Cops Behaving Badly

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DejaMoo
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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#451

Post by DejaMoo » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:39 pm

neonzx wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:58 am
DejaMoo wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:35 am
Do retail stores react as aggressively when shoppers take their shopping carts off the property?
I wish they would because store shopping carts stolen and parked in residential neighborhoods make the areas look trashy, run down. But I imagine that is hard to monitor as virtually every store with shopping carts permits customers to wheel their purchases to their car in the cart. The carts cost ~$100+ each.
Around here they have cart patrols - employees in trucks cruising the immediate neighborhood to spot and retrieve carts. Between the nearby bus stops and the neighboring 55+ communities, a lot of carts get taken off store premises.
The infusion pump for the IV drip costs in the thousands of $.
Perhaps chipping the equipment to sound an alarm when it goes out the building is the thing to do, then. As well as explaining to patients that they can, with doctor's permission, roam the premises, but cannot go offsite with hospital equipment unless it has been cleared in advance.
I think the security guard needs additional training on how to handle a walkout patient who has obviously not been discharged. Accusing a patient of being a thief is really bad form.
Reminds me of the time when, as a teen, I used my mom's credit card at the local J.C. Penneys, only to be grabbed by security and dragged back inside from the parking lot. The store manager made a BFD out of my using a card with my mother's name on it, but the appropriate time and place to have had that discussion would have been when I was at the checkout, not when I was out in the parking lot.

He called my mom to confirm my identity and that I had permission to use the card, then reamed out my mom for not having her own name on the card (it said "Mrs. John Smith", not "Jane Smith"). Was he just looking for reasons to fuck with people? Yes.
I've heard this bull before.

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neonzx
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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#452

Post by neonzx » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:12 pm

Off Topic
DejaMoo wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:39 pm
Around here they have cart patrols - employees in trucks cruising the immediate neighborhood to spot and retrieve carts. Between the nearby bus stops and the neighboring 55+ communities, a lot of carts get taken off store premises.
Many years ago, I was a board member of a condo community located about about a mile and a half from a Kmart. There were Kmart carts scattered throughout the property. I had the maintenance supervisor go collect them all, load them on a trailer, and take them back to Kmart. There were 16 carts in total! When my guy arrived at Kmart and asked for the manager, he was told they didn't want them back as they already had new ones! :shock: (and one needs to wonder why they went bankrupt) I told my guy to just leave them in their parking lot.
To which Trump replied, Fuck the law. I don't give a fuck about the law. I want my fucking money.

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RTH10260
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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#453

Post by RTH10260 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:56 pm

neonzx wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:12 pm
Off Topic
DejaMoo wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:39 pm
Around here they have cart patrols - employees in trucks cruising the immediate neighborhood to spot and retrieve carts. Between the nearby bus stops and the neighboring 55+ communities, a lot of carts get taken off store premises.
Many years ago, I was a board member of a condo community located about about a mile and a half from a Kmart. There were Kmart carts scattered throughout the property. I had the maintenance supervisor go collect them all, load them on a trailer, and take them back to Kmart. There were 16 carts in total! When my guy arrived at Kmart and asked for the manager, he was told they didn't want them back as they already had new ones! :shock: (and one needs to wonder why they went bankrupt) I told my guy to just leave them in their parking lot.
Off Topic
Swiss version of soft coersion: the carts of a mart are chained up in a row by a small lock mechanism. Unlock a cart by inserting a coin into the mechanism. After use push it back to the end of the queue, recouple with the chain from the cart in front and you get your coin back when lock snaps into place. Any carts not returned by users will be returned by joyful youth for the bonus pocket money. Though some buyers will use just a plain metal disc of proper size they will need to find a place to purchase them and carry them next to real currency, no not much used.

