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Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

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LM K
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#401

Post by LM K »

The expert witness, while testifying for the defense under direct, just said that some with 75% blockage could have a perfectly normal life and be asymptomatic or might be symptomatic.

Major harm to defense. Nelson appeared to be quite shocked by that answer. It took him a minute to recover for his next question.
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RVInit
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#402

Post by RVInit »

Uh-oh. Methinks the prosecution is going to send this witness home crying, too.

https://theintercept.com/2021/04/04/der ... ton-black/
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#403

Post by Maybenaut »

As I’ve said, I haven’t watched any of this trial. But to convict on either the 2nd or 3rd degree murder charge, the State has to prove that Chauvin actually caused Floyd’s death. So it’s not unreasonable for the defense to suggest that there was some other cause.

Based upon what I’ve read here, it sounds like the State put on an exceptionally strong case that the death resulted from positional asphyxiation as a result of Chauvin’s actions. All this testimony about Floyd’s drug use and physical condition is relevant to the question of causation.

I’m not saying it will carry the day, but the defense has to play whatever crappy hand it has.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#404

Post by fierceredpanda »

Maybenaut wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:47 am As I’ve said, I haven’t watched any of this trial. But to convict on either the 2nd or 3rd degree murder charge, the State has to prove that Chauvin actually caused Floyd’s death. So it’s not unreasonable for the defense to suggest that there was some other cause.

Based upon what I’ve read here, it sounds like the State put on an exceptionally strong case that the death resulted from positional asphyxiation as a result of Chauvin’s actions. All this testimony about Floyd’s drug use and physical condition is relevant to the question of causation.

I’m not saying it will carry the day, but the defense has to play whatever crappy hand it has.
All good points. My problem with the defense position is that it ignores the question of proximate causation.

Suppose Floyd had a heart condition and was overdosing. I'm pretty sure Chauvin's knee on his neck didn't help, nor did his failure to render any aid when Floyd became unresponsive. The defense's argument appears to me to be analogous to someone coming upon a driver alive but with life-threatening injuries from a car accident, shooting the driver in the head, and then claiming they are innocent of homicide because the victim was going to die anyway. Both Chauvin and my hypothetical defendant are completely ignoring the obvious proximate cause of death in favor of a longer, slower threat to life, and insisting that the jury do so as well.

I mean, according to this theory of the defense, a police officer who, upon finding a person overdosing on heroin, deliberately administers cyanide instead of Narcan is guilty of nothing whatsoever. "They were going to die anyway, so I cannot be held legally responsible for killing them" is a legal absurdity and a moral travesty.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#405

Post by LM K »

:shock:

I had no idea that this doc used a 13 person panel for this case. I thought it has 3-4.

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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#406

Post by Maybenaut »

fierceredpanda wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:01 pm All good points. My problem with the defense position is that it ignores the question of proximate causation.

Suppose Floyd had a heart condition and was overdosing. I'm pretty sure Chauvin's knee on his neck didn't help, nor did his failure to render any aid when Floyd became unresponsive. The defense's argument appears to me to be analogous to someone coming upon a driver alive but with life-threatening injuries from a car accident, shooting the driver in the head, and then claiming they are innocent of homicide because the victim was going to die anyway. Both Chauvin and my hypothetical defendant are completely ignoring the obvious proximate cause of death in favor of a longer, slower threat to life, and insisting that the jury do so as well.

I mean, according to this theory of the defense, a police officer who, upon finding a person overdosing on heroin, deliberately administers cyanide instead of Narcan is guilty of nothing whatsoever. "They were going to die anyway, so I cannot be held legally responsible for killing them" is a legal absurdity and a moral travesty.
Oh, I quite agree. Like I said, the defense has a crappy hand. Assuming the defense team is competent, if they had a better hand, they’d play it.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#407

Post by tek »

so now we're talking about a study on someone who laid down under the exhaust of a car and died.

