Military Mischief

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ZekeB
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Re: Military Mischief

#426

Post by ZekeB »

“Relieved of command” probably describes it more accurately.
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Re: Military Mischief

#427

Post by Maybenaut »

Maybenaut wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:12 pm
Well, now, here's something you don't see every day.
The Washington Post wrote: In rare spectacle, Army court-martials a retired general

The U.S. Army will do something this weekend it has done only four other times since the Truman administration — drag a general into a military courtroom to face criminal charges.

James J. Grazioplene, 68, a retired major general from Gainesville, Va., is being court-martialed on charges that he raped a child over a six-year period while he was on active duty in the 1980s, according to Army officials and court documents.
I do have a slight nit to pick with the article, though. It says he "is being court-martialed." But the hearing that he faces is to determine whether he should be court-martialed. It is yet to be decided whether he will be.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 07ccb198a2
Circling back to something we discussed a while back (this was the guy who was being tried in his retired status, and as a result was wearing civilian clothes at all the hearings).

Anyhoo... Charges have been dismissed on statute of limitations grounds.

Kind of convoluted, but here goes:

The statute of limitations under the UCMJ for all crimes was five years, unless the "authorized punishment" was death, in which case there was no statute of limitations.

The authorized punishment for rape, whether of an adult or a child, was "death."

The Supreme Court, in Coker v. Georgia, 433 U.S. 584, 598 (1977), said that the death penalty for rape that did not result in the death of the victim was unconstitutional inasmuch as it was cruel and unusual punishment under the Eighth Amendment. The same was true for the rape of a child where the rape did not result in the death of the child. Kennedy v. Louisiana, 554 U.S. 407 (2008).

The Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces recently held, in United States v. Mahangas, 77 M.J. 220 (C.A.A.F. 2018) that, despite the language in Article 120, UCMJ, authorizing "death" as a punishment, death was not an actual authorized punishment for rape that did not result in the death of the victim.

So, the military judge in Grazioplene's case dismissed the charges.

The ruling in Mahangas is only going to affect a limited number of cases. Congress amended the statute of limitations in the UCMJ to say that there is no longer any statute of limitations with respect to rape or sexual assault of an adult or a child.
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Re: Military Mischief

#428

Post by Maybenaut »

Maybenaut wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:44 pm
Maybenaut wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:12 pm
Well, now, here's something you don't see every day.
The Washington Post wrote: In rare spectacle, Army court-martials a retired general

The U.S. Army will do something this weekend it has done only four other times since the Truman administration — drag a general into a military courtroom to face criminal charges.

James J. Grazioplene, 68, a retired major general from Gainesville, Va., is being court-martialed on charges that he raped a child over a six-year period while he was on active duty in the 1980s, according to Army officials and court documents.
I do have a slight nit to pick with the article, though. It says he "is being court-martialed." But the hearing that he faces is to determine whether he should be court-martialed. It is yet to be decided whether he will be.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 07ccb198a2
Circling back to something we discussed a while back (this was the guy who was being tried in his retired status, and as a result was wearing civilian clothes at all the hearings).

Anyhoo... Charges have been dismissed on statute of limitations grounds.

Kind of convoluted, but here goes:

The statute of limitations under the UCMJ for all crimes was five years, unless the "authorized punishment" was death, in which case there was no statute of limitations.

The authorized punishment for rape, whether of an adult or a child, was "death."

The Supreme Court, in Coker v. Georgia, 433 U.S. 584, 598 (1977), said that the death penalty for rape that did not result in the death of the victim was unconstitutional inasmuch as it was cruel and unusual punishment under the Eighth Amendment. The same was true for the rape of a child where the rape did not result in the death of the child. Kennedy v. Louisiana, 554 U.S. 407 (2008).

The Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces recently held, in United States v. Mahangas, 77 M.J. 220 (C.A.A.F. 2018) that, despite the language in Article 120, UCMJ, authorizing "death" as a punishment, death was not an actual authorized punishment for rape that did not result in the death of the victim.

So, the military judge in Grazioplene's case dismissed the charges.

The ruling in Mahangas is only going to affect a limited number of cases. Congress amended the statute of limitations in the UCMJ to say that there is no longer any statute of limitations with respect to rape or sexual assault of an adult or a child.
ETA link to Army Times article: https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-arm ... my-2-star/
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Re: Military Mischief

#429

Post by Maybenaut »

Dumbass sergeant takes the oath of enlistment with a dinosaur puppet on her hand. Dumbass colonel lets her do it. Sergeant loses her full-time (I'm assuming civilian) position with the TN Air National Guard, and faces other administrative sanction. Colonel gets "demoted and immediately retired" (things happen fast in the TN Air National Guard, apparently -- in the regular Air Force, the retirement grade determination takes some time). Senior NCO videotaping the retirement ceremony has been relieved of duties as unit First Sergeant, but will remain in the National Guard.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/che ... 9cb2cca1b6

