2020 Census Citizenship question

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bob
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#301

Post by bob » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:30 pm

Notorial Dissent wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:24 pm
The House can hold all the hearings they want, but the Senate will not back them up and the DOJ is pretty much a part of the problem now.
The House has been asking (i.e., subpoenas!) about the decision making behind the citizenship question. And the administration hasn't been answering.

Setting up yet another round of: Contempt of Congress.
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TexasFilly
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#302

Post by TexasFilly » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:31 pm

Notorial Dissent wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:24 pm
While I agree with you, realistically just what can the current legislature do? The House can hold all the hearings they want, but the Senate will not back them up and the DOJ is pretty much a part of the problem now.
Go to court to enforce subpoenas. Barr just needs a federal judge or two to slap him around and sanction him for making up legal theories to stop witnesses from testifying (and thereby obstructing Congressional investigations).

I've lost patience with Pelosi. I thought she was great during the shutdown but the House has NO coherent communications strategy (probably should start a new thread on this), they look like a bunch of bumbling incompetents themselves, and they could well lose the next election.
I love the poorly educated!!!

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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#303

Post by RVInit » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:42 pm

TexasFilly wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:31 pm
Notorial Dissent wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:24 pm
While I agree with you, realistically just what can the current legislature do? The House can hold all the hearings they want, but the Senate will not back them up and the DOJ is pretty much a part of the problem now.
Go to court to enforce subpoenas. Barr just needs a federal judge or two to slap him around and sanction him for making up legal theories to stop witnesses from testifying (and thereby obstructing Congressional investigations).

I've lost patience with Pelosi. I thought she was great during the shutdown but the House has NO coherent communications strategy (probably should start a new thread on this), they look like a bunch of bumbling incompetents themselves, and they could well lose the next election.
This. All of it. I've had it, they are just going through motions, all these hearings and nobody is paying attention to it AT ALL. They are allowing this administration make them look like fools.
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#304

Post by ZekeB » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:21 pm

Let one of the census takers ask me if I'm a citizen and my response will be, "is that question on the census form?" IMO they already ask too many questions, especially about my income. I'm sure the IRS can provide that information about my neighborhood without giving information about specific people.
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Sugar Magnolia
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#305

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:07 pm

ZekeB wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:21 pm
Let one of the census takers ask me if I'm a citizen and my response will be, "is that question on the census form?" IMO they already ask too many questions, especially about my income. I'm sure the IRS can provide that information about my neighborhood without giving information about specific people.
Fortunately, a census taker has never had to actually show up at our door since we mail it back in. I think it's supposed to be on-line this year too? Not sure where I heard that or if it's even right, though. I think the usual response rate for mail ins is around 75%, so not everybody gets a personal visit.

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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#306

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:37 pm

fierceredpanda wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:10 pm
TexasFilly wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:53 pm
Bill Barr's Bullshit today was pathetic.

This census process will require even more lawyers to carefully monitor the shenanigans.

It would be nice if the House would get off their asses and file some law suits NOW to enforce subpoenas. I have no idea what they are waiting for, but right now there is no effective oversight over any of the Executive Branch.
Yes to all of this.

I have been very patient with Pelosi's strategy, but at this point, I don't get it. The Executive is completely running amok, and the Legislative Branch is making no effort to actually do anything about it.

Also, I never thought there would be an AG in my lifetime that did more to damage the Department of Justice and bring disrepute upon my profession than Alberto Gonzales, but I have no hesitation in saying that Bill Barr has already surpassed Mr. "I don't recall" by some fair distance.
Here's the problem in a nutshell: Trump is appealing to his base to get re-elected and doing whatever the hell he wants to rat fuck everybody else. McConnell is appealing to Trump's base to get avoid primary challenges, to get re-elected and to keep a majority in the Senate. Pelosi is appealing to the Democratic base in Trump states to keep her majority in the House and to get everybody in her caucus re-elected (except perhaps 4 women of color).

In other words, everybody is trying to remain in power, to retain power, and to get re-elected. No one is doing what the voters demand of them.

We're fucked.

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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#307

Post by Dan1100 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:39 pm

ZekeB wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:21 pm
Let one of the census takers ask me if I'm a citizen and my response will be, "is that question on the census form?" IMO they already ask too many questions, especially about my income. I'm sure the IRS can provide that information about my neighborhood without giving information about specific people.
The way the citizen question was worded, asking where you were born, I was going to go with, "I don't remember being born and my parents were liars who told me that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy were all real, so I really can't say for sure."
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#308

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:48 pm

Dan1100 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:39 pm
ZekeB wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:21 pm
Let one of the census takers ask me if I'm a citizen and my response will be, "is that question on the census form?" IMO they already ask too many questions, especially about my income. I'm sure the IRS can provide that information about my neighborhood without giving information about specific people.
The way the citizen question was worded, asking where you were born, I was going to go with, "I don't remember being born and my parents were liars who told me that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy were all real, so I really can't say for sure."
Well, then, you also don't know when you were born.

