Tesla

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Gregg
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Re: Tesla

#326

Post by Gregg »

Jeffrey wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:20 am
Gregg wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:28 pm Right now they are the best but they're still not good enough. I myself think that 500 miles with a 30 minute charge cycle is the breaking poiint, but where ever it is, no one is there yet.
That’s an unreasonable metric. Who actually needs that much range and to recharge that fast? 500 miles is 7 hours of driving at 70 mph, your hypothetical driver can only afford 30 minutes to recharge so he can drive another 7 hours?

The average driver drives 30 miles a day and their car remains parked for most of the day, time that it can be recharging. For a road trip, 300 miles of driving or ~4 hours with a 40 minute bathroom break to recharge is more than reasonable. Consumers need to be more realistic, the problem isn’t on the manufacturers end.
Its not a practical standard, its a psychological one. I drive a PEHV with a 29 mile electric only range, and go months without buying fuel, weeks without using the gasoline engine at all, and most people would be able to geet by 90% of the time or better with 75 mile range and an overnight recharge, or a 4 hour recharge if they can charge at work. But before people who don't know any better can be made to at least look, they'll never realize what their realistic practical needs are. Whenever I try to explain this I always have to deal with the "well, you have another car" (true) or "you work for a car company and drive a company car a lot of the time" (also true) before I get to the part where my daily 16.3 mile commute uses 33 kWhrs one way, which when you consider I charge for free at work means I'm spending less than $2.25 cents a week on fuel, and it'll be even more practical when I get a solar roof.....

No, to get the masses to consider it, you have to convince them they can drive halfway to Florida on a full charge or can get a days worth of commuting and errands in 30 minutes. My data points may be high or low, but the concept holds.


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Sam the Centipede
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Re: Tesla

#327

Post by Sam the Centipede »

As Gregg suggests, the psychology might be important. People with gasoline-fueled cars tend not to worry about running out. There are plenty of has stations and if you do run out, you can somehow get to a nearby source (walk, phone for help, hitchhike) and bring back a can of the stuff. But what do you do if your electric car runs out? The real answer is that you avoid running out by playing attention to the range limits and meters. (And, of course, many/most drivers of non-electric cars never run out of fuel; I haven't.)

But the idea of having a dead electric on a strange road and no understanding of how to resolve the situation introduces fear of the unknown. I guess the practical answers are (a) as mentioned, don't get into the situation, (b) beg help somewhere, anywhere, that you might be able to plug in when the meter is getting 5% or1%, (c) a tow truck to the nearest charging station, (d) find out if there's such a thing as a mobile recharging service, a little generator in a van. Are there other options?

Exaggerated fear of the unknown is a problem when changes in behavior are required. People underestimate familiar dangers (firearms, crossing the street) but can be excessively fearful of the unfamiliar.


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webhick
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Re: Tesla

#328

Post by webhick »

Elon Musk dances like a cactuar would dance, if it could dance.


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DejaMoo
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Re: Tesla

#329

Post by DejaMoo »

Jeffrey wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:20 am That’s an unreasonable metric. Who actually needs that much range and to recharge that fast? 500 miles is 7 hours of driving at 70 mph, your hypothetical driver can only afford 30 minutes to recharge so he can drive another 7 hours?
With a 500 mile cruising range, I'd feel much more comfortable playing tourist with an electric vehicle. Until charging stations become as common as gas stations, the miles spent locating the nearest charging station will always have to be factored in, especially when driving in remote areas.

I'd settle for a 300 mile range between charges, but I'd prefer an even shorter charge time. 30 minutes might not sound very long now, but if you're waiting your turn in line, it's an eternity. Realistically, we'd need double or maybe triple the number of fuel stations around if it took 30 minutes for a full charge versus five minutes to fill a gas tank. And you know many people will wait till the last few miles before recharging, just like they do now.

A related issue is safety. Panhandlers and thieves are known to harass people at gas stations. It only takes a few minutes to fill a tank and get out of there. If you're stuck at the charging station for a half-hour, they'll be much more aggressive, knowing you can't leave yet. Either the charging stations will have to pay for security, or people will be sitting ducks.


