2020 Census Citizenship question

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tek
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#276

Post by tek » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:28 pm

Notorial Dissent wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:20 pm
Somerset wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:49 pm
Dan1100 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:39 pm

The Great and Powerful Cheeto caves again, as predicted.
http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p1099036
I'm happy about this, but I wonder why he caved. It didn't look like he needed to.
Some other bright and shiny grabbed his attention. When you have the attention span[and IQ] of a spavened gnat it doesn't take much.

and/or it wasn't getting the press/social he wanted.
There's no way back
from there to here

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bob
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#277

Post by bob » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:29 pm

Off Topic
Dan1100 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:24 pm
sorry ladies for the politically incorrect language, but nothing else really fits.
Weakling, bully, blowhard, braggart, coward.

And I haven't even dipped into the thesaurus yet.
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SLQ
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#278

Post by SLQ » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:34 pm

Somerset wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:49 pm
Dan1100 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:39 pm
Volkonski wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:34 pm
:o


https://t.co/yZHn8Q50eU
The Great and Powerful Cheeto caves again, as predicted.
http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p1099036
I'm happy about this, but I wonder why he caved. It didn't look like he needed to.
He DID need to cave. There is an injunction in place, which SCOTUS refused to set aside.
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try."
-- Yoda

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SLQ
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#279

Post by SLQ » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:38 pm

Also, it's my understanding that they are already gathering the citizenship information in other ways. I saw an article or a talking head say that in the last week or so. I'll update if/when I find it.

So Trump saying they are going to collect the citizenship information in other ways is just more hot air intended to lessen the impact of backing down.

ETA: This is not where I heard it, which I think was on CNN by a guest who was someone I trust. But here's what VOX says:
The Trump administration is correct in the technical sense: 2010 was the only year that no survey conducted as part of the US census asked about citizenship. But the critics are also correct: Citizenship hasn’t been a question on the mandatory census survey since 1950.

The real point of contention, therefore, is whether the American Community Survey — the sampling-based, more frequent survey that can’t be used for allotting seats in Congress — gives the government all the information it needs about citizenship, or whether it needs to have mandatory, enumerated official census data.
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try."
-- Yoda

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Sterngard Friegen
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#280

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:38 pm

I suspect there was pressure on Trump from -- of all sources -- his Attorney General who was hearing from the lawyers working under him that they would give up the goods in the district courts or resign. Faced with that lose-lose situation Barr had to tell Trump it could no longer be done. If Barr and Trump pressed there be be yet another humiliation for Barr (whereas Trump would survive it consequence-free as he always does).

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SLQ
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#281

Post by SLQ » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:51 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:38 pm
I suspect there was pressure on Trump from -- of all sources -- his Attorney General who was hearing from the lawyers working under him that they would give up the goods in the district courts or resign. Faced with that lose-lose situation Barr had to tell Trump it could no longer be done. If Barr and Trump pressed there be be yet another humiliation for Barr (whereas Trump would survive it consequence-free as he always does).
:yeah:
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try."
-- Yoda

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Chilidog
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#282

Post by Chilidog » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:55 pm

bob wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:29 pm
Off Topic
Dan1100 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:24 pm
sorry ladies for the politically incorrect language, but nothing else really fits.
Weakling, bully, blowhard, braggart, coward.

And I haven't even dipped into the thesaurus yet.
Wuss

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Dan1100
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#283

Post by Dan1100 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:56 pm

Chilidog wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:55 pm
bob wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:29 pm
Off Topic
Dan1100 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:24 pm
sorry ladies for the politically incorrect language, but nothing else really fits.
Weakling, bully, blowhard, braggart, coward.

And I haven't even dipped into the thesaurus yet.
Wuss
Wuss works, post edited.
"Devin Nunes is having a cow over this."

-George Takei

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Chilidog
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#284

Post by Chilidog » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:01 pm

:like:

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bob
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#285

Post by bob » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:37 pm

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AndyinPA
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#286

Post by AndyinPA » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:41 pm

SLQ wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:38 pm
Also, it's my understanding that they are already gathering the citizenship information in other ways. I saw an article or a talking head say that in the last week or so. I'll update if/when I find it.