Date and place of birth are two facts people are allowed to testify to which are based on hearsay (to them).

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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#309

Post by ZekeB » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:50 pm

Dan1100 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:39 pm
The way the citizen question was worded, asking where you were born, I was going to go with, "I don't remember being born and my parents were liars who told me that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy were all real, so I really can't say for sure."
What if both my parents were here on behalf of a foreign government? What if I'm a naturalized citizen? The only way to know the citizenship answer for certain is to ask the question.
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Dan1100
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#310

Post by Dan1100 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:12 pm

ZekeB wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:50 pm
Dan1100 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:39 pm
The way the citizen question was worded, asking where you were born, I was going to go with, "I don't remember being born and my parents were liars who told me that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy were all real, so I really can't say for sure."
What if both my parents were here on behalf of a foreign government? What if I'm a naturalized citizen? The only way to know the citizenship answer for certain is to ask the question.
Here is the question. I was going to answer the Naturalization question, "Not that I am aware of..."
FT_18.03.29_CensusCitizenship_feature.jpg
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SLQ
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#311

Post by SLQ » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:02 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:48 pm
Dan1100 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:39 pm
ZekeB wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:21 pm
Let one of the census takers ask me if I'm a citizen and my response will be, "is that question on the census form?" IMO they already ask too many questions, especially about my income. I'm sure the IRS can provide that information about my neighborhood without giving information about specific people.
The way the citizen question was worded, asking where you were born, I was going to go with, "I don't remember being born and my parents were liars who told me that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy were all real, so I really can't say for sure."
Well, then, you also don't know when you were born.

Date and place of birth are two facts people are allowed to testify to which are based on hearsay (to them).
Except, of course, if you're the first Black U.S. president, you have a funny name, and the the eople asking refuse to accept any proof.
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Chilidog
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#312

Post by Chilidog » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:06 am

In his order, the other day, Judge Furman indicated that a sanctions motion was in play in the New York case.

1) Does the latest move by the OSG renders the underlying lawsuit moot?

2) what about the sanctions motion?

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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#313

Post by fierceredpanda » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:38 am

Chilidog wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:06 am
In his order, the other day, Judge Furman indicated that a sanctions motion was in play in the New York case.

1) Does the latest move by the OSG renders the underlying lawsuit moot?

2) what about the sanctions motion?
1) Probably, IMO. The relief requested (e.g., an injunction barring the government from asking the question) is a fait accompli, because the government isn't going to ask the question.

2) Except for that part. A motion for sanctions on account of chicanery by the other party can survive a dismissal for mootness. However - and more civil-oriented attorneys here may well disagree with me - in my opinion, a forthcoming sanctions motion was the impetus for a lot of what happened yesterday. The plaintiffs' strongest case for sanctions was that the defendants (read: the Government) and their counsel represented to multiple federal courts that the whole thing absolutely, positively had to be wrapped by 6/30 in order to print the census, and then sought to continue the litigation after that deadline anyway, revealing the whole deadline assertion to be a great big lie. The other party making provably false statements to federal judges is about as solid a case for sanctions as you're ever likely to see.

Moreover, the DOJ's failed attempt to swap counsel could well have been an attempt to protect those attorneys from being personally sanctioned for their false statements to the courts, hence the order in the one case insisting that any attorney seeking to withdraw must first consent to submit to the jurisdiction of the court for the purposes of sanctions. In other words: "Your lying ass ain't crawling away that easy, counselor."
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#314

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:27 am

I concur. The spectre of a platoon of DoJ careerists being held in contempt for the Government's lies, and having to spill the beans to protect themselves is probably what caused Barr, the sycophant, to go to Trump and tell him it was over. Then the spinmeisters got together to create a b.s. cover story so that Trump could win. So much winning.