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Sam the Centipede
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Re: Tesla

#330

Post by Sam the Centipede »

DejaMoo wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:10 am With a 500 mile cruising range, I'd feel much more comfortable playing tourist with an electric vehicle. Until charging stations become as common as gas stations, the miles spent locating the nearest charging station will always have to be factored in, especially when driving in remote areas.
Don't most electric cars have navigation systems which include updated details of charging stations? So locating them isn't difficult, and one can get an idea of whether there are many or few in the area before setting off. I would expect drivers of electric cars to put a more care into checking that issue than gas station users need to until charging stations become closer to ubiquitous.


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Notorial Dissent
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Re: Tesla

#331

Post by Notorial Dissent »

As Gregg, Sam, and Deja point out, it is the psychological factor that exists whether consciously or unconsciously in the public's mind that is the limiting factor here, and it will remain so. It doesn't have to be rational or reasonable, it just exists, and unless and until that perception can be overcome then there will be no general acceptance. Simple test, ask people you know how far it is to various places, work, the grocery store, their gym, library, and see what they say.

Just out of curiosity, what do they claim the dollar figure on charging is?


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Re: Tesla

#332

Post by Grumpy Old Guy »

When the Chevrolet Volt was first introduced, I thought their electric drive plug in with a gas generator backup concept made sense. Most urban driving is within a short range with long downtime at home or work.

I don't own a Volt or any other plug in, so I do not know what they are like to drive.


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DejaMoo
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Re: Tesla

#333

Post by DejaMoo »

Notorial Dissent wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:32 am As Gregg, Sam, and Deja point out, it is the psychological factor that exists whether consciously or unconsciously in the public's mind that is the limiting factor here, and it will remain so. It doesn't have to be rational or reasonable, it just exists, and unless and until that perception can be overcome then there will be no general acceptance. Simple test, ask people you know how far it is to various places, work, the grocery store, their gym, library, and see what they say.
I expect most people are like me, in that they can't afford to own more than one car. Which means if you are in the habit of taking road trips, you'll need a car that can go the distance, even if 80% of the time you're only using it for your daily commute/running errands.


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Notorial Dissent
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Re: Tesla

#334

Post by Notorial Dissent »

As I said, perception, whether conscious or otherwise.


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Re: Tesla

#335

Post by Shizzle Popped »

To illustrate Gregg's point: I go see my parents once or twice a month. The trip is roughly 220 miles through a lightly populated section of Indiana and Illinois where charging stations are few and far between, and the closest one to my parent's house is another 15 miles (at a bank, of all places). We've discussed replacing my wife's car with a full electric but realized we would probably never take it on trips to my parents. With current ranges in the 250-ish mile zone we're right on the edge of using all of the battery and even at 300 miles it's probably a little too close for comfort. Then, once we get there we either have to plug it in for an eternity to charge at 110 volts and lose the use of our car or find a charging station, hope it's not occupied and cool our jets for however long it take to charge. That leaves us driving my rapidly aging crossover that gets around 27 mpg on the highway on a good day. The electric really isn't a practical solution for us right now but at 500 miles with a 30 minute or even hour charge cycle that equation changes dramatically.


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Jeffrey
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Re: Tesla

#336

Post by Jeffrey »

You can easily do a 220 mile trip in current EVs. Leave your house with 100% charge, get there with 25% charge, next day hit a supercharger for 30 minutes to get back home.


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Re: Tesla

#337

Post by Somerset »

DejaMoo wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:10 am
Jeffrey wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:20 am That’s an unreasonable metric. Who actually needs that much range and to recharge that fast? 500 miles is 7 hours of driving at 70 mph, your hypothetical driver can only afford 30 minutes to recharge so he can drive another 7 hours?
With a 500 mile cruising range, I'd feel much more comfortable playing tourist with an electric vehicle. Until charging stations become as common as gas stations, the miles spent locating the nearest charging station will always have to be factored in, especially when driving in remote areas.

