DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

User avatar
RoadScholar
Posts: 7873
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:25 am
Location: Baltimore
Occupation: Historic Restoration Woodworker
Contact:

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#376

Post by RoadScholar » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:57 pm

Some clarification is in order.

I do not believe this to be "a ring of pedophiles" like what the Q and Pizzagate idiots are talking about. They are talking about true pedophiles... having sex with children. Perhaps such rings exist... certainly rings of child porn fans exist, sharing and helping hide the filth. I believe that this is not that.

These are grown men who like to have sex with girls of budding sexual maturity, with secondary sexual characteristics (pubic hair, breasts, etc.). True pedophiles are aroused by children who are devoid of these. I have heard reliable reports about men who molest children while very young, but as soon as they start to mature, lose interest. Again, I doubt Epstein et al are that type.

So, they are interested in sex with girls say 12 to 16. Technically mature, but under the age of consent. A crime. It is no accident that there are (I hear) porn websites with names like "Barely Legal," featuring pornographic acts with young women who could pass for underage. I wish I were kidding.

This is such a common fantasy it's strange you haven't encountered it first hand. When we had a shop in a building near the nightclub Hammerjacks, we often worked late at night on scenery construction to meet a deadline. To take a break from the heat and fiberglass fumes, we would go over to Hammerjacks and have a beer and a smoke, at the bar right near the door.

It happened every night: The bouncers/staff at the door carded the men, but we watched stunned as they let in obviously underage girls without IDs. To us, they appeared to range down to about age 14. And in the morning, the parking lot behind the club was littered with bras, condoms, small empty booze bottles, and so on.

So, not a "ring" per se. These were (allegedly) "parties." Parties where the host provided site security to avoid detection and brought in underage girls (not pre-pubescent children) and convinced them to service the men. Drugs, money, promises of a modeling career, and so on. Enticement; I seriously doubt any violence or even force was involved. And if I'm right, these were not parties for some other reason or actual event where this went on... the sex with young women was the entire point of the party.

No, it's not proof. But it walks like a duck & quacks like a duck... enough to conclude what probably (OK, not certainly) happened here.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
X3

User avatar
voxpopuluxe
Posts: 354
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:18 pm

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#377

Post by voxpopuluxe » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:58 pm

I mean, obviously I find it less troubling to entertain the possibility that a rich, powerful man with history of predatation has on occasion conspired with other predators than you do, Res, and I'm happy to let the chips fall where they may and see what the case reveals. Don't worry, dear, I'm not going to shoot up a pizza place over it.
How deep could the Deep State go if the Deep State could go deep?

User avatar
voxpopuluxe
Posts: 354
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:18 pm

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#378

Post by voxpopuluxe » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:03 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:57 pm
Enticement; I seriously doubt any violence or even force was involved. And if I'm right, not parties for some other reason or event where this went on... the sex with young women was the entire point of the party..
Oh, if it was at all the way some of evidence suggests, I'm pretty sure there was some degree of force and violence.
How deep could the Deep State go if the Deep State could go deep?

User avatar
Chilidog
Posts: 9697
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:36 am

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#379

Post by Chilidog » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:03 pm

The thing that scares me....

There is a video recording out there of Dersh getting a "happy ending."

I don't want to see that.

:sick:

User avatar
RoadScholar
Posts: 7873
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:25 am
Location: Baltimore
Occupation: Historic Restoration Woodworker
Contact:

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#380

Post by RoadScholar » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:04 pm

It's certainly possible, vox. These are not men accustomed to taking "no" for an answer.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
X3

User avatar
Res Ipsa
Posts: 2534
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:31 am

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#381

Post by Res Ipsa » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:08 pm

voxpopuluxe wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:52 pm

You seem weirdly invested in trying to disprove beyond a shadow of a doubt something that I haven't even seen a lot of people claiming.
...and the personal accusations begin. Again.

I'm trying to figure out why people are so certain that, any day now, some list of people they don't like are going to be taken out by this silver bullet. The odd thing is that people on the left AND on the right are cocksure of it, but of course with different rosters of people they don't like.

I don't know how old you are, but if you don't remember the Satanic Panic, McMartin Preschool and Franklin Scandal conspiracies, and how wrapped up people got in that shit, then, sure, you don't recognize the same old familiar conspiracy theory tune.

This forum BEGAN as a place to discuss a particular conspiracy theory - the Obama birther conspiracy. Was I "weirdly invested" in that as well?

Naturally, this forum attracted people, including me, who are fairly interested in conspiracy theory phenomena in general. Yes, as a personal interest in psychology, media and aspects of how people think and behave, I closely followed the 9/11 truther phenomenon, the birther thing, and a few odd others.