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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#315

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:08 am

What are the odds of Furman holding those attorneys in contempt? My experience with federal judges never had chicanery involved, but they are sensitive about the goings on in their courtroom and what is stated in the filed documents. This seems an ideal case to add salt to Barr's wound.
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#316

Post by Addie » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:20 am

Daily Beast: Trump Lost on the Census, but the Scandal Is Just Getting Started

Trump officials will have to answer for hatching a secret plan to weaponize the census against immigrant communities and then lying about it over and over again.
Adding:
Axios: Trump's cave on Census stuns allies

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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#317

Post by Slim Cognito » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:24 am

Addie wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:20 am
Daily Beast: Trump Lost on the Census, but the Scandal Is Just Getting Started

Trump officials will have to answer for hatching a secret plan to weaponize the census against immigrant communities and then lying about it over and over again.
Bet they don't.
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#318

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:49 am

I believe the lawsuits are moot once a permanent injunction issues preventing future shenanigans. I doubt the judges will pursue the lawyers any further.

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Notorial Dissent
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#319

Post by Notorial Dissent » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:27 am

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:49 am
I believe the lawsuits are moot once a permanent injunction issues preventing future shenanigans. I doubt the judges will pursue the lawyers any further.
Unless they insist on continuing with stupid self career destructive behaviors, you, mean.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#320

Post by SLQ » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:40 am

The outstanding sanctions motion is a discovery sanctions motion related to a motion to compel. It is due today. So we will soon know what the plaintiffs' view is on whether sanctions are moot. (Plaintiffs' Defendants' (government) response to plaintiff's motion to amend the complaint is also due today.)
SLQ wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:32 pm
Here's the entry from Recap for docket #605:
605

Jun 5, 2019

SCHEDULING ORDER terminating 595 Letter Motion to Compel. As discussed on the record at the conference held this afternoon, Plaintiffs shall file any motion for sanctions or other relief (including any request for discovery) and serve it on any party against whom relief is sought by July 12, 2019. Any opposition-whether by Defendants or by any non-party against whom relief is sought-shall be filed by July 26, 2019. Any reply shall be filed by August 2, 2019. At the time any reply is served, Plaintiffs shall deliver or mail one courtesy hard copy of all motion papers to the Court. The Clerk of Court is directed to terminate Docket No. 595. (Signed by Judge Jesse M. Furman on 6/5/2019) (mro) (Entered: 06/05/2019)
ETA: So it appears that at least the sanctions motion in #605 is related to discovery (probably failing to provide the actual racial reason for the census question, which they got from (I think) the daughter of a consultant who passed away?)

and 617:
617

Jul 5, 2019

ORDER with respect to 616 Motion to Amend Judgment on Remand Pursuant to Rule 59(e) or for Injunctive Relief Pursuant to the All Writs Act. Defendants shall file any opposition to Plaintiffs' motion by July 12, 2019; Plaintiffs shall file any reply by July 16, 2019. The parties shall appear for oral argument on July 23, 2019, at 2:30 p.m. (HEREBY ORDERED by Judge Jesse M. Furman)(Text Only Order) (Furman, Jesse) (Entered: 07/05/2019)
ETA: To name the right party for the response due today on the motion to amend.
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#321

Post by SLQ » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:41 pm

Except: Here is the docket since Judge Furman entered his order denying withdrawal of the attorneys:

625

Jul 11, 2019

CONSENT LETTER MOTION for Leave to File Excess Pages addressed to Judge Jesse M. Furman from Elena Goldstein dated July 11, 2019. Document filed by ADC Research Instittue, Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee, CASA de Maryland, Make the Road -- New York, New York Immigration Coalition, State Of New York.(Goldstein, Elena) (Entered: 07/11/2019)

Motion for Leave to File Excess Pages

626

Jul 11, 2019

ORDER granting 625 Letter Motion for Leave to File Excess Pages. Plaintiffs' motion for excess pages is GRANTED on consent of Defendants. The page limits for both Plaintiffs' and Defendants' principal briefs in connection with Plaintiffs' forthcoming motion for sanctions and other relief are enlarged to 35 pages. (HEREBY ORDERED by Judge Jesse M. Furman)(Text Only Order) (Furman, Jesse) (Entered: 07/11/2019)

627

Jul 11, 2019

NOTICE of LETTER NOTICE OF EXECUTIVE ORDER. Document filed by Bureau of the Census, Ron S. Jarmin, Wilbur L. Ross, Jr., United States Department of Commerce. (Attachments: # 1 Executive Order)(Schiffer, Daniel) (Entered: 07/11/2019)

Notice (Other)

Attach­ment 1

Executive Order

628

Jul 12, 2019

MEMO ENDORSEMENT on re: 627 Notice (Other) filed by Wilbur L. Ross, Jr., United States Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census, Ron S. Jarmin. ENDORSEMENT: All dates and deadlines remain in effect, including today's deadline for Defendants to respond to Plaintiffs' motion to alter or amend the judgment. The parties shall confer promptly about the need for further proceedings in connection with that motion, and in the event of any stipulated resolution, shall immediately file an executed stipulation on ECF. SO ORDERED. (Signed by Judge Jesse M. Furman on 7/12/2019) (ne) (Entered: 07/12/2019)