I'd settle for a 300 mile range between charges, but I'd prefer an even shorter charge time. 30 minutes might not sound very long now, but if you're waiting your turn in line, it's an eternity. Realistically, we'd need double or maybe triple the number of fuel stations around if it took 30 minutes for a full charge versus five minutes to fill a gas tank. And you know many people will wait till the last few miles before recharging, just like they do now.

A related issue is safety. Panhandlers and thieves are known to harass people at gas stations. It only takes a few minutes to fill a tank and get out of there. If you're stuck at the charging station for a half-hour, they'll be much more aggressive, knowing you can't leave yet. Either the charging stations will have to pay for security, or people will be sitting ducks.
Yes, time to recharge is one of the bigger stumbling blocks. The panhandling problem is a peripheral issue, but people overall don't want to change the way they budget time for refueling/recharging. I think the problem will eventually be solved by "meeting half-way." Charging times will get somewhat shorter, and people will also learn to accommodate somewhat longer "pit stops."


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DejaMoo
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Re: Tesla

#338

Post by DejaMoo »

Somerset wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:00 pm The panhandling problem is a peripheral issue
Not if you're female, disabled, elderly, or have any (other) cause to feel vulnerable and/or likely to be targeted by predators. Panhandlers can be quite aggressive, and again - if people are forced to stay in an outdoors location for a longish period of time, especially when it's dark, or few others around, that's where the predators will come looking for victims.


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Re: Tesla

#339

Post by PaulG »

How often is there a line at the charging station? If I go to my local gas station and there is a line at the pumps, I just keep on driving, even though I can wait for two or three minutes and get space at a pump. I keep on going to the next gas station a half mile away. I'm not going to be eager to wait 30 minutes to get a space to wait 30 minutes to get a charge.


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Re: Tesla

#340

Post by Jeffrey »

That is a problem. It seems to depend on time and location. This thanksgiving when a lot of people went on long trips it was a disaster:
► Show Spoiler


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Re: Tesla

#341

Post by Somerset »

DejaMoo wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:11 pm
Somerset wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:00 pm The panhandling problem is a peripheral issue
Not if you're female, disabled, elderly, or have any (other) cause to feel vulnerable and/or likely to be targeted by predators. Panhandlers can be quite aggressive, and again - if people are forced to stay in an outdoors location for a longish period of time, especially when it's dark, or few others around, that's where the predators will come looking for victims.
I live in the Bay Area. I use public transportation. I know about panhandlers :(

But it's still a peripheral issue regarding charging times for BEVs. Stations in high risk areas might need to add security measures (staff, fencing, etc), but it's not central to the issue of overall customer acceptance of somewhat longer "refueling" time.


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Re: Tesla

#342

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

Jeffrey wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:38 pm You can easily do a 220 mile trip in current EVs. Leave your house with 100% charge, get there with 25% charge, next day hit a supercharger for 30 minutes to get back home.
I have an Audi E-tron. Range is claimed to be 204 miles. I have gone 220 miles (with plenty of range anxiety the last few miles) when the ambient temperature was in the 70s. And 190 miles (with even more anxiety) when the temperatures were down in the 50s.

(Luckily I don't have many Francophone friends since "etron" means turd in French.)


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Re: Tesla

#343

Post by Jeffrey »

I haven’t seen a lot of discussion about the security thing either. The first Tesla charger they installed in Puerto Rico is in a building with security guards but I don’t know if that’s feasible for every single high risk area. Non Tesla chargers on the island I’ve seen are at malls that also have security.
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Notorial Dissent
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Re: Tesla

#344

Post by Notorial Dissent »

Somerset wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:00 pm
DejaMoo wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:10 am
Jeffrey wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:20 am That’s an unreasonable metric. Who actually needs that much range and to recharge that fast? 500 miles is 7 hours of driving at 70 mph, your hypothetical driver can only afford 30 minutes to recharge so he can drive another 7 hours?
With a 500 mile cruising range, I'd feel much more comfortable playing tourist with an electric vehicle. Until charging stations become as common as gas stations, the miles spent locating the nearest charging station will always have to be factored in, especially when driving in remote areas.

