagree with his conclusion, but there's nothing incoherent about them. look, in the passage quoted above, russell's using "acting" to mean literally, acting, performing a character. and his assertion is--and it may or may not be true--is that straight actors bring a set of caricatures to they gay characters they play that a gay actor doesn't and that therefore, gay actors in gay roles are preferable.

agree or disagree, there's nothing nonsensical there. it's very similar to the argument that jen richards makes about cis actors playing trans characters in the *disclosure* documentary.

now, i tend to agree with russell's conclusion--and i think his diagnosis is probably often correct--but i think the even stronger argument is simply that given the small of number of LGBT roles in film and television, it's a matter of fairness to prioritize--all other things being equal--LGBT actors for those roles. the only argument i see against that conclusion is an assertion that acting is a meritocracy and that the "best actor" is always so obvious that it outweighs any other considerations,
I'm doing a :snippity: not to cut you off, but just because I have some simple final comments. Take them what for what they are or not.

Russell wants everything NOW, NOW.

He's willing to throw all the actors (who put their careers on the line to play a gay role) under the bus. (played gay roles to HELP the LGBT community!)

The gay community would not be where we are today without the help of the entertainment/hollywood community, and everyone associated.

But, it's just not good enough or fast enough for Russell. His ideas would harm the progress of the LGBT community and cause a set-back. Meh, he doesn't give a crap though ... he's still pissed about something from the 80s.

You don't have to be 'gay' to play a character. -->



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#6083

Post by voxpopuluxe »

if you actually cared to address anything i wrote we might come to agreement. but instead ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i will say that "don't be hasty, don't make demands, don't be too loud, don't be ungrateful for the scraps of respect they throw us, and above all be nice and respectable or else they'll turn on us again" is the same kind of assimilationist bs that every minority group gets fed.

but "His ideas would harm the progress of the LGBT community and cause a set-back." is just straight up abuser shit when the idea is simply "maybe LGBT actors should get LGBT roles" and if you really believe this, then i feel sorry for you.
neonzx wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:52 pm Russell wants everything NOW, NOW.

He's willing to throw all the actors (who put their careers on the line to play a gay role) under the bus. (played gay roles to HELP the LGBT community!)

The gay community would not be where we are today without the help of the entertainment/hollywood community, and everyone associated.

But, it's just not good enough or fast enough for Russell. His ideas would harm the progress of the LGBT community and cause a set-back. Meh, he doesn't give a crap though ... he's still pissed about something from the 80s.

You don't have to be 'gay' to play a character. -->

straight people playing gay characters in gay tragedy-porn written by straight people for straight people is part of the problem here but we're obviously not ready for that conversation.


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#6084

Post by neonzx »

voxpopuluxe wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:21 pm if you actually cared to address anything i wrote we might come to agreement. but instead ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i will say that "don't be hasty, don't make demands, don't be too loud, don't be ungrateful for the scraps of respect they throw us, and above all be nice and respectable or else they'll turn on us again" is the same kind of assimilationist bs that every minority group gets fed.

but "His ideas would harm the progress of the LGBT community and cause a set-back." is just straight up abuser shit when the idea is simply "maybe LGBT actors should get LGBT roles" and if you really believe this, then i feel sorry for you.
What you missed maybe is this: Russell said ONLY gay actors should be cast in gay roles. EXCLUSIVELY (not "maybe ... should" or some other thing, but ONLY GAYS SHOULD GET GAY ROLES.) -- and I'm pretty sure that the word ONLY means the same in both Russell's British and and my American English.

If he had said he would first prefer to look for a gay actor when casting in a gay role, that would be different. That's not what he said.

He said ONLY gay actors for gay roles ... for "authenticity" :?


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#6085

Post by RoadScholar »

Yeah, that’s nonsense. Should they have cast a developmentally disabled woman instead of Jodi Foster in Nell? Or rejected Tom Hanks as Forrest Gump in favor of a low-IQ actor?

Type casting is lazy and artless. I know for a fact that gay actors play straight characters all the time, without seeming “stereotypically” straight. And that, if anything, gay folk are actually over-represented in theatre.

Good actors can play people who are not like themselves at all. And if they excel, they get cast. If a gay actor auditions better than anyone else for a gay role, he or she gets it. If a director picks a straight actor who can only do a lisping caricature of a queer character, he or she should be slapped. End of story.


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#6086

Post by Notorial Dissent »

That is after all why they call it acting.


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#6087

Post by neeneko »

So I am going to give a bit of a counterargument here... this is partly inspired by another thread I am following where people are upset at a director's decision to hire a neurotypical lead to play an autistic role.

A lot of this discussion has focused on the surface idea of 'acting gay' or 'acting like a gay person', but while actors are actors and can be coached to act in any role, there is something to be said for pulling from actual life experience as opposed to being told 'well, try to picture yourself in shoes XYZ and show it in your performance'.

It isn't a deciding factor, and skill/coaching can compensate, but brining in actors who are actually part of communities that they will be representing and have personal first hand knowledge of the history and struggles can influence how they treat a role, esp when the identity a core part of the story as opposed to incidental to it.

And there is a historic systemic problem of, well, directors tend to pull from the same pool of high profile cis hetro neurotypical actors because their names will get you funding and advertising. A director pushing back with "I want a person with X background to play role of X background' is something that can actually be sold to backers and audiences as a legitimate (and marketable) reason to bring in people who are talented by not in that 'will get you funding' category. Marquee value of type casting is not to be underestimated, even if it does get 'but my favorite cishetwhitedudeactors are best because everyone knows they are the best' pushback.