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#454

Post by Somerset » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:46 pm

RTH10260 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:56 pm
neonzx wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:12 pm
Off Topic
DejaMoo wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:39 pm
Around here they have cart patrols - employees in trucks cruising the immediate neighborhood to spot and retrieve carts. Between the nearby bus stops and the neighboring 55+ communities, a lot of carts get taken off store premises.
Many years ago, I was a board member of a condo community located about about a mile and a half from a Kmart. There were Kmart carts scattered throughout the property. I had the maintenance supervisor go collect them all, load them on a trailer, and take them back to Kmart. There were 16 carts in total! When my guy arrived at Kmart and asked for the manager, he was told they didn't want them back as they already had new ones! :shock: (and one needs to wonder why they went bankrupt) I told my guy to just leave them in their parking lot.
Off Topic
Swiss version of soft coersion: the carts of a mart are chained up in a row by a small lock mechanism. Unlock a cart by inserting a coin into the mechanism. After use push it back to the end of the queue, recouple with the chain from the cart in front and you get your coin back when lock snaps into place. Any carts not returned by users will be returned by joyful youth for the bonus pocket money. Though some buyers will use just a plain metal disc of proper size they will need to find a place to purchase them and carry them next to real currency, no not much used.
Off Topic
Same in Singapore

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RVInit
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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#455

Post by RVInit » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:51 pm

In Baton Rouge, LA many stores used locking mechanisms for carts. You had to put a quarter into a slot to get the cart. So, if you wanted the quarter back, you had to take it to the cart return and push it into back of the last cart. That seemed to do the trick, you never saw carts scattered throughout the parking lot. Turns out people will put carts in the proper place for $.25.
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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#456

Post by Jeffrey » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:44 pm



AP has posted the video of the above referenced incident. Can’t see anything in it that excuses the cops actions.

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Sugar Magnolia
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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#457

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:48 pm

Jeffrey wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:44 pm


AP has posted the video of the above referenced incident. Can’t see anything in it that excuses the cops actions.
So what do you see that the cops did wrong?

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#458

Post by Jeffrey » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:54 pm

Is that a serious question?

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#459

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:37 pm

Jeffrey wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:54 pm
Is that a serious question?
Yes it is. They were following the law. If you see anything different, please point it out.

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#460

Post by RTH10260 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:39 pm

Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:48 pm
Jeffrey wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:44 pm
https:// youtu.be/kajKr474kkE

AP has posted the video of the above referenced incident. Can’t see anything in it that excuses the cops actions.
So what do you see that the cops did wrong?
What's wrong? Where is Common Sense on the side of the law enforcment? Clearly it's a patient that needs to be returned to the hospital grounds, not carted off to the cells. Call the guards supervisor to sort this out! :brickwallsmall:

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Sugar Magnolia
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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#461

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:00 pm

RTH10260 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:39 pm
Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:48 pm
Jeffrey wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:44 pm
https:// youtu.be/kajKr474kkE

AP has posted the video of the above referenced incident. Can’t see anything in it that excuses the cops actions.
So what do you see that the cops did wrong?
What's wrong? Where is Common Sense on the side of the law enforcment? Clearly it's a patient that needs to be returned to the hospital grounds, not carted off to the cells. Call the guards supervisor to sort this out! :brickwallsmall:
The law trumps common sense, and they did call nurse Jen who denied telling him he could leave.

I think there may be some confusion about "right" and "legal" in this situation. We swear an oath to uphold the law, not sort things out because we don't agree with the law. Once the security guard, who is the legal representative of the hospital, decided the patient was stealing the equipment and physically off hospital property and was ready and willing to file charges for it, the officers can't just refuse to enforce the law. Without all the he said/he said involved, the man was in possession of hospital property, off the hospital grounds, without permission. That's theft as long as someone is willing to file charges. And don't forget he wasn't arrested for theft, he was arrested for his actions once the cops showed up. Making a scene, arguing with a cop, starting shit, that sort of thing will almost always get you hauled off to jail. I'd rather have a disorderly conduct charge than a theft charge any day.

