Gun Control issues

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Volkonski
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Re: Gun Control issues

#126

Post by Volkonski » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:58 pm

Yesterday Salem. Today Olympia.
Joe O'Sullivan ‏@OlympiaJoe 23m
23 minutes ago

Gun-rights supporters rallying right now at the Capitol in Olympia for a previously scheduled event.
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Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

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Re: Gun Control issues

#127

Post by Volkonski » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:59 pm

Joe O'Sullivan ‏@OlympiaJoe 7m
7 minutes ago

Former Rep Graham Hunt speaking now: With gun supporters here, "this is the safest Olympia had been all year."

Joe O'Sullivan ‏@OlympiaJoe 4m
4 minutes ago

Hunt urging gun supporters to get their friends registered to vote. In order to "stop this gun-grabbing BS" coming out of Olympia.

Joe O'Sullivan ‏@OlympiaJoe 4m
4 minutes ago

Hunt, citing the American revolution, says "use of force" might be necessary for change.
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

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Azastan
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Re: Gun Control issues

#128

Post by Azastan » Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:44 pm

Volkonski wrote:
Joe O'Sullivan ‏@OlympiaJoe 7m
7 minutes ago

Former Rep Graham Hunt speaking now: With gun supporters here, "this is the safest Olympia had been all year."

Joe O'Sullivan ‏@OlympiaJoe 4m
4 minutes ago

Hunt urging gun supporters to get their friends registered to vote. In order to "stop this gun-grabbing BS" coming out of Olympia.

Joe O'Sullivan ‏@OlympiaJoe 4m
4 minutes ago

Hunt, citing the American revolution, says "use of force" might be necessary for change.
People with more sense would have cancelled the event, considering how an open carrying gunman killed 5 people last night less than 130 miles (and only a couple of hours drive on I-5) away from Olympia. For all they knew, the gunman could have been standing there in their group of protestors.

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Re: Gun Control issues

#129

Post by Suranis » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:42 pm

The NRA is known for holding meetings and demonstrations right where mass shootings happen.
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Re: Gun Control issues

#130

Post by Foggy » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:20 am

Have any of our British Accreditation Registry shipping clerks :lol: read yesterday's decision by the 9th Circuit in Young v. Hawaii?

I'd really like to see some intelligent analysis of the ruling, por favor. :daydream:
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Re: Gun Control issues

#131

Post by Judge Roy Bean » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:51 pm

Foggy wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:20 am
Have any of our British Accreditation Registry shipping clerks :lol: read yesterday's decision by the 9th Circuit in Young v. Hawaii?

I'd really like to see some intelligent analysis of the ruling, por favor. :daydream:
FYI:
http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/o ... -17808.pdf

This one will end up with SCOTUS - the 9th circuit for now matches up with two other circuit courts - D.C. and the 7th.

On the other hand, the 2nd, 3rd and 4th have upheld state laws that restrict carrying guns in public.

Apparently, Hawaii hasn't decided if they'll ask for an en banc ruling, but even if they reverse it, it's sure to wind up being appealed all the way up the food chain.

IMHO, the crux of the decision is the majority of the three judges believe the 2nd amendment not only protects your right to have a gun in the home for self defense, you can also carry it outside your home. Hawaii's statute is so overly restrictive (no permits have ever been issued to citizens who aren't involved in law enforcement or private security) that it is effectively a complete ban on doing that.
“Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.”
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Re: Gun Control issues

#132

Post by Foggy » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:02 pm

You're not a shipping clerk. :fingerwag:

:lol:

Yeah, I read about it. You missed an important distinction in the ruling.

There's no constitutional right to concealed carry, but open carry in public is my constitutional right, according to the 9th Circuit. I assume that includes public buildings, so for example if I am out of custody, I may wear my pistol in a holster to my arraignment in court on criminal charges. Good news. :blink:

But whether I can open carry at a baby shower might depend on the whims of the hostess. Unless, of course, the event is being held in a public place like a city, county, or state park, in which case hey, the Constitution is the Constitution.

I suppose a number of states are going to have to repeal a few laws now.

... and this is yet another reason to oppose the confirmation of Señor Kavanaugh. :talktothehand:
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Re: Gun Control issues

#133

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:26 pm

This might wind up at SCOTUS, but the outcome is not certain.

First, I think that if the case goes en banc, it will likely be overturned. The two judges in the majority are, I believe, the same two who were in the majority in Peruta I. As Judge Clifton pointed out, although the analysis in the en banc discussion of the issue in Peruta II is dicta as applied to this case, it's clear from Peruta II where the bulk of the active judges of the circuit stand on the issue.