And what the concentration is near the exhaust pipe.

And talking about the exhaust CO concentration being deadly, as if Floyd was huffing car exhaust.

wtf?
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#408

Post by RVInit »

LM K wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:13 pm :shock:

I had no idea that this doc used a 13 person panel for this case. I thought it has 3-4.

He never said any of them affirmatively agreed with his conclusions. It's one thing to have used their information or input and another that any of them agreed with any of his conclusions.

That said, I totally agree with Stern about the fact that any juror who needs a straw to grasp at to acquit Chauvin has already been given those straws and this witness is giving them more.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#409

Post by LM K »

Maybenaut wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:47 am As I’ve said, I haven’t watched any of this trial. But to convict on either the 2nd or 3rd degree murder charge, the State has to prove that Chauvin actually caused Floyd’s death. So it’s not unreasonable for the defense to suggest that there was some other cause.

Based upon what I’ve read here, it sounds like the State put on an exceptionally strong case that the death resulted from positional asphyxiation as a result of Chauvin’s actions. All this testimony about Floyd’s drug use and physical condition is relevant to the question of causation.

I’m not saying it will carry the day, but the defense has to play whatever crappy hand it has.
All excellent points. Defense lawyers must present any possibile alternatives other than their clients actions/lack of actions. I see Nelson trying to argue that he probably would have died at some point, but he died because he took drugs when officers approached his car. But he didn't die of overdose. That has been clear from all the testimony I've seen so far. His symptoms during restraint were the opposite of a fentanyl overdose and he had a tiny amount of methamphetamine in his system. The defense hasn't been able to try to argue that he went into a methamphetamine overdose.

What it really boils down to is Chauvin refusing to move and render aid after Floyd had no pulse, imo. That guaranteed Floyd's death, and Chauvin knew better.

I do think the 2nd and 3rd degree murder charges are a crapshoot. I have a difficult time seeing Chauvin not found guilty of manslaughter. But juries are strange sometimes.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#410

Post by sugar magnolia »

The photo they showed with the "white object" in George Floyd's mouth was sort of weird to me. If I was the prosecution I'd have been objecting to that every time one of them said a word. My daughter posted a photo of the baby yesterday and the first 2 comments were about her "new tooth" which she doesn't have, but appears to in the photo.

And the day his doctor sent my husband to the ER with absolutely no symptoms, they discovered he had 85%. 85% and 95% blockage in his arteries and had triple bypass 4 days later. He had been going about his daily routine, including hiking and gardening and had zero symptoms of anything. It was a fluke they even caught it when they did, but it was so bad he wound up with 2 filters and part of his foot amputated within the next 6 months due to the plaques breaking off when they did the surgery. 75% blockage in one artery didn't kill George Floyd.

I also noticed the guy from South Africa starts his answers with "So...." just like the locals do.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#411

Post by RVInit »

And there it is. The moment this doctor had to admit that Floyd was sandwiched between the pavement and Chauvin's body.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#412

Post by RVInit »

Witness is slumping to his side while prosecutor is asking questions. His demeanor is becoming less and less confident. And this cross exam has barely started.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#413

Post by Jim »

Chauvin Defense Witness Faces Lawsuit of His Own Over Death of Black Teenager in Police Custody
Nearly two years before George Floyd was pinned under the knee of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin, Anton Black was pinned to the ground by police outside his home in Greensboro, Maryland.

On September 15, 2018, body camera footage captured the 19-year-old struggling under the weight of multiple officers, laboring to breathe and crying out for his mother.

Black’s mother watched her son die in front of her. He used his last breaths to shout “I love you.”

Dr. David Fowler, who was the chief medical examiner of Maryland for nearly two decades, classified Black’s death as an accident. Now, he is an expert witness for Chauvin’s defense and is expected to offer testimony as to how Floyd died last year.