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#6088

Post by neonzx »

Casting call:
"STRAIGHTS NEED NOT APPLY"

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This is where Russell's road takes us.


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#6089

Post by ZekeB »

I didn't know gays acted in a certain way. I worked with three gay women and I had no idea they were gay until the scuttlebutt came back around to me.


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#6090

Post by Chilidog »

The movie, "Tropic Thunder" comes to mind here.


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#6091

Post by voxpopuluxe »

neonzx wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:06 am Casting call:
"STRAIGHTS NEED NOT APPLY"

This is where Russell's road takes us.
oh. my. god. i'm not surprised that someone around here would boo-hoo-hoo "straight oppression" in the "gay rights" thread, but i didn't think it would be so hilarious

here, dude, you forgot your shirt
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#6092

Post by neonzx »

voxpopuluxe wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:29 pm
neonzx wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:06 am Casting call:
"STRAIGHTS NEED NOT APPLY"

This is where Russell's road takes us.
oh. my. god. i'm not surprised that someone around here would boo-hoo-hoo "straight oppression" in the "gay rights" thread, but i didn't think it would be so hilarious

here, dude, you forgot your shirt
All I did was flip the words around of what Russell wants.

If you don't see it as the same, that's fine.

Russell is advocating discrimination based on 'sexual orientation'. He perhaps meant well with his comments, but he didn't think through perhaps that he is kicking dirt in the face of all the straight allies (including many straight actors) who have helped advance society and acceptance and tolerance.

For me? I'm not going to disrespect those allies.
"Hey, thanks for your help with that thing before but I don't need you anymore... see ya!"
:nope: That ain't happening.


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#6093

Post by voxpopuluxe »

neonzx wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:05 pm For me? I'm not going to disrespect those allies.
i sincerely hope the heterosexuals appreciate your solidarity with them. :clap:


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#6094

Post by RoadScholar »

Excellent, dedicated actors intensely study real people who are "part of communities that they will be representing and have personal first hand knowledge of the(ir) history and struggles."

I guarantee you a top-notch actor can portray someone from those groups better than folks with "personal first hand knowledge" who are not good at acting.

Lewis Black was involved in a TV project based on his own stand-up comedy. He auditioned for the role of himself, and was turned down because someone else did a better audition as him! He was nonplussed to say the least, but that's the way of entertainment. Authentic experience is not a reliable indicator of an authentic-seeming portrayal.


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#6095

Post by Estiveo »

voxpopuluxe wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:44 pm
neonzx wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:05 pm For me? I'm not going to disrespect those allies.
i sincerely hope the heterosexuals appreciate your solidarity with them. :clap:
As one of the other resident homma sekshuls hereabouts, I'm with Neon on this one. Seriously, vox, you are not the arbiter of all things fabulous, and you tend to get nasty when someone disagrees with you. Maybe lighten up a skosh and give that chip on your shoulder the day off now and then.


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#6096

Post by neeneko »

neonzx wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:05 pm Russell is advocating discrimination based on 'sexual orientation'. He perhaps meant well with his comments, but he didn't think through perhaps that he is kicking dirt in the face of all the straight allies (including many straight actors) who have helped advance society and acceptance and tolerance.
There is a huge difference between deciding to set aside resources for a minority group and 'discrimination'.... and I would not exactly call it 'dirt kicking' when one is talking about reserving a small number of roles for a group that has a more direct and personal connection to the subject matter. What kind of 'ally' feels slighted if their dominant demographic group just happens to not always get the choicest roles? Given that the vast majority of roles are for cishet people, it isn't like there is a shortage or impactful professional disadvantage.


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#6097

Post by neeneko »

RoadScholar wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:47 pm Excellent, dedicated actors intensely study real people who are "part of communities that they will be representing and have personal first hand knowledge of the(ir) history and struggles."

I guarantee you a top-notch actor can portray someone from those groups better than folks with "personal first hand knowledge" who are not good at acting.
This is the same reasoning I hear in minority outreach in hiring in my own industry. 'You can't hire the best unless you give white people/men/whatever the same chance'.

The thing about top notch acting? Just like most fields, what separates the top people isn't that they are orders of magnitude better, or even better.. it is the limited number of top positions and the power of personal branding. Acting is like any other industry, and the top people just happening to also be from the top demographic group is not because that group is inherently better and thus meritocracy has correctly split them.


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#6098

Post by bob »

neeneko wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:12 pmThe thing about top notch acting? Just like most fields, what separates the top people isn't that they are orders of magnitude better, or even better.. it is the limited number of top positions and the power of personal branding.
Too also: superlative acting, entertainment that makes money, and winning awards are all distinct achievements (that occasionally overlap).

Even in the lowest tiers of the business, reliability often is as much of a consideration as talent.


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#6099

Post by wavey davey »

bob wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:18 pm Even in the lowest tiers of the business, reliability often is as much of a consideration as talent.
That is SO true.

I am the leader of a 5 person band. It's a bit like being the coach of a football team. People come and go, or might not be available for a specific gig, so I have to maintain several options for the players. Some are more talented, but less reliable. Others are the opposite. Guess which ones I prefer to work with?


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#6100

Post by neonzx »

If I concede to Russell's opinion... in exchange, can I haz Neil Patrick Harris as my co-lead in our next amateur theater production? :think: :daydream: :blink:


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