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#462

Post by Jeffrey » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:11 pm

I’m going off the Associated Press summary. His brother and boyfriend were the ones that started a scene, frankly with justification. The video shows the guy with the IV is calm, is cooperating, isn’t raising his voice. I’m sure there’s something written down somewhere that lets you ignore a security guard. If the end result is arresting a pneumonia patient with an IV still attached then you gotta retrace your steps because at some point a mistake was made.

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#463

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:27 pm

Jeffrey wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:11 pm
I’m going off the Associated Press summary. His brother and boyfriend were the ones that started a scene, frankly with justification. The video shows the guy with the IV is calm, is cooperating, isn’t raising his voice. I’m sure there’s something written down somewhere that lets you ignore a security guard. If the end result is arresting a pneumonia patient with an IV still attached then you gotta retrace your steps because at some point a mistake was made.
We keep calling him a security guard, but most of them are sworn officers and have to go through the academy. Regardless of whether he's sworn or not, there isn't anything written down that you can ignore him, and the IV wasn't attached when he was arrested. It was removed by the nursing supervisor before he was ever arrested. The only thing we know for sure is what was in the video. We have no idea how he responded to the security guard, or what sort of interaction his brothers had with anyone or what the justification for their arrest was. All we know is he was arrested for disorderly conduct, whatever the verbiage is in that particular law, and we can assume the officers know that law.

The basic mistake was the security officer being a total asshole. Once the officers arrived, they did what was required of them.

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#464

Post by Jeffrey » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:55 pm

Alright. Well maybe later we will find out the patient lied, but I saw his interview on CNN, he sounds like he’s telling the truth.

In the worst case scenario, maybe he snuck out of the hospital without permission, I still can’t see arresting him as reasonable. Honestly even if he really was trying to steal the equipment, the hospital has all his ID and insurance information, you can arrest him later. Cop should have given the benefit of the doubt to the guy in a hospital gown with his ass flapping in the breeze.

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#465

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:05 pm

Jeffrey wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:55 pm
Alright. Well maybe later we will find out the patient lied, but I saw his interview on CNN, he sounds like he’s telling the truth.

In the worst case scenario, maybe he snuck out of the hospital without permission, I still can’t see arresting him as reasonable. Honestly even if he really was trying to steal the equipment, the hospital has all his ID and insurance information, you can arrest him later. Cop should have given the benefit of the doubt to the guy in a hospital gown with his ass flapping in the breeze.
I haven't seen his interview, but the video of some of the actual interaction is posted above.

And the whole point is that the cops legally CAN'T give anyone the benefit of the doubt in that situation. They can literally see the guy off of hospital property, with hospital equipment, and the legal representative of the hospital says he wants to file charges. The cops have no discretion in that situation.

If you come over to my house and ask my husband if you can borrow the lawnmower and he says yes, so you stroll on back to your yard with it, but I come home and decide you've been an asshole to me so I call the cops. The cops show up, my lawnmower is in your yard and I say it was stolen (and my husband denies giving you permission) and can prove it is mine and am willing to sign charges, you're going to jail for theft. Your explanations mean nothing. The fact that you have my property and I'm willing to pursue filing charges is the only thing that matters legally. The cops can't just decide to believe the guy with the lawnmower over the owner.

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#466

Post by Patagoniagirl » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:19 pm

Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:05 pm
Jeffrey wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:55 pm
Alright. Well maybe later we will find out the patient lied, but I saw his interview on CNN, he sounds like he’s telling the truth.

In the worst case scenario, maybe he snuck out of the hospital without permission, I still can’t see arresting him as reasonable. Honestly even if he really was trying to steal the equipment, the hospital has all his ID and insurance information, you can arrest him later. Cop should have given the benefit of the doubt to the guy in a hospital gown with his ass flapping in the breeze.
I haven't seen his interview, but the video of some of the actual interaction is posted above.

And the whole point is that the cops legally CAN'T give anyone the benefit of the doubt in that situation. They can literally see the guy off of hospital property, with hospital equipment, and the legal representative of the hospital says he wants to file charges. The cops have no discretion in that situation.

