Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

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Mikedunford
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#176

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:25 pm

maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:22 pm
Reality Check wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:22 pm
maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:13 pm
What "they" do is up to them. I refuse to shut up just because "they" might get some enjoyment out of me speaking out. I have the right to say that I'm uncomfortable with Senator Warren presenting herself in a certain way; and for so many people here to take me to task for it is to play right into "their" hands, because "they" are the side who want to stifle dissent. We support free speech? Then let's show it in our treatment to each other. We can't say we support our Constitutional rights if we pressure each other into not practicing them.
Umm, where in the Constitution does it say you can post a comment on the Fogbow without being criticized? You can post what you want and barring it being removed by the moderators it stands. However, there is no First Amendment right to have your views go unchallenged last time I looked.
But people aren't challenging my view, they're telling me that I'm doing the GOP's dirty work for them, calling me a Trump stooge, and telling me to shut up. None of that is actually criticising anything I'm saying, it's criticising my right to say it.
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

It's not something that's been restricted to this thread, either.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#177

Post by maydijo » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:29 pm

John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:25 pm
maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:22 pm
Reality Check wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:22 pm


Umm, where in the Constitution does it say you can post a comment on the Fogbow without being criticized? You can post what you want and barring it being removed by the moderators it stands. However, there is no First Amendment right to have your views go unchallenged last time I looked.
But people aren't challenging my view, they're telling me that I'm doing the GOP's dirty work for them, calling me a Trump stooge, and telling me to shut up. None of that is actually criticising anything I'm saying, it's criticising my right to say it.
The senator did nothing untoward. There's no credible evidence she gained to attempted to gain advantage by claiming to be Native American.
It's not about gaining advantage by claiming she's Native American. I never claimed she did that and the evidence shows she did not. It's about calling herself Cherokee and Delaware when she has no official recognition from the tribe, and no official documentary evidence of it. If you have a full-blooded Cherokee grandmother and want to call yourself Cherokee, that's one thing. But for her to do, when she is relying on family legend, is wrong. I'm fine with her saying she has Native American ancestry and I'm fine with her saying that's important to her; all of that is verifiable. I'm not fine with her saying she IS (fill in the blank) when it's based on nothing but family legend.

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#178

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:31 pm

Something else to consider:

The two people who have been the most critical of Senator Warren have (I think) been maydijio and me. Maydijio has been a bit more critical than I have, but go back and read our posts again - neither of us was very critical of Warren at all.

People here are literally getting more pissed off at us for daring to say things that were mildly critical of some aspects of what Warren did than we were with Warren.
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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#179

Post by maydijo » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:33 pm

I really don't think I've been critical of Warren at all. I've been critical of some of her claims; but for me that's more of an academic argument than a specific criticism of Warren herself. I'm a Development geek. For Development geeks, things like community, identity, and indigenous rights are very important.

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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#180

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:34 pm

maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:29 pm
I'm not fine with her saying she IS (fill in the blank) when it's based on nothing but family legend.
And before anyone starts with the "she didn't say she was" thing again:

She checked the box to designate herself as a minority faculty member. That's an explicit claim to be a member of a minority group. There's no reasonable way to read that as just meaning "had some distant heritage."
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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#181

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:37 pm

maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:33 pm
I really don't think I've been critical of Warren at all. I've been critical of some of her claims; but for me that's more of an academic argument than a specific criticism of Warren herself. I'm a Development geek. For Development geeks, things like community, identity, and indigenous rights are very important.
I went with "mildly critical" because it seemed like a reasonable approximation that avoided distinguishing between being critical of someone versus being critical of something they did. Sorry if it missed the mark.
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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#182

Post by Dan1100 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:37 pm

Hidden so as to not argue in front of the R's.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#183

Post by John Thomas8 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:34 pm
maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:29 pm
I'm not fine with her saying she IS (fill in the blank) when it's based on nothing but family legend.
And before anyone starts with the "she didn't say she was" thing again:

She checked the box to designate herself as a minority faculty member. That's an explicit claim to be a member of a minority group. There's no reasonable way to read that as just meaning "had some distant heritage."
That assumes she checked it and not someone in the department filling a quota.