That said, there is a circuit split. And, with Kavanaugh, there might be the 4th vote for cert that has been missing in most of the 2nd Amendment cases that, post-Heller, have been appealed to the Court. So it might reach SCOTUS. However, and as Clifton pointed out in his dissent, the record below is not clearly developed as to how much of a ban the Hawaii law actually is. So I could also see the Court passing - much will depend, I think, on how the 9th handles the case (presuming it's taken up en banc). (It's also possible, given the procedural posture, that the County might wait to see what happens on remand, given that this was decided pre-discovery, but I think that's less likely.)

If SCOTUS takes up the case, I'd say it's 6-5 and pick 'em as to where Roberts goes.
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Re: Gun Control issues

#134

Post by ZekeB » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:18 pm

Open or conceal carry a gun into your local post office and see what happens.
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Re: Gun Control issues

#135

Post by much ado » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:48 pm

My wife had to walk the Swiss Army knife on her key chain back to her parked car (to avoid confiscation) after security screening at the Ronald V. Dellums Federal Building and U.S. Courthouse in Oakland, CA. So an open carry handgun would have been passed through? I doubt it.

Ronald V. Dellums Federal Building and U.S. Courthouse

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Re: Gun Control issues

#136

Post by Foggy » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:51 pm

That was before yesterday, much ado. The times, they are a'changin'. :-

So Mikedunford, is there a reasonable chance that SCOTUS might leave a split between the circuits unresolved? That seems highly unlikely to me. Didn't I read that 6 circuits including the 9th all agreed with Young? Which circuit ruled the other way?
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Re: Gun Control issues

#137

Post by much ado » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:57 pm

Foggy wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:51 pm
That was before yesterday, much ado. The times, they are a'changin'. :-

So Mikedunford, is there a reasonable chance that SCOTUS might leave a split between the circuits unresolved? That seems highly unlikely to me. Didn't I read that 6 circuits including the 9th all agreed with Young? Which circuit ruled the other way?
Someone needs to write an updated song, "The times, they have a'change-ed". ("Change-ed" is two syllables.)

How about weapons on airplanes? It's a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT!!!

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Re: Gun Control issues

#138

Post by ZekeB » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:07 pm

You cannot carry a gun, concealed or not, into any Federal building. You cannot carry a gun, concealed or not, onto any property owned or leased by the Postal Service. Having a permit does not allow you to do such either. Try it and get caught and you’ll spend time in confinement while they iron things out.
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Re: Gun Control issues

#139

Post by p0rtia » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:12 pm

But, but, but.... Oh, fuck it.
No matter where you go, there you are! :towel:
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Re: Gun Control issues

#140

Post by much ado » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:18 pm

"All laws are equal, but some laws are more equal than others" - George Orwell, 1945.

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Re: Gun Control issues

#141

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:31 pm

Foggy wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:51 pm
That was before yesterday, much ado. The times, they are a'changin'. :-

So Mikedunford, is there a reasonable chance that SCOTUS might leave a split between the circuits unresolved? That seems highly unlikely to me. Didn't I read that 6 circuits including the 9th all agreed with Young? Which circuit ruled the other way?
I believe it's currently DC and the 7th in line with this, with 2,3, and 4 the other way.

There are other unresolved circuit splits out there. And this is an area where the Court has denied cert in a bunch of cases since Heller.

I think they'll step in at some point, but I think Roberts (in particular) is going to want a case that will permit them to draw a clear line as to when/what carry regulations are acceptable. Whether this case is it remains TBD.
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Re: Gun Control issues

#142

Post by Lani » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:34 pm

Here's the guy who brought the lawsuit.
“The world’s getting crazier. They’re making it legal to smoke marijuana, and they’re letting in a lot of illegal immigrants,” he said. “It was just a matter of having it available if and when I need it, in the car or someplace where it’s convenient for self-defense. That don’t mean I’m going to carry it every day. I handle myself all right without a gun.”

However, Young added that he has felt more vulnerable after suffering a stroke in recent years.

“Now I need a gun to help me,” he said.
http://www.staradvertiser.com/2018/07/2 ... c58884cb32

Local news on the case.
“We do not take lightly the problem of gun violence, which the State of Hawaii ‘has understandably sought to fight,'” Judge Diarmuid O’Scannlain wrote. “But, for better or for worse, the Second Amendment does protect a right to carry a firearm in public for self-defense.”

If the ruling stands, it could lead to more guns in public in the few western states under 9th Circuit jurisdiction where they are currently restricted.

“States like Hawaii and California will have to allow far more guns on the streets than they do today,” said Adam Winkler, a law professor at the University of California, Los Angeles. “States would be able to ban concealed carry but only if they allow people to carry their guns openly displayed.

Hawaii Attorney General Russell Suzuki said his office was “disappointed” in the 9th Circuit decision because he believes it undermines the state’s strong gun control law. “We intend to consult with Hawaii County and work with them on further action,” he said in a statement released Tuesday.
https://www.civilbeat.org/2018/07/appea ... in-public/

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Re: Gun Control issues

#143

Post by RoadScholar » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:25 pm

I will never understand how in public, where a skirmish of individual rights is inevitable, the Second Amendment overrules all other rights.