What is going on in social media culture - the feeding frenzy of complete speculation built on top of speculation - has a very familiar feel to it, and not having followed this one particularly closely until now, I'm curious about the factual basis.

So you can shove your personal observations and commentaries right up your ass if you can't have a conversation without attacking the motives of the person with whom you are conversing. Did I make some personal commentary about you and your weird investment in there being a pedophile ring? No. So chill with that bullshit.
What I'm seeing are suspicions
Okay, so if someone shows up and politely asks for facts, don't handwave and get personal. Just admit its all speculation.
Thanks pal.

User avatar
Sterngard Friegen
Posts: 44241
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:32 am
Location: Over the drawbridge

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#382

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:10 pm

Chilidog wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:03 pm
The thing that scares me....

There is a video recording out there of Dersh getting a "happy ending."

I don't want to see that.

:sick:
I wouldn't want to see it, but if it exists I'd sure like the authorities and the press to get hold of it, assuming it's with an underage girl.

User avatar
Res Ipsa
Posts: 2534
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:31 am

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#383

Post by Res Ipsa » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:11 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:53 am
Res, the CDs recovered at Epstein's New York house may be of interest. At this point we don't know if there are any other rich sick perverts, except that a few of the girls who were raped said Epstein passed them around.
Thank you for that succinct answer.
Thanks pal.

User avatar
voxpopuluxe
Posts: 354
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:18 pm

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#384

Post by voxpopuluxe » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:23 pm

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:08 pm
So you can shove your personal observations and commentaries right up your ass if you can't have a conversation without attacking the motives of the person with whom you are conversing. Did I make some personal commentary about you and your weird investment in there being a pedophile ring? No. So chill with that bullshit.
Are you a defense lawyer? Because you're awfully defensive, sweetie.
How deep could the Deep State go if the Deep State could go deep?

User avatar
Addie
Posts: 32538
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:22 am
Location: downstairs

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#385

Post by Addie » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:26 pm

I'm getting confused. Is this a different article?
New York Mag: ‘I Think He’s Engaged in Blackmail’: A Jeffrey Epstein Expert on Where He Made His Money

User avatar
Maybenaut
Posts: 5473
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:58 am
Location: Maybelot

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#386

Post by Maybenaut » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:25 pm

Addie wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:26 pm
I'm getting confused. Is this a different article?
New York Mag: ‘I Think He’s Engaged in Blackmail’: A Jeffrey Epstein Expert on Where He Made His Money
It's the same article.

I'm kinda with Res Ipsa on this... Folks are making *the argument* that there's a ring of pedophiles and Epstein made his money by blackmailing them. Other than one victim saying in the past that Epstein told her this, there isn't any evidence.

I think the allegation is probably more credible than pizzagate, but I don't think it's supported enough yet to get all "lock him up" about (by "him," I don't mean Epstein -- I mean those who might be in the ring).
"Hey! You know, we left this England place because it was bogus. So if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too." - Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
listeme
Posts: 5399
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:09 am

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#387

Post by listeme » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:43 pm

I'm interested in how one becomes a Jeffrey Epstein expert.

Wait, no. I'm not. :cantlook:

Anyway, it's definitely more credible than PIZZAGATE, omg. Pizzagate was born from someone mentioning pizzas in an email plus lunacy.

Everything is more credible than Pizzagate.

Anyway-two, my problem isn't with being skeptical. It's with insinuating/asserting that people here are acting Just Like Those Lunatics Out There, which isn't true. People here are chatting about all the stories in the news, some of which are more credible than others.
Maybenaut wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:25 pm
Addie wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:26 pm
I'm getting confused. Is this a different article?
New York Mag: ‘I Think He’s Engaged in Blackmail’: A Jeffrey Epstein Expert on Where He Made His Money
It's the same article.

I'm kinda with Res Ipsa on this... Folks are making *the argument* that there's a ring of pedophiles and Epstein made his money by blackmailing them. Other than one victim saying in the past that Epstein told her this, there isn't any evidence.

I think the allegation is probably more credible than pizzagate, but I don't think it's supported enough yet to get all "lock him up" about (by "him," I don't mean Epstein -- I mean those who might be in the ring).
We're used to being told it's our fault that men don't listen to us.

User avatar
Dan1100
Posts: 3364
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#388

Post by Dan1100 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:51 pm

Maybenaut wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:25 pm
Addie wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:26 pm
I'm getting confused. Is this a different article?
New York Mag: ‘I Think He’s Engaged in Blackmail’: A Jeffrey Epstein Expert on Where He Made His Money
It's the same article.