629

Jul 12, 2019

JOINT LETTER MOTION for Extension of Time regarding today's briefing deadlines, on behalf of all parties with permission addressed to Judge Jesse M. Furman from Matthew Colangelo dated July 12, 2019. Document filed by State Of New York.(Colangelo, Matthew) (Entered: 07/12/2019)
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Chilidog
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#322

Post by Chilidog » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:52 pm

That doesn't sound like the judge is going to say, "no harm, no foul."

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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#323

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:07 pm

Chilidog wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:52 pm
That doesn't sound like the judge is going to say, "no harm, no foul."
This part does, to me:
The parties shall confer promptly about the need for further proceedings in connection with that motion, and in the event of any stipulated resolution, shall immediately file an executed stipulation on ECF. SO ORDERED.

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Dolly
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#324

Post by Dolly » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:12 am

Thanks for posting the proposed citizenship question image. I couldn't find it in my messy notes. I remember thinking that WHAT or HOW it was asked didn't mean that if a person answered "NO not a citizen" it would mean they were "illegal". This would include Permanent Residents and Visa holders. I gave up trying to figure out the Voting Rights reasoning.

FWIW Below are some random Odds and Ends, things I have read and been thinking about.

April 22, 2019
Why Are They Asking That? What Everyone Needs to Know About 2020 Census Questions
......
How Are Census Data Collected?
In 2020, households will have the option of responding online, by mail, or by phone. The Census Bureau expects many households to complete the questionnaire online, using instructions received in the mail. These instructions will also include information about how to respond by phone. Some households will receive a printed questionnaire which they can mail, postage-free, back to the Census Bureau. A small percentage of households, primarily located in remote areas of the country, will be visited by a census taker who will help collect the necessary information to complete the form.

Who Receives the Census Questionnaire and How Is It Filled Out?
<big snip - more questions and explanations - general overview not just about the Citizenship question>
https://www.prb.org/why-are-they-asking ... questions/
2020 Census Research, Operational Plans, and Oversight
..................
In the years leading up to 2020, we conducted research in four areas that focus on the major cost drivers of the census:
Using the Internet to increase self-response.
Using existing government data sources to answer census questions and reduce follow-up workload.
Automating operations to increase productivity and reduce staff and offices.
Using existing maps and address to reflect changes rather than walking every block in every neighborhood in the country.
.......................
https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys ... about.html

I found this link interesting. Some of the questions in earlier questionnaires about ownership of TVs, radios, freezers and such.
You are here: Census.gov › History › Through the Decades › Questionnaires
<sample forms for viewing>

BONUS PHOTO


President Obama completes his 2010 Census questionnaire.

https://www.census.gov/history/www/thro ... ionnaires/

I don't remember this about the printing company. From wikipedia
2020 United States Census
<big snip>

Implementation problems
The printing company Cenveo won the $61 million contract in October 2017 to produce census forms and reminders, but went bankrupt less than four months later. The Inspector General of the U.S. Government Publishing Office said the agency failed to check the company's financial status, and improperly allowed the company to lower its bid after other bids were unsealed.[9]

Citizenship question debate
The U.S. decennial census is used to determine federal funds, grants and support to states. The Census Bureau had included a citizenship question until 1950 when it was removed, though it continued to include a question asking about place of birth.[10] In a January 2018 memo, an initial evaluation by Census Bureau officials advised against such a question, saying that compiling citizenship data from existing administrative records is more accurate and far less expensive. However, Wilbur Ross, secretary of the United States Department of Commerce which oversees the Census Bureau, decided the administrative approach alone would not be sufficient.[11] The Census Bureau announced in March 2018 its plan to add a question related to citizenship for the 2020 census: "Is this person a citizen of the United States?".[12] [13][14] For the 2020 Census, Ross stated to Congress that the citizenship numbers were necessary to enforce the Voting Rights Act's protection against voting discrimination.[13] Ross stated to Congress that the citizenship question was requested by the Justice Department and approved by him.[15]
<snip>
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Un ... tes_Census
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Dan1100
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Re: 2020 Census Citizenship question

#325

Post by Dan1100 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:18 am

Dolly wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:12 am
:snippity: I gave up trying to figure out the Voting Rights reasoning.

:snippity:
[/quote]

There was no Voting Rights reasoning. That was the obviously lie that wasn't good enough for Roberts.
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