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... pet-video/
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Re: Military Mischief

#430

Post by RVInit »

Maybenaut wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:33 pm
Dumbass sergeant takes the oath of enlistment with a dinosaur puppet on her hand. Dumbass colonel lets her do it. Sergeant loses her full-time (I'm assuming civilian) position with the TN Air National Guard, and faces other administrative sanction. Colonel gets "demoted and immediately retired" (things happen fast in the TN Air National Guard, apparently -- in the regular Air Force, the retirement grade determination takes some time). Senior NCO videotaping the retirement ceremony has been relieved of duties as unit First Sergeant, but will remain in the National Guard.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/che ... 9cb2cca1b6

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... pet-video/
That video is really hard to watch. As a member of a family with long ties to the military it really hurt to see this person disrespect the oath. Good riddance, they don't belong in any form of service.
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Re: Military Mischief

#431

Post by Notorial Dissent »

I think they pretty well doubled down on the career ending stupid. The whole ceremony thing was embarrassingly stupid and inappropriate, but then actually filming it was icing on the cake Just appalling.
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Re: Military Mischief

#432

Post by Maybenaut »

RVInit wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:31 pm

That video is really hard to watch. As a member of a family with long ties to the military it really hurt to see this person disrespect the oath. Good riddance, they don't belong in any form of service.
I didn’t watch the video. The still photo was nauseating enough.
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Re: Military Mischief

#433

Post by Sam the Centipede »

Even if one doesn't care a fig about the oath and the ceremonial aspects, the action shows a level of misjudgment and a lack of insight that should be grounds enough for dismissal for gross stupidity (yes, I know that's not A Thing). How could any of the participants think this could end well?

And there's the respect thing: as far as I am concerned, a church or a temple is just an interesting building, not a sacred place. But if I go in one, I will doff my hat and behave in a quiet, dignified manner. In the same way, even if an individual thinks the oath-taking ceremony is a nonsense, it is still appropriate to respect something that others care deeply about.

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Re: Military Mischief

#434

Post by RVInit »

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:20 pm
Even if one doesn't care a fig about the oath and the ceremonial aspects, the action shows a level of misjudgment and a lack of insight that should be grounds enough for dismissal for gross stupidity (yes, I know that's not A Thing). How could any of the participants think this could end well?

And there's the respect thing: as far as I am concerned, a church or a temple is just an interesting building, not a sacred place. But if I go in one, I will doff my hat and behave in a quiet, dignified manner. In the same way, even if an individual thinks the oath-taking ceremony is a nonsense, it is still appropriate to respect something that others care deeply about.
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Re: Military Mischief

#435

Post by optimusprime »

RVInit wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:18 pm
Sam the Centipede wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:20 pm
Even if one doesn't care a fig about the oath and the ceremonial aspects, the action shows a level of misjudgment and a lack of insight that should be grounds enough for dismissal for gross stupidity (yes, I know that's not A Thing). How could any of the participants think this could end well?

And there's the respect thing: as far as I am concerned, a church or a temple is just an interesting building, not a sacred place. But if I go in one, I will doff my hat and behave in a quiet, dignified manner. In the same way, even if an individual thinks the oath-taking ceremony is a nonsense, it is still appropriate to respect something that others care deeply about.
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Re: Military Mischief

#436

Post by Maybenaut »

Airman with top-secret clearance, who disappeared in 1983, is found living in California.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... 1d98a60ee0
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Re: Military Mischief

#437

Post by Mary Quite Contrary »

Maybenaut wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:35 am
Airman with top-secret clearance, who disappeared in 1983, is found living in California.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... 1d98a60ee0
This is crazy. What will happen to him now? I mean legally speaking. Would he only have issues with the Air Force or the US government too?
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Re: Military Mischief

#438

Post by Notorial Dissent »

I saw this the other evening, of all the odd I've seen the last few years this one is. right up there. I can't wait to hear details/reasons for this one. He just walked off?? ought to be entertaining.
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Re: Military Mischief

#439

Post by kate520 »

When it comes time to decide his punishment, will they consider that he had TS clearance but did nothing with it to harm the US?
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Re: Military Mischief

#440

Post by Mary Quite Contrary »

I just can’t figure out how his TS clearance comes into play. It does seem like it should be important but how would we know if he did anything with it. Also, too the investigation will take forever to unravel.

Obviously, with withdrawing a crazy amount of money then disappearing will show premeditation. I can only imagine what all he can be charged with.

