Chauvin Jury deliberation poll

[Maybenaut]

In theory, an appellate court find reversible error. And that the error was attributable to the state, such that double jeopardy would apply.

In theory.

It’s not universally true that an appellate court “can’t just decide he’s not guilty.”

At least one state (Texas?) has factual sufficiency review. And we have it in the military. We get to argue that the evidence, even if legally sufficient, is not factually sufficient. The Court of Criminal Appeals can weigh the credibility of witnesses. They don’t defer to the trial court; they only take into consideration that they did not see or hear the testimony.

And, even in states that don't allow such review, if an appeals court rules that, as a matter of law, the facts of the crime do not meet the criteria for the charge the defendant was convicted of, and the state chose to not charge a lesser, included offense, then the defendant can't be retried, due to double jeopardy.

That, in effect, would set the defendant free.

I think that, in the Chauvin case, the prosecutors tried to make their case as appeal-proof as possible. If an appeals court reverses the 2nd degree murder conviction, he can still be sentenced for the 3rd degree murder charge.

Not necessarily. It would depend on the nature of the error. If the greater offense has four elements and the lesser offense has three, and the failure of proof involved that extra element, the appellate court could (depending on that State’s rules), affirm the lesser included offense.

[Tiredretiredlawyer]

Many of us thought we had turned a corner when Obama was elected president. I remember how I never felt more proud of the United States than I did that night after it became clear that Obama had won the election. Sadly, it didn't take long for the backlash. I totally expect serious and violent backlash. But we cannot let that stop the momentum. It's time to clean up our police departments. Lots and lots of bad apples need to be removed from police departments all across this nation. I love all the people who are threatening that lots of police might resign. Good. The kind that would resign because of accountability are the kind we need to get rid of. So, I say let the resignations begin. They are not going to come soon enough for me.

[Tiredretiredlawyer]

As I have mentioned previously, I see the racists and white nationalist ideologies as a disease/virus/infection that is in the throughs of dying. What we have been experiencing since Obama is that the disease is seeing its demise and is lashing out, attempting to strike back on its final breaths (take a look at dying organizations/clubs from time to time and see what looks like a resurgence but with nastiness just before it collapses). It is also, in many ways, traveling the stages of grief. They see the end coming and are desperate to hold on to what they think they have known (people like to pick the deadly path because it seems old and comfortable instead of the new that brings them to a new life).

I have been poo-poo'd for this in the past as some see it as racism and hate coming back. Yes, it tries but it has not yet succeeded and with each new attempt, they lose more.
Much more work is necessary, but never forget, the march continues to go forward. Freedom and liberty continue to win out over fear and hate. Always remember to stick your head briefly out of the trench, to see all that has been accomplished so far, and then press on.

You are singing my song or playing the accompani..., the accompiana...., the organ in the church of racism is dying.

[Kendra]

Watched a bit of Fox this morning. They're really struggling with their narrative on the verdict. I *think* they're saying we leftists are happy with the verdict because now there's no rioting and looting and burning (Kilmeade and Hegseth seemed unhappy about that turn of events).

You can get some samples here: https://twitter.com/revrrlewis

[Kendra]

https://twitter. com/atrupar/status/1384688301962141697

What a total asshole

Yes. He. Is.

[Phoenix520]

Off Topic

Because I’ve been working with Foogie for so long, I’ve caught the Anal Language Weenie disease.

Northland, the word is spelled ‘throes’.
noun
intense or violent pain and struggle, especially accompanying birth, death, or great change.
"he convulsed in his death throes"

It’s a song I sing, too: a long view, full of hope. Apologies for weenieing on it.

Love, Kate

[noblepa]

It’s not universally true that an appellate court “can’t just decide he’s not guilty.”

At least one state (Texas?) has factual sufficiency review. And we have it in the military. We get to argue that the evidence, even if legally sufficient, is not factually sufficient. The Court of Criminal Appeals can weigh the credibility of witnesses. They don’t defer to the trial court; they only take into consideration that they did not see or hear the testimony.

And, even in states that don't allow such review, if an appeals court rules that, as a matter of law, the facts of the crime do not meet the criteria for the charge the defendant was convicted of, and the state chose to not charge a lesser, included offense, then the defendant can't be retried, due to double jeopardy.

That, in effect, would set the defendant free.

I think that, in the Chauvin case, the prosecutors tried to make their case as appeal-proof as possible. If an appeals court reverses the 2nd degree murder conviction, he can still be sentenced for the 3rd degree murder charge.

Not necessarily. It would depend on the nature of the error. If the greater offense has four elements and the lesser offense has three, and the failure of proof involved that extra element, the appellate court could (depending on that State’s rules), affirm the lesser included offense.

All of that is perfectly true. There are so many possible scenarios that it is difficult to generalize.

I was just trying to make the point that, had the prosecution not charged Chauvin the way they did, there is the possibility in some bizarre circumstance, that the appeals court could reverse the conviction on grounds and for reasons that would preclude a retrial. Or, depending on exactly what the appeals court found lacking in the trial, a retrial might be futile.

I realize that such rulings are somewhat rare. Usually, the appeals court simply sets aside the conviction and remands the case to the lower court for retrial, but there are circumstances in which a retrial is not possible, due to double jeopardy, so the defendant must be released. I don't think that this will happen in this case.