I'd settle for a 300 mile range between charges, but I'd prefer an even shorter charge time. 30 minutes might not sound very long now, but if you're waiting your turn in line, it's an eternity. Realistically, we'd need double or maybe triple the number of fuel stations around if it took 30 minutes for a full charge versus five minutes to fill a gas tank. And you know many people will wait till the last few miles before recharging, just like they do now.

A related issue is safety. Panhandlers and thieves are known to harass people at gas stations. It only takes a few minutes to fill a tank and get out of there. If you're stuck at the charging station for a half-hour, they'll be much more aggressive, knowing you can't leave yet. Either the charging stations will have to pay for security, or people will be sitting ducks.
Yes, time to recharge is one of the bigger stumbling blocks. The panhandling problem is a peripheral issue, but people overall don't want to change the way they budget time for refueling/recharging. I think the problem will eventually be solved by "meeting half-way." Charging times will get somewhat shorter, and people will also learn to accommodate somewhat longer "pit stops."
I disagree. Impatience is a main component of human behavior, it has increased not decreased with the current generations.


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Re: Tesla

#345

Post by RTH10260 »

just turned up, ignore the intro sequence, it's a computer geek ;)



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Gregg
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Re: Tesla

#346

Post by Gregg »

Sterngard Friegen wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:46 pm
Jeffrey wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:38 pm You can easily do a 220 mile trip in current EVs. Leave your house with 100% charge, get there with 25% charge, next day hit a supercharger for 30 minutes to get back home.
I have an Audi E-tron. Range is claimed to be 204 miles. I have gone 220 miles (with plenty of range anxiety the last few miles) when the ambient temperature was in the 70s. And 190 miles (with even more anxiety) when the temperatures were down in the 50s.

(Luckily I don't have many Francophone friends since "etron" means turd in French.)
That's an important thing people who drive them know, people don't are surprised by... the claimed range is the optimal range and while I can easily beat the advertised 21 miles in the summer, winter ads a lot of things that make what during the best time of year I can go 29 miles before the engine kicks on, in the winter I run the battery down in less than 12-13.

First, when its cold, you can lose as much as 40% of battery range, just because its cold. Because its cold, you soon discover that the thing besides the engine that takes the most power to run is the heater, knock off another 10% and even that is after you learn the hacks of keeping it warm with the least amount of power to do it. Also, in the winter where I live (Cincinnati, Detroit or Gettysburg, depending..) I as often as not have to turn on the headlights, and even with LED lights, that uses a lot of power.


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ArthurWankspittle
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Re: Tesla

#347

Post by ArthurWankspittle »

Cute little fast talking Emelia Hartford and Alex Choi went to collect a car on a trailer driving a Tesla. Not the timescales most people would be happy with:


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Jeffrey
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Re: Tesla

#348

Post by Jeffrey »

Similarly from today, the absolute best case scenario for charging as of January 2020, Tesla Model 3 on a 170 kW fast charger, ~75% charge in 30 minutes:



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Sam the Centipede
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Re: Tesla

#349

Post by Sam the Centipede »

I tend to forget just how much power flows through a 170 kW fast charger. Large domestic electrical cookers are the heaviest electrical items in ordinary houses and they draw a maximum of about 11 kW (I imagine bigger ones are available), while a plug-in heater is 3 kW or less. So 170 kW is about 15× more than a cooker doing serious cooking, and about 60× more than things you can safely plug into an ordinary socket. It's a whole truckload of electrons.

It's not surprising that you can't charge your electric car by plugging it into the USB port of your laptop! :-D


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RTH10260
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Re: Tesla

#350

Post by RTH10260 »

:doh: how many would try to recharge their car using the USB outlet in their car :?: ;) :blackeye:


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