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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#184

Post by Reality Check » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm

maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:22 pm

But people aren't challenging my view, they're telling me that I'm doing the GOP's dirty work for them, calling me a Trump stooge, and telling me to shut up. None of that is actually criticising anything I'm saying, it's criticising my right to say it.
I don't think anyone (certainly not me) has called you a Trump stooge.

I will speak for myself. I think there are times at the Fogbow where some members seem to be willing to go out of their way to criticize Democrats. Look at this discussion. Warren got pissed off at being called an "Indian Princess" by the racist piece of scum Donald Trump. So she got a DNA test that proved she has at least some Native American DNA and she then called on Trump to pay up on the wager he made at a rally. Of course he welshed on the wager as we all knew he would. I suspect Warren did too. But what did we begin to see on this old discussion? We saw some members acting as if Warren had committed a terrible ethics violation. One member here seemed to have trouble distinguishing Warren's statements with those of Kavanaugh as to truthfulness.

Warren never claimed to be a member of any tribe or nation. She never gained any competitive advantage to gain a position. I will tell you what I think the Cherokee's can do with their statement but that's my own opinion.
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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#185

Post by maydijo » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:37 pm
maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:33 pm
I really don't think I've been critical of Warren at all. I've been critical of some of her claims; but for me that's more of an academic argument than a specific criticism of Warren herself. I'm a Development geek. For Development geeks, things like community, identity, and indigenous rights are very important.
I went with "mildly critical" because it seemed like a reasonable approximation that avoided distinguishing between being critical of someone versus being critical of something they did. Sorry if it missed the mark.
No, I'm not at all angry with you. Just pissed off that we are apparently supposed to kowtow and toe the line on every Democratic candidate, ever, no matter what.

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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#186

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:39 pm

John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm
Mikedunford wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:34 pm
maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:29 pm
I'm not fine with her saying she IS (fill in the blank) when it's based on nothing but family legend.
And before anyone starts with the "she didn't say she was" thing again:

She checked the box to designate herself as a minority faculty member. That's an explicit claim to be a member of a minority group. There's no reasonable way to read that as just meaning "had some distant heritage."
That assumes she checked it and not someone in the department filling a quota.
She checked it. She said so. I forgot to include the link; just went back upthread to find it.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/ ... ml?camp=pm
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#187

Post by John Thomas8 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:40 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:39 pm
John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm
Mikedunford wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:34 pm


And before anyone starts with the "she didn't say she was" thing again:

She checked the box to designate herself as a minority faculty member. That's an explicit claim to be a member of a minority group. There's no reasonable way to read that as just meaning "had some distant heritage."
That assumes she checked it and not someone in the department filling a quota.
She checked it. She said so. I forgot to include the link; just went back upthread to find it.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/ ... ml?camp=pm
Then take her out and have her shot. And let trump, pence and the like finish their agenda.

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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#188

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:42 pm

John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:40 pm
Mikedunford wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:39 pm
John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm


That assumes she checked it and not someone in the department filling a quota.
She checked it. She said so. I forgot to include the link; just went back upthread to find it.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/ ... ml?camp=pm
Then take her out and have her shot. And let trump, pence and the like finish their agenda.
Oh, for fuck sake.
"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#189

Post by maydijo » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Reality Check wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm

Warren never claimed to be a member of any tribe or nation. She never gained any competitive advantage to gain a position. I will tell you what I think the Cherokee's can do with their statement but that's my own opinion.
That's factually inaccurate. In the past she referred to herself as Cherokee in a cookbook; she has also referred to herself as Cherokee or Delaware at various times. She has never gained an advantage by doing so but again,that's irrelevant. For me the issue is: Who gets to determine membership in a community?

You have your opinion on what the Cherokees can do with their statement and that is an opinion I'd like to hear. I actually quite like it when people point out flaws in my thinking. I just get annoyed when people tell me I shouldn't speak because it might make the other side happy. Screw them. I'm not going to live my life that way.