[Slim Cognito]

Watched a bit of Fox this morning. They're really struggling with their narrative on the verdict. I *think* they're saying we leftists are happy with the verdict because now there's no rioting and looting and burning (Kilmeade and Hegseth seemed unhappy about that turn of events).

You can get some samples here: https://twitter.com/revrrlewis

You know they were praying not just for an acquittal, but for Mnpls to burn to the ground. Anything to get the story off the insurrection, even if people died.

[Kendra]

Watched a bit of Fox this morning. They're really struggling with their narrative on the verdict. I *think* they're saying we leftists are happy with the verdict because now there's no rioting and looting and burning (Kilmeade and Hegseth seemed unhappy about that turn of events).

You can get some samples here: https://twitter.com/revrrlewis

You know they were praying not just for an acquittal, but for Mnpls to burn to the ground. Anything to get the story off the insurrection, even if people died.

Yep

[bob]

[LM K]

For historical reference.

That is despicable. I'm absolutely disgusted by that.

Thank dog the video was already viral when this was published.

[LM K]

Many of us thought we had turned a corner when Obama was elected president. I remember how I never felt more proud of the United States than I did that night after it became clear that Obama had won the election. Sadly, it didn't take long for the backlash. I totally expect serious and violent backlash. But we cannot let that stop the momentum. It's time to clean up our police departments. Lots and lots of bad apples need to be removed from police departments all across this nation. I love all the people who are threatening that lots of police might resign. Good. The kind that would resign because of accountability are the kind we need to get rid of. So, I say let the resignations begin. They are not going to come soon enough for me.

Exactly. Any cop that thinks she or he must resign because the justice system did it's job can't be part of the justice system and absolutely can't be trusted with a gun.

The average person who saw the video and thinks that Chauvin was right to do what he did ... racist and hateful people.

I went to Breitbart yesterday just after the verdict. I almost never go to that site. The comments were straight out of the white extremist's handbook. It was disgusting.

[Annrc]

Totally agree LM K. I also went to Breitbart. The division in our country is unbelievable. The remarks are devastating and disgusting.

[zekeb]

Every cop who thinks he/she is entitled to mete out curbside justice should resign or be fired. Chauvin proclaimed himself to be judge, jury and executioner.

[Maybenaut]

[

I realize that such rulings are somewhat rare. Usually, the appeals court simply sets aside the conviction and remands the case to the lower court for retrial, but there are circumstances in which a retrial is not possible, due to double jeopardy, so the defendant must be released. I don't think that this will happen in this case.

I don’t either. As I understand it, the way it was charged, the third degree murder was not a lesser included offense of the second degree murder because each had an element that the other did not. The 2nd degree charge required the state to prove a felony (in this case, assault), and the 3rd degree charge required the state to prove “act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life,” which it did not have to prove for 2nd degree. So if the appellate court throws out the 2nd degree murder charge, the 3rd degree charge could still possibly stand (maybe, depending).

I think it’s possible that the manslaughter charge might be a lesser included offense of the 3rd degree murder charge, but I don’t know enough about the Minnesota criminal statutes to say definitively.

[p0rtia]

Watched a bit of Fox this morning. They're really struggling with their narrative on the verdict. I *think* they're saying we leftists are happy with the verdict because now there's no rioting and looting and burning (Kilmeade and Hegseth seemed unhappy about that turn of events).

You can get some samples here: https://twitter.com/revrrlewis

You know they were praying not just for an acquittal, but for Mnpls to burn to the ground. Anything to get the story off the insurrection, even if people died.

Yep

I read somewhere that Faux is claiming the Dems are happy because the conviction proved to them (the Dems) that rioting works. With this variation thrown at the wall to see if it sticks: the jury was afraid if they voted not guilty, they would be attacked by the mob.

R. DeSantis favors version 2.

[Kendra]

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/derek- ... 64d46e9c51

Derek Chauvin is in a restricted housing unit in prison for his safety

New mugshot at the link.

[sterngard friegen]

The look of white entitlement.

Incarcerated.

[p0rtia]

[LM K]

Chauvin had been crying before his mug shot. Think things are sinking in?

(I'm not implying that men shouldn't cry! Just an observation of Chauvin's emotional state.)

[zekeb]

It's too bad George can't come back from the dead and see Chauvin now.

[Frater I*I]

Chauvin proclaimed himself to be judge, jury and executioner.

I gotta disagree here, he didn't care about being judge or jury, just about being the executioner. He saw Floyd as subhuman.

[bill_g]

It's too bad George can't come back from the dead and see Chauvin now.

I'd be happy if Chauvin demonstrated his custody methods on George Zimmerman.

Lest we forget that Skittles are a deadly weapon.

[LM K]

Americans overwhelmingly approve of Chauvin guilty verdict

In the hours after a guilty verdict was announced in the murder trial of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin, an exclusive USA TODAY/Ipsos snap poll found Americans overwhelmingly approved of the jury's finding.

The survey found 71% of Americans agreed Chauvin was guilty, and most Americans surveyed followed at least some coverage of the three-week trial. When participants were identified by political affiliation, Democrats strongly concurred, at 85%, with Republicans at 55% and independents at 71%.

[Slim Cognito]

55% of Republicans? Wow!