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Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

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RVInit
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#351

Post by RVInit »

Admits this photo could be a use of force.

Now, positional asphyxia - you are familiar with this, you have taught it - is it true that it's a result of oxygen depravation, inability of the lungs to expand. And can be a result of having your body on the ground in prone position. He admits it could, just the body weight itself without additional pressure.

Admits again it's possible. Also that restraint, cuffed behind the back, additional weight can caus epositional asphyxia. He admits it could. More pressure given, more chance of asphyxia,witness agrees.

he's already changed his testimony at this point.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#352

Post by fierceredpanda »

Every time this witness (Barry Brodd) smiles, I think to myself, "Yeah, I'd smile like that, too, if I was getting paid handsomely to sell my bullshit in court." His "prone restraint isn't a use-of-force" answer on direct was so ludicrous I'm surprised there wasn't laughter in the courtroom.
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RVInit
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#353

Post by RVInit »

At what point did you become aware of dangers of PA. 30 years. Is it commonly understood, known risk? Yes, not new information.

Ways to mitigate are known to law enforcement. Describe the side recovery position. You have also been a defensive tactics instructor. Are you aware of how someone might put someone in ths position. Admits it's simple, quick to do, and alleviates the danger of PA.

Witness not looking as confident or happy at this point.

Are you aware of how Minneapolis PD defines use of force? No, not generally. Now admitting that MPD may have a policy that defnes what Chauvin did was use of force.

Admits Chauvin's actions fit within definition of use of force and that police officers should follow policies of their department.

:shock: :shock: :shock:
There's a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality.
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RVInit
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#354

Post by RVInit »

Now getting into severity of crime. Not as important as the underlying conduct in the crime. In this case the misdemeanor of assault if more serious than writing a bad check or passing a fake bill.

Witness is aware that Floyd's crime was a relatively low level in terms of use of force. It's on the less serious side. Yes, but then says resistance adds to it.

The activities of the subject is the operative importat facts? Yes

Let's take a look at the imminence of the threat. Can you explain what you mean by a threat?

You can't see their hands, the way they angle their body, that could be a threat. Prosecutor has both hands in pockets wants to know if he is a threat.

Difference between a threat and a risk? Admits yes. Would you agree a threat is when the suspect is showing some kind of intention to do somethin? Admits officers cannot use force when they simply think there is a risk. It has to be a threat.

You can't use force just because a person is large. Use of drugs - on that subject of what a reasonable officer knows about drugs - there is a whole range of drugs and drug users. Some drugs can cause aggressive and some cause person to become sedate. So just hearing they are "on something" that is not a threat, right? If there is behavior is the answer. Now he's tryign to backtrack I think, realizes he answered badly.

One manifestation of drug use is a person is passed out - does that represent a threat? No. Admits that just because someone is "on something" does not justify the use of force. Admits there has to be a behavior by the subject.
There's a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#355

Post by LM K »

I'm quite agaust and disturbed that Brodd is still teaching about use of force. In fact, it's terrifying that he's training officers.
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RVInit
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#356

Post by RVInit »

Decision to use force does not depend on some third party - its' whether the subject is threatening. Admits this. Admits someone else threatening does not allow use of force against someone else.

Oh this is getting good. Prosecution is breaking him down pretty well.

He's admitted yes to every point the prosecutor has made so far.

Situational awareness - important to everyone, especially an officer. Has to include all the facts and circumstances presented to the officer. In looking at the behavior of the person upon who force is being applied, need to know what subject is doing. If subject is compliant or showing a medical cnditaion officer needs to take that into consideration.


doe he agree, in your custody, in your care? yes. Does it include being aware of subjects medical condition, such as loss of consciousness, loss of pulse.

Should use of force be reasonable at beginning, end, and all points in between. Must de-escalate when threat is no longer there. Witness agrees.
There's a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality.
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RVInit
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#357

Post by RVInit »

You agree that cornerstone of MPD is sanctity of life? Yes.

Did you receive a copy of the use of force manual? Yes, In your study did you see the phrase one upmanship anywhere in the policy? No. Witness says he used one upmanship to describe proportionality. What is limit? If person tries to strike or kick, officer can use impact weapon or tazer. Strike you, stab you, shoot you.

Isn't officer always limited by Graham vs Conner standards? True. It must be objectively reasonable? Yes, And that is why someone who is complying can't have any force at all against him. Witness disagrees. Reminds him he agreed that he force we say could produce pain. And that it is not justified if the person is not resisting. Witness admits.

Officer must reassess and may include information from subject and from fellow officers commenting about state of the subject (I'm sure he's talking about the loss of pulse here)

You agree that there was no stabbing shooting attempt by Floyd. Yes.

Would you agree he was handcuffed prone for 9 mins 29 seconds. Did you note any significant different in Chauvin's restraint? No. Did you notice any different in Floyd? Yes

Now going over the timeline of restraint. A composite of King body cam and Frasier video. Beginning of restraint period.

You are aware that defendant took a significant amount of training? Yes
There's a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#358

Post by LM K »

Brodd is on cross. He looks quite upset and like he wishes the ground would open and he'd be suck into oblivion. He really doesn't want to be there.

Something that's interesting is that Brodd is the best the defense could get. Brodd is getting shredded by the prosecution.
"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
From "Take the Money and Run"
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RVInit
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#359

Post by RVInit »

This witness has changed his mind about lots of his direct testimony.