Does this all start with some sort of court Marshall or whatever it’s called in the AF? My IANAL is showing.
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Re: Military Mischief

#441

Post by ZekeB »

Geez, he was an officer. He was a captain, which means he had at least four years of active service. Probably more. All he had to do was resign. At most he would have been required to serve for a couple of years in the reserves.
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Re: Military Mischief

#442

Post by neeneko »

Mary Quite Contrary wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:37 am
I just can’t figure out how his TS clearance comes into play. It does seem like it should be important but how would we know if he did anything with it. Also, too the investigation will take forever to unravel.
If I understand the story correctly, this particular missing person was implicated in various potential acts of sabotage and such. At the time people were 'guessing' that he was kidnapped or defected to Russia and his secret knowledge was being used to undermine various project. I gather this was mostly public-imagination, but it does mean that his overall story involves his clearance and work.

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Re: Military Mischief

#443

Post by Maybenaut »

Mary Quite Contrary wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:37 am
I just can’t figure out how his TS clearance comes into play. It does seem like it should be important but how would we know if he did anything with it. Also, too the investigation will take forever to unravel.

Obviously, with withdrawing a crazy amount of money then disappearing will show premeditation. I can only imagine what all he can be charged with.

Does this all start with some sort of court Marshall or whatever it’s called in the AF? My IANAL is showing.
They thought he may have defected to the Soviets. He apparently had all kinds of knowledge about classified rocket systems that would’ve been a significant interest to the Soviets.

He will be charged with desertion. There’s three types. The first is desertion with the intent to remain away permanently (This is what this guy will probably be charged with).

The other two types involve Intent to avoid hazardous duty or shirk important service (that’s what Bergdahl was charged with), And enlisting in another armed force without being properly separated from the Armed Forces you are already a part of (which happens more often than you might think).

In response to Kate’s question about there not being any harm by the United States, I think the government would beg to differ. Anytime a guy with a high security clearance and access to classified information deserts, the government spins into high gear to figure out whether he took anything, and whether he may have provided anything to a foreign government. I think it’s likely that they may not know the answers to those questions, so to be on the safe side they’ll just presume that everything is compromised. That costs a great deal of time and effort and money.

So what typically happens in these cases is they recall the guy back to active duty, place him in pre-trial confinement (because he has pretty much guaranteed that he is a flight risk), And then in all likelihood he will plead guilty. He may work out a deal with the convening authority for a reduced sentence.

The way that works Is he’ll plead guilty, then both sides will try to convince the judge of what they think the appropriate sentence ought to be, then the judge will hand down a sentence. If the deal with the convening authority is for a shorter sentence, then he gets the shorter sentence. If the deal is for a longer sentence, then he still gets the shorter sentence. In other words, the guy gets the better of either the agreed punishment or the adjudged punishment.

I think letting the government assume that he had defected is really going to work against him. I have a very difficult time believing he didn’t know that that is what they thought had happened. I imagine if he’s stayed out of trouble, and has been a positive contribution to society, that may mitigate it somewhat. But dude is likely toast.
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Notorial Dissent
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Re: Military Mischief

#444

Post by Notorial Dissent »

As you say, I would expect the military (AFOSI??) at the time would have assumed hat at the very least he ha deserted and at the worst defected or was a spy(more likely). I would assume that there would have been a thorough investigation at the time, the paranoia (justified) being what it was. It will be VERY interesting to see what the reports of the time said.
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Re: Military Mischief

#445

Post by Foggy »

If he was 33 in '83, he's 67 or 68 today. Does that affect his liability? :think:
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Re: Military Mischief

#446

Post by Maybenaut »

Nope.
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Re: Military Mischief

#447

Post by Foggy »

Thanks, girlfriend. What an odd duck!
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Re: Military Mischief

#448

Post by kate520 »

Foggy, those of us of a certain age remember El Grosso Nuggat in real life as he besoiled himself avoiding the draft, at the same time as El Gordo was stricken with those terrible bone spurs. I knew one guy who starved himself for weeks before his draft appointment, could barely walk in by himself. We heard about one man who walked in smoking a huge joint. Didn't work, though. One man I dated, and shared a birthdate* with, was granted permission for alternative service. He joined the Catholic Carpenters Union and went to Georgia to build homes for the poor instead. Do you remember the story about the kid who said he was abducted by aliens and when he came to, he was in Canada with temporary amnesia. :P

I'm not sure this guy qualifies as odd.


* His/our draft # was 4. It's one of the many times in my adult life I've been grateful for my gender.
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Re: Military Mischief

#449

Post by Maybenaut »

kate520 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:49 pm

* His/our draft # was 4. It's one of the many times in my adult life I've been grateful for my gender.
One of my law school classmates was going on to an obnoxious degree about how too few women were “real” feminists, and “real” feminists would take up the fight, even at their own peril (she was talking about risking their jobs). I asked her if she ever attempted to register for selective service, or ever even wrote to her congressional representatives about how the government discriminates against both women *and* men in only requiring men to register. Crickets.

Not judging you, Kate — just your story reminded me.
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Re: Military Mischief

#450

Post by Chilidog »

What gets me is that the only reason they caught him was that he applied for a passport.

Moron.

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