So Trump saying they are going to collect the citizenship information in other ways is just more hot air intended to lessen the impact of backing down.

ETA: This is not where I heard it, which I think was on CNN by a guest who was someone I trust. But here's what VOX says:
The Trump administration is correct in the technical sense: 2010 was the only year that no survey conducted as part of the US census asked about citizenship. But the critics are also correct: Citizenship hasn’t been a question on the mandatory census survey since 1950.

The real point of contention, therefore, is whether the American Community Survey — the sampling-based, more frequent survey that can’t be used for allotting seats in Congress — gives the government all the information it needs about citizenship, or whether it needs to have mandatory, enumerated official census data.
I read something about ICE going into state drivers' license information. Is this what you were thinking of?

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fierceredpanda
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#287

Post by fierceredpanda » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:43 pm

Something in his remarks just now made me think of this:

Every other American president has used "we" and "us" to describe the United States as a whole. Donald Trump says things like "the courts have been, frankly, very unfair to us," and there lies the difference. To him, "we" and "us" refer only to him and his supporters. There is no "we" beyond Team Trump.

It's really gross.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

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AndyinPA
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#288

Post by AndyinPA » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:46 pm

:like:

Much the same way he only considers his base worthy of "working" for.

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bob
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#289

Post by bob » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:58 pm

NPR: Trump Orders Agencies To Share Data On Noncitizens:
President Trump announced Thursday he would sign an executive order to obtain data about the U.S. citizenship and non-citizenship status of everyone living in the United States.

In a Rose Garden ceremony, Trump said he would drop efforts to include a citizenship question on the 2020 census. Instead, he'll sign an executive order directing all U.S. agencies to provide the Department of Commerce all information they have on the U.S. citizenship, non-citizenship and immigration status.
Which was essentially the census bureau's position all along.

:brickwallsmall:
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ZekeB
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#290

Post by ZekeB » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:05 pm

AndyinPA wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:41 pm
I read something about ICE going into state drivers' license information. Is this what you were thinking of?
I doubt that would prove anything. I have a Real ID drivers license, but I didn't have to get one. Some states aren't participating in the Real ID program.
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Sterngard Friegen
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#291

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:11 pm

bob wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:58 pm
NPR: Trump Orders Agencies To Share Data On Noncitizens:
President Trump announced Thursday he would sign an executive order to obtain data about the U.S. citizenship and non-citizenship status of everyone living in the United States.

In a Rose Garden ceremony, Trump said he would drop efforts to include a citizenship question on the 2020 census. Instead, he'll sign an executive order directing all U.S. agencies to provide the Department of Commerce all information they have on the U.S. citizenship, non-citizenship and immigration status.
Which was essentially the census bureau's position all along.

:brickwallsmall:
Yabbut what happens when Trump directs the census workers to orally request that information, thus intimidating non citizens?

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RVInit
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#292

Post by RVInit » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:23 pm

What Stern said.

I guarantee they will be very selective about recruiting census takers. I hope liberals will realize this and swarm to apply for those jobs. I am really concerned about this entire administration and how they operate.
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DrIrvingFinegarten
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#293

Post by DrIrvingFinegarten » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:27 pm

fierceredpanda wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:43 pm
Something in his remarks just now made me think of this:

Every other American president has used "we" and "us" to describe the United States as a whole. Donald Trump says things like "the courts have been, frankly, very unfair to us," and there lies the difference. To him, "we" and "us" refer only to him and his supporters. There is no "we" beyond Team Trump.

It's really gross.
A lot of people who voted for him voted for him because he was a businessman and he would run the country like a business.

Well, what responsibility does the CEO of GM have to Ford drivers?

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bob
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#294

Post by bob » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:36 pm

This appears to be the (now D - E - D) proposed citizenship question:

U.S. citizenship due to birth in the United States (without respect to the parents' citizenship)? That sounds like ... birthright citizenship. (Yaknow, that thing the president grumbled last October about doing away with via an executive order.)