I kind of wish he'd talk about how Chauvin made sure not to touch the car at all. That's why he has one hand on his thigh. It helps him put more weight on Floyd.

Witness admits his foot is off the ground at some point, which would tend to put more weight on Floyd's back. He says it's "possible." Now trying to say Floyd's movement forced Chauvin's foot off the ground. It clearly didn't.
There's a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#360

Post by LM K »

Great Twitter coverage by BBC journalist Sean Dilley.

@seandilleyNEWS
"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
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RVInit
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#361

Post by RVInit »

LM K wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:09 pm Great Twitter coverage by BBC journalist Sean Dilley.

@seandilleyNEWS
:thumbsup:
There's a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality.
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RVInit
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#362

Post by RVInit »

OMG. The HLN experts are all agreeing me that this witness is destroyed. Virtually every single point he made was systematically dismantled and he changed his answers.

The guy looks destroyed. He seemed so confident and wonderful on direct, I was a little concerned. He testified for the officer in the Laquan McDonald case, too.
There's a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#363

Post by sugar magnolia »

Oh lordy....this guy is getting eviscerated by the prosecution. Getting defensive with the prosecution doesn't help his case a bit, either.

He seems to think that positional asphyxia is only "possible" and didn't sound real convinced of that. I got the idea he was looking at it very narrowly and not as a thing that happens in all sorts of situations. We've pulled more than one person out of a rollover accident who died from it, and there was a case a while back that made the news for a while of a high school student who had climbed over the back seat of a hatchback to reach something and the seat collapsed, trapping him upside down. The 911 operator had to listen to him die while they tried to ping his phone and locate him. PA is a thing, and it kills people, whether he wants to admit it on the stand or not.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#364

Post by filly »

This Brodd guy is the avatar for the phrase "old whitey." I mean, could you get a more white looking guy, even in MN?

I've been in and out of the testimony all day, but my husband (who was raised in the infamous Macomb County) was very angry watching Old Whitey. The jury? Dunno.
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RVInit
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#365

Post by RVInit »

Yeah. I am convinced he will not get much work as a use of force witness except in jurisdictions where it's highly likely that an all white jury will ignore the facts in order to acquit the officer.

LOL, I fell asleep, not sure how much I missed. :oopsy: But the prosecutor is still hammering away.

Oh. The witness just admitted the crowd was not threatening. Oh my, he will likely go back to his hotel room and cry himself to sleep.
There's a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#366

Post by filly »

LM K wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:09 pm Great Twitter coverage by BBC journalist Sean Dilley.

@seandilleyNEWS
Yes! Far preferable to watching the tee vee and being subjected to the whims of MSNBC, CNN etc.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#367

Post by LM K »

I'm losing my shit.

Witness just said he could see Floyd's veins and that they showed a strong pulse.

Has the defense show any video for the witness to show where the witness could see Floyd's veins and pulse?
"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
From "Take the Money and Run"
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RVInit
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#368

Post by RVInit »

LM K wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:56 pm I'm losing my shit.

Witness just said he could see Floyd's veins and that they showed a strong pulse.

Has the defense show any video for the witness to show where the witness could see Floyd's veins and pulse?
This is witness is more repulsive than the defense attorney, IMO.
There's a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality.
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RVInit
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#369

Post by RVInit »

OMG. They just showed video of Floyd's obviously involuntary leg movement and the scum bag on the witness stand said a reasonable officer would interpret that as an aggressive movement by Floyd. My god this man is grotesque.
There's a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#370

Post by LM K »

RVInit wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:59 pm
LM K wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:56 pm I'm losing my shit.

Witness just said he could see Floyd's veins and that they showed a strong pulse.

Has the defense show any video for the witness to show where the witness could see Floyd's veins and pulse?
This is witness is more repulsive than the defense attorney, IMO.
If I were a juror, that one comment would leave me no other option but to dismiss all of Brodd's testimony.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#371

Post by LM K »

Brodd just said he didn't look at the autopsy pics.

How is that possible?!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#372

Post by sugar magnolia »

What was the gibberish about the prone position being appropriate in the interest of space considerations? A 4 lane street isn't wide enough to roll him over on his side?

I hope this man never works another day in his life and the defense refuses to pay him for this case.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#373

Post by sugar magnolia »

OH! Almost forgot the biggie. If George Floyd had been perfectly compliant, and not resisting, he would have been "resting comfortable" on the pavement. I almost puked when I heard that. He just made matters worse when he later testified that he hadn't viewed the autopsy photos. How can you not look at the autopsy photos when you are analyzing a use of FORCE case? How is that even possible? How do you factor in enough FORCE to leave marks on a body if you don't even look at the fucking photos?
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RVInit
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#374

Post by RVInit »

sugar magnolia wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:16 pm What was the gibberish about the prone position being appropriate in the interest of space considerations? A 4 lane street isn't wide enough to roll him over on his side?

I hope this man never works another day in his life and the defense refuses to pay him for this case.
:yeahthat: There were lot of WTF moments from his testimony, and the space thing was just bizarre. I could not believe he kept a straight face as he spoke those words. Another one for me was when he said Floyd was "resting comfortably" on the pavement.
There's a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality.
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Re: Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

#375

Post by p0rtia »

Thanks, RV. Fantastic and much appreciated.

:bighug:

Everyone else contributing, also many things for the insights.

:grouphug:
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