I'm kinda with Res Ipsa on this... Folks are making *the argument* that there's a ring of pedophiles and Epstein made his money by blackmailing them. Other than one victim saying in the past that Epstein told her this, there isn't any evidence.

I think the allegation is probably more credible than pizzagate, but I don't think it's supported enough yet to get all "lock him up" about (by "him," I don't mean Epstein -- I mean those who might be in the ring).
I think the open issue is that no seems to know how he made his giant pile of money. Everyone who ought to be an expert on how he could have done it says they don't have the slightest idea.

I don't think there is necessarily any more evidence for the blackmailing pedophiles theory than there is for laundering money for drug cartels or financing weapons for terrorists, but I don't think he made it by investing money for the uber rich with a 1 billion dollar buy in either.

Something criminal is up, they need to follow the money.
"Devin Nunes is having a cow over this."

-George Takei

User avatar
Kendra
Posts: 13238
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:53 am

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#389

Post by Kendra » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:55 pm

I'm willing to wait for the facts to come out and let the chips fall where they may. In the meantime, can I :daydream: of Dersch getting caught with his pants down (so long as there are pictures?) :cantlook:

User avatar
Chilidog
Posts: 9697
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:36 am

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#390

Post by Chilidog » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:56 pm

Someone out on the internet threw out that he was a mossad agent.

I doubt it.

User avatar
RoadScholar
Posts: 7873
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:25 am
Location: Baltimore
Occupation: Historic Restoration Woodworker
Contact:

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#391

Post by RoadScholar » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:27 pm

I too am skeptical of the "blackmail" speculations. Unlike with true pedophiles (assuming he and his party buddies weren't), having sex with "barely illegal" women is not easy to prove, even with, say, photographic evidence, and so I doubt the blackmail potential would be ripe for the picking.

Could be he engaged in blackmail over other stuff... money laundering, bribe taking, etc. That I could believe.

And, Res, you rubbed a lot of people the wrong way when you equated believing Epstein held underage-girl parties with Pizzagate believers. That is an insult to the intellect, and may explain (but not excuse?) the personal remarks you received.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
X3

User avatar
Res Ipsa
Posts: 2534
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:31 am

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#392

Post by Res Ipsa » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:54 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:27 pm
when you equated believing Epstein held underage-girl parties with Pizzagate believers
I made no reference to anyone here, and did not, in fact, make any reference to any discussion or person on this forum:
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:21 am
Now, from both left and right, there is this positive giddiness that the Epstein thing is going to blow the lid off of some long-simmering, wide-reaching pedophile conspiracy, of the likes of the "Satanic Panic" and its instances like the McMartin Pre-School, the Franklin Scandal, Pizzagate, and so on.

...

What I'm interested to know is what is the factual basis for the utter certainty with which various camps think there is yet another wide-ranging pedophile conspiracy.
Was that directed at you?

In what universe is that a personal comment directed toward anyone?

In case you haven't noticed it on the internet, there are Pizzagaters who are rejoicing that the Epstein thing has proven them right. So, absolutely, there is a direct overlap between Pizzagaters and persons who are giddily excited with Epstein speculation.

That's a fact. Learn to deal with facts.

This is a common conversational tactic used by conspiracy theorists. For example, in pointing out the wealth of red flags strongly suggesting the "Katie Johnson" thing is a probable hoax, on another forum, someone interjected "Oh, so you agree with what Roger Stone says about it." Or when discussing the fact that 9/11 was carried out by airplane hi-jackers, and not by invisible energy beams or planted silent explosives, being told "So, you agree with everything that the Bush administration says."

So, yes, there is a huge world of difference, Sweetie, between referring to the broader themes on Twitter and other internet fora generally, and being told I have a "weird obsession" of some kind in the context of discussing claims about an alleged pedophile ring. That's a very thinly veiled accusation, and don't you even try to pretend otherwise.

I expect that kind of shit from conspiracy mongers elsewhere, but not here. Maybe the standards here have lagged during my long absence.

From "the Jews drink the blood of Christian babies" to "the Gypsies are stealing the children", there is a long, well-documented human tendency to perpetuate certain tropes about groups of persons engaging in unspeakable shadowy conspiracies, typically involving the abuse of children.

What I find interesting about this one is that people on the left and the right are perfectly comfortable with their mutually-contradictory certitude that the Epstein indictment is going to blow the lid off of "the whole thing" with something of a tacit understanding among them about whatever that "whole thing" might be, involving entirely different sets of proposed persons in it.

A lot of it is simple guilt by association, and assertions of "they had to know", as if everyone likewise "had to know" that Bill Cosby was drugging and assaulting a whole roster of women over the years. There were plenty of people close to Bill Cosby who had no knowledge of it.

