UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

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SLQ
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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#51

Post by SLQ » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:56 am

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:29 pm
:happyfamily: We won! Excellent news SLQ, hearty congratulations!! :happyfamily:

I've just read the thread back and it's fascinating to see the thoughts and arguments develop. Clearly you put a lot of effort into producing a very effective document, and bouncing ideas off your expert colleagues here helped you in the process of refining it to be slick and persuasive. And it worked! Learning from one's own experience is powerful, but learning from others' experience is turbocharged.

Awesome work, well done! :thumbs:
Yes, we won in that the judge got what we said in the brief. That's amazing to me tonight, after years of dealing with it.
:happyfamily: :grouphug: :happyfamily:


The judge was clearly very irked. She was using her angry voice. And our case was second on a docket of about 6 cases. So there was an audience. :thumbs:
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try."
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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#52

Post by SLQ » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:12 am

Maybenaut wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:45 pm
Congrats! Appellate argument is nerve-wracking even when you have the law and facts on your side. Because you just never know. As an advocate, all you can do is tell the Court what you think - you can’t make them agree with you. So it is such a relief when they do because there is always that little niggling doubt. Did I say enough? Did I say too much? How much shrift are they giving the misdirection?
Exactly. And you know I'm second guessing things I said at oral argument. Could I have said it better? Why didn't I say this? But I'm happy with it overall.
So glad for you!
I'm so happy that I don't know what to do with myself tonight. I called my client, of course. Then met a friend for lunch who has supported me through this. Then I did a little work/e-mails. Then I took myself to dinner and had a cocktail. Now I'm back home and feeling at odds. It's pretty hard to shift from "How does he get away with this?" to "He was called on the carpet and the bad stuff is now exposed." Moar will be revealed about what has gone on these last few years.
I know you don’t have the decision yet, but it sounds like it went well. Keep us posted!
Will do. I don't have a clue when the opinion will come out. The last two cases I had up on appeal came down in 1-3 weeks (apparently pre-written). But then I cited a case in my additional authorities where the opinion came down August 12 and it was argued in February. It involved attorney misconduct and withholding of evidence, but it was a major case because it involved the whole superior court and their back-door interaction with the guardian ad litems.
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try."
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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#53

Post by SLQ » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:15 am

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:00 pm
I missed this thread because it was during my hiatus, but I am so glad to read about the result (so far).
Thank you, Stern. See my response to Maybenaut about how amazing this is to me.
What would be fitting would be a resounding appellate victory with a final paragraph directing the clerk of the court to send a copy of the opinion to the state bar.
:pray: :pray: :pray: This is my fondest wish at the moment.
Please let us know how it comes out. (And if we PM you, can you send us a copy of the opinion when issued?)
Yes, I can. But, as I said, moar will be revealed in that opinion, so keep that in mind.
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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#54

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:16 am

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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#55

Post by Northland10 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:19 am

Judge: Define “disclose.”
IANAL, but even I would not want jurist to say that to me. It's an easy tell that they are on to the game-playing.

I do wonder why some lawyers don't realize that people may easily see through their games. A colleague with an attorney background was making a presentation about a new thing. During the Q/A, another colleague of mine asked a logical question (to which we knew there was no real answer). The one making the presentation said, "I'm glad you asked that question." I wonder how she could not realize that people (especially us data analysts in the room) would see that statement as "here comes the bs."

Okay, in honesty, it was a bit of a setup to demonstrate a gaping whole in the new thing. We knew it, and made sure others saw it as well.
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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#56

Post by SLQ » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:54 am

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:16 am
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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#57

Post by Foggy » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:39 am

I'm crossing ALL my fingers and toes. :pray: :pray: :pray:
Any time my questions are all fully answered, I know I'm asking the wrong questions. - Bernard Samson

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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#58

Post by Chilidog » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:22 pm

Foggy wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:39 am
I'm crossing ALL my fingers and toes. :pray: :pray: :pray:
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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#59

Post by SLQ » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:44 am

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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#60

Post by Jeffrey » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:19 pm

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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#61

Post by Somerset » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:25 pm

Jeffrey wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:19 pm
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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#62

Post by Jeffrey » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:31 pm

True. English and Spanish.

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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#63

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:41 pm

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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#64

Post by bob » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:10 pm

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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#65

Post by Grumpy Old Guy » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:29 pm

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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#66

Post by SLQ » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:41 pm

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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#67

Post by Maybenaut » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:29 pm

bob wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:10 pm
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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#68

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:19 pm

I can tell how an appellate panel is going to decide no later than the first question. When it comes to SCOTUS most of us can tell when the Court grants cert.

The art of appellate advocacy is overblown. The only place where argument is of any utility these days is closing argument to the jury.

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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#69

Post by SLQ » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:26 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:19 pm
I can tell how an appellate panel is going to decide no later than the first question. When it comes to SCOTUS most of us can tell when the Court grants cert.

The art of appellate advocacy is overblown. The only place where argument is of any utility these days is closing argument to the jury.
I now have a sign saying "Why is that funny?" hanging in my office. It was at that moment (the first question to OC) that I knew the panel got it and wasn't going to let OC get away with what he had gotten away with in the past.
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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#70

Post by Maybenaut » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:39 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:19 pm
I can tell how an appellate panel is going to decide no later than the first question. When it comes to SCOTUS most of us can tell when the Court grants cert.

The art of appellate advocacy is overblown. The only place where argument is of any utility these days is closing argument to the jury.
I don’t disagree with any of that. Our appellate system is slightly different than the appellate system in the civilian world. On appeal in the military we are actually allowed to argue the factual sufficiency of the evidence, as opposed to merely the legal sufficiency. The court is permitted to gauge the credibility of witnesses.

So one section of our appellate brief Is always dedicated to factual sufficiency. And it is exactly like presenting another closing argument. But we almost never ask to discuss factual sufficiency at oral argument because the last thing we want is the court asking us to concede factual issues.

And it used to be that the defense hardly ever won on factual sufficiency. In the last couple years, after Congress started meddling with the UCMJ (which had worked perfectly fine for decades), the military Courts of Criminal Appeals are more likely to set aside a conviction based on the factual insufficiency of the evidence. It is, until Congress takes that power away, too.
"Hey! You know, we left this England place because it was bogus. So if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#71

Post by bob » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:17 pm

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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#72

Post by Maybenaut » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:04 pm

bob wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:17 pm
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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#73

Post by bob » Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:10 pm

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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#74

Post by Reality Check » Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:14 pm

Maybenaut wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:04 pm
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Re: UPDATE: Advice requested on brief language -- IAALs and IANALs welcome

#75

Post by Maybenaut » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:23 pm

Reality Check wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:14 pm
Maybenaut wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:04 pm
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