If you come over to my house and ask my husband if you can borrow the lawnmower and he says yes, so you stroll on back to your yard with it, but I come home and decide you've been an asshole to me so I call the cops. The cops show up, my lawnmower is in your yard and I say it was stolen (and my husband denies giving you permission) and can prove it is mine and am willing to sign charges, you're going to jail for theft. Your explanations mean nothing. The fact that you have my property and I'm willing to pursue filing charges is the only thing that matters legally. The cops can't just decide to believe the guy with the lawnmower over the owner.
Your scenerio fits perfectly with what happened, in my view. And in your scenerio, a decent cop would have asked the husband /DOCTOR, if the patient was told he could go outside and take a walk. The cops certainly can make that kind of judgment call. And they fucking do it all the time! As I have often told my brother a Police Lt., making excuses for over-zealous or racist cops becomes no one.

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#467

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:26 pm

Patagoniagirl wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:19 pm
Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:05 pm
Jeffrey wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:55 pm
Alright. Well maybe later we will find out the patient lied, but I saw his interview on CNN, he sounds like he’s telling the truth.

In the worst case scenario, maybe he snuck out of the hospital without permission, I still can’t see arresting him as reasonable. Honestly even if he really was trying to steal the equipment, the hospital has all his ID and insurance information, you can arrest him later. Cop should have given the benefit of the doubt to the guy in a hospital gown with his ass flapping in the breeze.
I haven't seen his interview, but the video of some of the actual interaction is posted above.

And the whole point is that the cops legally CAN'T give anyone the benefit of the doubt in that situation. They can literally see the guy off of hospital property, with hospital equipment, and the legal representative of the hospital says he wants to file charges. The cops have no discretion in that situation.

If you come over to my house and ask my husband if you can borrow the lawnmower and he says yes, so you stroll on back to your yard with it, but I come home and decide you've been an asshole to me so I call the cops. The cops show up, my lawnmower is in your yard and I say it was stolen (and my husband denies giving you permission) and can prove it is mine and am willing to sign charges, you're going to jail for theft. Your explanations mean nothing. The fact that you have my property and I'm willing to pursue filing charges is the only thing that matters legally. The cops can't just decide to believe the guy with the lawnmower over the owner.
Your scenerio fits perfectly with what happened, in my view. And in your scenerio, a decent cop would have asked the husband /DOCTOR, if the patient was told he could go outside and take a walk. The cops certainly can make that kind of judgment call. And they fucking do it all the time! As I have often told my brother. Police Lt., making excuses for over-zealous or racist cops becomes no one.
If you watched the video, they did contact the person he said had given him permission. She denied doing it. Her name is nurse Jen according to the video. Cops arresting a black man are neither automatically over-zealous nor are they automatically racist. Any cop standing in front of a complainant and a person accused, with enough evidence of the crime alleged (off property, in possession of the equipment) would be disciplined for failing to do their job if they just walk away. They can try to talk the security guard out of filing charges but if he pushes it, they have to arrest (or field release) the guy for the theft. But he wasn't arrested for theft!

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#468

Post by RoadScholar » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:35 pm

I understand (I think) SugarM’s point: the police are bound by protocols based on a Categorical Imperative... acting in a way that is most fair to all parties in the maximum number of situations.

They don’t get to be deciders of fact or adjudicate whom to believe. They follow the rules they were taught, and it is no use expecting them not to.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#469

Post by ZekeB » Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:00 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:35 pm
They don’t get to be deciders of fact or adjudicate whom to believe. They follow the rules they were taught, and it is no use expecting them not to.
Which is why I'm opposed to some law enforcement officers being elected. Why should it matter if the sheriff is a Republican or a Democrat? Popularity contests result in people like Arpaio holding office.
Trump: Er hat eine größere Ente als ich.

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#470

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:21 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:35 pm
They don’t get to be deciders of fact or adjudicate whom to believe. They follow the rules they were taught, and it is no use expecting them not to.
Exactly!