:think:
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AndyinPA
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#295

Post by AndyinPA » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:44 pm

ZekeB wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:05 pm
AndyinPA wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:41 pm
I read something about ICE going into state drivers' license information. Is this what you were thinking of?
I doubt that would prove anything. I have a Real ID drivers license, but I didn't have to get one. Some states aren't participating in the Real ID program.
PA is one of the last ones to participate. My husband just renewed license and got his Real ID. As I only fly internationally, I'll wait another three years for mine. The federal government didn't give PA much choice. But very soon, I think, if I didn't have my passport for ID, I would't be able to fly within the US.

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bob
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#296

Post by bob » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:45 pm

FOX: Trump, 'not backing down' in effort to count citizens amid census fight, announces executive order:
President Trump, speaking at the White House on Thursday, announced that he would "immediately" issue an executive order to get an accurate count of non-citizens and citizens in the United States -- a measure Trump said would be "far more accurate" than relying on a citizenship question in the 2020 census.
If the census was such an inferior method, then why the big push to put it on the census? :think:
Speaking after Trump, Attorney General Bill Barr said the information collected via the executive order could be useful in determining the makeup of the Electoral College and congressional apportionment.

"That information will be used for countless purposes. For example, there is a current dispute over whether illegal aliens can be included for apportionment purposes. ... We will be studying this issue," Barr said.
"Studying" is bureaucraticese for "punting."

"Could be useful"? To call that weaksauce would be an insult to sauce.

FOX is funny:
Additionally, Barr slammed media reports that the White House would issue an executive order in an attempt to illegally force a citizenship question on the census. “In the hysterical mode of the day,” Barr said, media outlets speculated that Trump would simply add the question to the census unilaterally.

"This has never been under consideration," Barr said.

* * *

The president had said last week that he was "very seriously" considering an executive order to try to force the citizenship question's inclusion.
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SLQ
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#297

Post by SLQ » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:48 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:11 pm
bob wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:58 pm
NPR: Trump Orders Agencies To Share Data On Noncitizens:
President Trump announced Thursday he would sign an executive order to obtain data about the U.S. citizenship and non-citizenship status of everyone living in the United States.

In a Rose Garden ceremony, Trump said he would drop efforts to include a citizenship question on the 2020 census. Instead, he'll sign an executive order directing all U.S. agencies to provide the Department of Commerce all information they have on the U.S. citizenship, non-citizenship and immigration status.
Which was essentially the census bureau's position all along.

:brickwallsmall:
Yabbut what happens when Trump directs the census workers to orally request that information, thus intimidating non citizens?
Or what about when Trump uses the information gathered by other agencies to "correct" the census numbers used to determine representation, based on citizenship, when the census is supposed to be based on population?
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try."
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TexasFilly
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#298

Post by TexasFilly » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:53 pm

Bill Barr's Bullshit today was pathetic.

This census process will require even more lawyers to carefully monitor the shenanigans.

It would be nice if the House would get off their asses and file some law suits NOW to enforce subpoenas. I have no idea what they are waiting for, but right now there is no effective oversight over any of the Executive Branch.
I love the poorly educated!!!

I believe Anita Hill! I believe Dr. Ford!

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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#299

Post by fierceredpanda » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:10 pm

TexasFilly wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:53 pm
Bill Barr's Bullshit today was pathetic.

This census process will require even more lawyers to carefully monitor the shenanigans.

It would be nice if the House would get off their asses and file some law suits NOW to enforce subpoenas. I have no idea what they are waiting for, but right now there is no effective oversight over any of the Executive Branch.
Yes to all of this.

I have been very patient with Pelosi's strategy, but at this point, I don't get it. The Executive is completely running amok, and the Legislative Branch is making no effort to actually do anything about it.

Also, I never thought there would be an AG in my lifetime that did more to damage the Department of Justice and bring disrepute upon my profession than Alberto Gonzales, but I have no hesitation in saying that Bill Barr has already surpassed Mr. "I don't recall" by some fair distance.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

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Notorial Dissent
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#300

Post by Notorial Dissent » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:24 pm

While I agree with you, realistically just what can the current legislature do? The House can hold all the hearings they want, but the Senate will not back them up and the DOJ is pretty much a part of the problem now.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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