The forensic pathologist, who resigned from Maryland’s medical examiner office in 2019, is one of several parties being sued by the Black family for wrongful death and civil rights violations. The lawsuit, filed in federal court in December, alleges that Fowler “covered up and obscured police responsibility for Anton Black’s death.”
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#414

Post by LM K »

Fowler's body language during cross is fascinating. He isn't angry or hostile but he appears frustrated and tired. He doesn't like having his assessment challenged.

I'm happy to expand if anyone wants me to.

I'm going all Ms Shrinky Lady right now. :oldlady:

Fowler did only a PubMed search for finding research studies for his research. :doh: There are much better search tools for any scientific field. My nursing students don't rely solely on PubMed. This is inexcusable.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#415

Post by sterngard friegen »

Jerry Blackwell is an elite lawyer.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#416

Post by filly »

sterngard friegen wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:40 pm Jerry Blackwell is an elite lawyer.
It’s why he’s almost as rich ss you
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#417

Post by sterngard friegen »

filly wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:45 pm
sterngard friegen wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:40 pm Jerry Blackwell is an elite lawyer.
It’s why he’s almost as rich as you
:fingerwag:
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#418

Post by RVInit »

I agree, this witness is slumping more and more as time goes by, almost as if he's trying to make himself smaller, less noticeable. He is getting eviscerated. Just like the other witnesses, he's having to admit to pretty much everything Mr Blackwell wants him to admit to and refute pretty much everything Mr Blackwell wants him to refute.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#419

Post by sugar magnolia »

LM K wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:29 pm Fowler's body language during cross is fascinating. He isn't angry or hostile but he appears frustrated and tired. He doesn't like having his assessment challenged.

I'm happy to expand if anyone wants me to.

I'm going all Ms Shrinky Lady right now. :oldlady:

Fowler did only a PubMed search for finding research studies for his research. :doh: There are much better search tools for any scientific field. My nursing students don't rely solely on PubMed. This is inexcusable.
Yes! Please. And you could comment on that face resting on the hand with index finger extended while furrowing his brow, too, and why it takes him a full minute at times to reply with a simple yes or no.

I was so hoping Blackwell would ask him why, if fentanyl slowed his breathing, but Fowler testified he expected his breathing to be 33, he still stood by his opinion that he was on drugs. Blackwell got him to say he expected to see an increase in respiration, but didn't follow up on it.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#420

Post by RVInit »

My sense of the entire testimony of today's defense witness is the defense is just throwing as many strands of spaghetti on the wall, hoping at least one juror will grasp one of them. Unfortunately, I do think that will happen.

I think he's taking too many chances with pointing out that Floyd was already saying he can't breathe while he was struggling in the car. Wouldn't that make it even more awful that these officers then commenced to put him into a position that they were trained could cause asphyxia? And even after hearing the crowd telling them he's not breathing anymore they fail to try to help him and Chauvin's only real reaction is to smirk.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#421

Post by sugar magnolia »

How in the hell could Nelson not know the answer to his question about the anoxic seizure being "violent" and then give the doctor a chance to expound enough to compare it to the flailing around of a grand mal?
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#422

Post by Lani »

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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#423

Post by RVInit »

Does anyone know what is going on with the Chauvin trial today? Did the defense rest? I think I remember from yesterday (only could listen intermittently) that the judge was going to give the prosecution time to get rebuttal together. Is that what is happening now?
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#424

Post by Kendra »

I'm unclear as well, but Chauvin did say he's not going to testify. It looks like prosecution/judge are hammering out calling in some expert on the carbon monoxide brought up yesterday.

Oh, headline/chryon (sp?) says defense rested.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#425

Post by Volkonski »



ABC News
@ABC
JUST IN: Derek Chauvin, ex-officer charged in death of George Floyd, tells presiding judge he has decided not to testify in his own defense.

The development comes as the defense prepares to rest its case.

https://t.co/RKMfCoYwxs?amp=1
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