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#471

Post by neonzx » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:44 pm

This was the original statement put out by the Freeport PD,
Freeport Police Department
June 18 at 6:03 PM ·

STATEMENT FROM FREEPORT POLICE DEPARTMENT REGARDING ACCUSATIONS OF POLICE MISCONDUCT DURING ARRESTS MADE IN THE AREA OF FHN MEMORIAL HOSPITAL ON JUNE 9TH, 2019.

On June 9th, 2019 at approximately 4:38pm, Freeport Police Officers responded to the area of Stephenson Street and Whistler Avenue after they were summoned to this location by a Freeport Health Network (FHN) security employee. The security employee who requested assistance is not a sworn police officer and is an employee of FHN. The intersection of Stephenson Street and Whistler Avenue is adjacent to the real property that comprises FHN Memorial Hospital.

During an ensuing investigation by responding Freeport Police Officers it was determined that a hospital patient along with two other subjects had committed acts of disorderly conduct during an interaction with an FHN security employee. As a result, all three subjects involved in the verbal dispute with FHN security personnel were arrested and charged with misdemeanor Disorderly Conduct. In addition to the Disorderly Conduct charges, two of the subjects involved in this incident were also charged with an additional count of misdemeanor Resisting or Obstructing a Peace Officer.

The charges against all three subjects are merely accusations and all are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

Several social media posts have since been created which contain inaccurate information regarding the incident and departmental response. In one of the social media posts, an individual wrote “officers stood by and watched while my IV was removed on the sidewalk, and it was NOT by a doctor”. This statement is misleading, as the IV was removed at the request of the subject by FHN medical personnel (not security or police).

The Freeport Police Department urges the public to reserve judgment while a complete review of the incident is performed. Additional information will be provided by the Department once all information has been reviewed. The Department will continue to responds to requests for assistance in a manner consistent with our mission statement of providing and maintaining a safe living and working environment for the citizens of Freeport.
To which Trump replied, Fuck the law. I don't give a fuck about the law. I want my fucking money.

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#472

Post by Jeffrey » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:00 am

RoadScholar wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:35 pm
I understand (I think) SugarM’s point: the police are bound by protocols based on a Categorical Imperative... acting in a way that is most fair to all parties in the maximum number of situations.
Well that’s why I can’t stomach the arrest. I don’t see how arresting a guy in a hospital gown with an IV still (allegedly) attached is the safe rule of thumb to follow. Seems like it would lead to more problems than it would solve.

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#473

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:36 am

Jeffrey wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:00 am
RoadScholar wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:35 pm
I understand (I think) SugarM’s point: the police are bound by protocols based on a Categorical Imperative... acting in a way that is most fair to all parties in the maximum number of situations.
Well that’s why I can’t stomach the arrest. I don’t see how arresting a guy in a hospital gown with an IV still (allegedly) attached is the safe rule of thumb to follow. Seems like it would lead to more problems than it would solve.
That you use "allegedly" tells us you haven't bothered to watch the video of the actual incident and yet you are convinced everyone handled it wrong.

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#474

Post by Jeffrey » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:12 am

I’m not stating for a fact that it was handled wrong, I’m saying it looks like that. And I wasn’t able to find the full video. I see one clip where the IV is attached and a clip from later one where it’s removed, and then discussion here of a discrepancy between the cops version about how the IV was removed and the guys version.

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Re: Cops Behaving Badly

#475

Post by pipistrelle » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:23 am

Surgeries — I've had a few. Been attached to an IV drip. And told to walk (help keep lungs going, prevent DVTs).

I've always been told to walk the hospital floor. Not to go off floor. I assume that that's because if I get light-headed, etc., there's a nurse right there, one who has access to my record and who checked in with me when he/she started shift (so they know I'm woozy due to surgery, not from other causes). Who could take vitals and report back to the doctor my condition if I fell, etc. And also . . . I'd think it'd be a huge liability to let a patient wander off grounds, especially one who needs an IV drip. I wasn't even supposed to leave the floor after I was off IV but not discharged. This part makes no sense to me.

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