Laws to protect the public are unquestionably legitimate. A public whose rights can be violated ot terminated due to the presence of guns. Why do their rights not matter?
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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Re: Gun Control issues

#144

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:21 am

RoadScholar wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:25 pm
I will never understand how in public, where a skirmish of individual rights is inevitable, the Second Amendment overrules all other rights.

Laws to protect the public are unquestionably legitimate. A public whose rights can be violated ot terminated due to the presence of guns. Why do their rights not matter?
The Constitution trumps the Declaration of Independence.

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Re: Gun Control issues

#145

Post by RoadScholar » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:50 am

And the other parts of the Bill of Rights?
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Re: Gun Control issues

#146

Post by RTH10260 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:45 pm


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Re: Gun Control issues

#147

Post by RTH10260 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:51 pm

Comment by a Liveleak poster re above clip:
The Missconceptions of #3D Printed Guns
I wanted to give some facts about this. Before this happened, you could pretty much make your own AR15 for about $600(I'm using the AR15 as an example). All the parts for it are available to purchase online, except for 1 part that you have to get a background check for. The 3D printed part is the part that you had to get a back ground check for. These are not completely untraceable, because there is a computer foot print. You don't think they are watching who downloads this? Remember The Anarchist Cookbook? Don't be fooled by the hype that the media is producing.

My neighbor, may he rest in peace, made his own weapons. It wasn't because he was a gun nut, but more that he wanted to see how a weapon performed if he shaved a millimeter here or added it there. He purchased this 30 thousand dollar machine( he had to rent a crane to get it in his workshop), so he could rest his tinkering mind. He not only made guns, but he made small engines and small cannons. It was just his curious nature-which is really the cause of all the inventions back in the day.

I hate that the media is placing a red alert on this, since you could make your own weapon, without any serial number, if you wanted to. This is nothing new.
My comment: that bit about a "computer foot print" is wrong. There will be many copies on the internet of the blueprint.vNobody can trace where a copy on a usb stick is made and manually handed on. The costly part will likely be the industrial quality 3D printer needed and the proper stuff to print with, just any plastic will probably not work.

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Re: Gun Control issues

#148

Post by TollandRCR » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:16 pm

It is true: the Second Amendment trumps all other rights and liberties and sets aside considerations of common sense and public welfare.

We are tied to a very unrestricted conception of the Amendment. I think the Framers would be appalled.
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Re: Gun Control issues

#149

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:20 pm

The primary legal issue with the 3D print gun thing is the First Amendment, not the Second.

The question (at least right now) isn't whether you can criminalize manufacture of a 3D-printed gun, or possession of a 3D-printed gun, or sale of a 3D-printed gun. It's whether the government can ban distribution of what are essentially the instructions for how to 3D print a gun.
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Re: Gun Control issues

#150

Post by Mr Brolin » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:04 am

To clarify some of the hysteria around this.

Many of the blueprints, schematics, CAD/CAM files etc for a massive swathe of firearms have been in the public domain for decades, hell just have a wander through the patent office web site. All the content is there in detail sufficient to machine a swathe of stuff. So this wailing and gnashing of teeth is pure pabulum and click bait and is noise with little to no value. People have been making their own firearms for centuries THIS IS NOTHING NEW.

Now to the law on personal assembly and manufacture of firearms In the US, (to take the example of the AR15 platform),

There is NO requirement or law preventing the manufacture or assembly of firearms for personal use.
There is NO requirement or law requiring a background check for the manufacture or assembly of firearms for personal use
There is NO requirement it law requiring serial numbering of firearms or parts thereof if manufactured and assembled for personal use
There ARE convoluted and rather strange/arbitrary prohibitions on the manufacture and use of those parts of a firearm that would permit fully automatic fire. Too long for this post

There IS a swathe of law, state, federal and municipal requiring licencing for the COMMERCIAL manufacture and assembly of firearms for commercial purposes
There are laws requiring the imprint and recording of serial numbers on the regulated portion of the firearm specifically the lower receiver of the AR 15 platform
Purchase of the serial stamped part of a firearm from a commercial (not individual/personal) vendor does require a NICS background check
There is NO requirement or law requiring a NICS background OR serial stamping for an unfinished lower receiver. What are typically call 80% receivers where the purchaser has to perform the final drilling, bending, tapping, machining etc.

So, the provision of 3d printer files for a small caliber, single shot pistol falls squarely within existing and long established case and constitutional law and regulation. All that is happening is that the entry level cost in expertise and technical tooling has been reduced albeit not massively.

As an example a far more dangerous and reliable single shot simple firearm that needs no more than a vice, drill, hammer, metal grinder and the parts in a general toolbox would be the WW2 Liberator pistol, schematics widely available such as below


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