Now, there is a cottage industry, demonstrated by this sort of advertising:

Image

...focused PRECISELY on the kind of coin one can make by representing victims of the rich and powerful.

Wait, wait, don't tell me. Despite the very consistent picture of Epstein's "pattern", and despite the hay to be made by those with a pecuniary interest in expanding the pool of pockets to be dug into, then why aren't they coming up with a sizeable number of other perps to go after? Ooooh, I know, the plaintiff's lawyers are in on it, and confining it to Epstein!

As humans, we are no more different, and our wiring is no more sophisticated, than the people responsible for the Salem Witch Trials - or indeed the McMartin Preschool Trial which was a direct echo of a particularly dark quirk of human psychology, of which some people apparently take umbrage of being reminded.
Thanks pal.

User avatar
Addie
Posts: 32538
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:22 am
Location: downstairs

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#393

Post by Addie » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:27 pm

NBC News
Jeffrey Epstein tampered with witnesses, sent $350K to 2 people: prosecutors

Prosecutors said the payments were made last November just days after the publication of a bombshell Miami Herald story


Accused child sex predator Jeffrey Epstein wired a total of $350,000 to a pair of possible co-conspirators just days after the publication of a newspaper story alleging he sexually abused dozens of underage girls, federal prosecutors said Friday.

The prosecutors said the payments, which were made last November after the bombshell Miami Herald story came out, demonstrate Epstein's willingness to tamper with witnesses.

"This course of action, and in particular its timing, suggests the defendant was attempting to further influence co-conspirators who might provide information against him in light of the recently re-emerging allegations," the prosecutors wrote in court papers arguing that Epstein should remain behind bars until his trial.

Epstein's lawyers proposed that he be held under house arrest with electronic monitoring at his $77 million New York City mansion. But prosecutors said in the new court papers that the wealthy financier is worth more than $500 million and poses a considerable flight risk.

User avatar
Chilidog
Posts: 9697
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:36 am

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#394

Post by Chilidog » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:03 pm

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:54 pm

:snippity: :snippity: :snippity: :snippity:
Tl:dr

User avatar
Res Ipsa
Posts: 2534
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:31 am

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#395

Post by Res Ipsa » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:31 pm

Chilidog wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:03 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:54 pm

:snippity: :snippity: :snippity: :snippity:
Tl:dr
Grow up.
Thanks pal.

User avatar
Chilidog
Posts: 9697
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:36 am

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#396

Post by Chilidog » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:33 pm

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:31 pm
Chilidog wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:03 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:54 pm

:snippity: :snippity: :snippity: :snippity:
Tl:dr
Grow up.
That's better. It's not a 20 paragraph manifesto.

:like:

User avatar
RoadScholar
Posts: 7873
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:25 am
Location: Baltimore
Occupation: Historic Restoration Woodworker
Contact:

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#397

Post by RoadScholar » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:48 pm

Sure, sweetie. Our thinking ill of Jeffrey fucking Epstein is exactly the same as that which produced the Salem Witch Trials. No, wait we’re the new auto-da-fe! Everyone should expect the Spanish Inquisition! No, I got it, dearie... the Holocaust! I’m absolutely just like Adolf Hitler inside, because I don’t doubt for a second that rich sleazy men have thrown underage girl parties! Ack! I didn’t realize how evil and deluded I am. Now I gotta go build a bunker and kill myself!

Seriously?
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
X3

User avatar
bob
Posts: 26657
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:22 pm

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#398

Post by bob » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:59 pm

1. No personal attacks against members is a rule of this forum.
2. It applies to everyone.

/notamod
Imagex6 Imagex2 Imagex4 Imagex2

User avatar
Maybenaut
Posts: 5473
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:58 am
Location: Maybelot

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#399

Post by Maybenaut » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:00 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:48 pm
Sure, sweetie. Our thinking ill of Jeffrey fucking Epstein is exactly the same as that which produced the Salem Witch Trials. No, wait we’re the new auto-da-fe! Everyone should expect the Spanish Inquisition! No, I got it, dearie... the Holocaust! I’m absolutely just like Adolf Hitler inside, because I don’t doubt for a second that rich sleazy men have thrown underage girl parties! Ack! I didn’t realize how evil and deluded I am. Now I gotta go build a bunker and kill myself!

Seriously?
That's not what he said and you know it.
"Hey! You know, we left this England place because it was bogus. So if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too." - Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
fierceredpanda
Posts: 1809
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:04 pm
Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left past the picture of King George III

Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#400

Post by fierceredpanda » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:15 pm

:yeah:
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

Post Reply

Return to “Courts, Law, and Legal Issues”