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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#190

Post by Reality Check » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:46 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:39 pm
:snippity:

She checked it. She said so. I forgot to include the link; just went back upthread to find it.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/ ... ml?camp=pm
No, actually she didn't say that. You are paraphrasing her words just as the author of this old article did. This may be nitpicking but listing could be anything from actively checking a box to someone else preparing her entry and her not challenging it for the reasons she gave. We do know that when she had a chance to "check the box" on two applications she did not.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#191

Post by John Thomas8 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:48 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:42 pm
John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:40 pm
Mikedunford wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:39 pm


She checked it. She said so. I forgot to include the link; just went back upthread to find it.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/ ... ml?camp=pm
Then take her out and have her shot. And let trump, pence and the like finish their agenda.
Oh, for fuck sake.
We're whining about a single check box on some idiot college form while Mr Khashoggi was dismembered for being honest and trump is supporting it. There's got to be some sort of priority, right? Maybe? Or maybe not, shoot the liar on the college form and not worry about citizens getting dismembered.

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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#192

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:48 pm

Reality Check wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm
One member here seemed to have trouble distinguishing Warren's statements with those of Kavanaugh as to truthfulness.
You know what, RC -

I've got no idea what I did to piss you off, but it's become very clear both here and in the Avenatti thread that I have. Whatever it was, I'm sorry.

But I'm also done with your personal attacks, particularly ones that are as spectacularly dishonest as this.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#193

Post by maydijo » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:49 pm

Reality Check wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm

Warren got pissed off at being called an "Indian Princess" by the racist piece of scum Donald Trump. So she got a DNA test that proved she has at least some Native American DNA and she then called on Trump to pay up on the wager he made at a rally. Of course he welshed on the wager as we all knew he would. I suspect Warren did too. But what did we begin to see on this old discussion? We saw some members acting as if Warren had committed a terrible ethics violation. One member here seemed to have trouble distinguishing Warren's statements with those of Kavanaugh as to truthfulness.
I've never said or (in my opinion) acted like she committed some terrible ethics violation or that she has more of a problem with the truth than Kavanagh. Trump was wrong, full-stop, and he did what he always does when he's shown to be wrong, he threw a temper tantrum and tried to weasel his way out of it through lies and half-truths. Trump will do what he does, which is generally to act like a spoiled baby. So what? I refuse to give that man one more ounce of power over me than he already has. But Trump being an idiot doesn't automatically mean that we should pretend that everyone is against Trump is a saint. None of us are purely likeable. None of us have never made a mis-step or a mistake. So what? Are we supposed to paper over that just because Trump is atrocious?

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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#194

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:52 pm

John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:48 pm
Mikedunford wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:42 pm
John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:40 pm


Then take her out and have her shot. And let trump, pence and the like finish their agenda.
Oh, for fuck sake.
We're whining about a single check box on some idiot college form while Mr Khashoggi was dismembered for being honest and trump is supporting it. There's got to be some sort of priority, right? Maybe? Or maybe not, shoot the liar on the college form and not worry about citizens getting dismembered.
I said my bit in the longer post upthread, and it's 1 in the morning here, so I'm not going to repeat it in full.

Short version: I don't give a fuck about the check box, beyond being tired of having people - at a website that used to be about challenging falsehoods - telling me that she never claimed to be Native American.

I do give a fuck about the whole telling people - and particularly members of minority groups - to shut up about issues that are important to them so that the white people can save shit - both because it's not a good thing to do and because I don't think it's going to work real good as a message if we're looking for a sustainable Democratic party to beat back the fucking white supremacists.
"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#195

Post by John Thomas8 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:52 pm

maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:49 pm
Reality Check wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm

Warren got pissed off at being called an "Indian Princess" by the racist piece of scum Donald Trump. So she got a DNA test that proved she has at least some Native American DNA and she then called on Trump to pay up on the wager he made at a rally. Of course he welshed on the wager as we all knew he would. I suspect Warren did too. But what did we begin to see on this old discussion? We saw some members acting as if Warren had committed a terrible ethics violation. One member here seemed to have trouble distinguishing Warren's statements with those of Kavanaugh as to truthfulness.
I've never said or (in my opinion) acted like she committed some terrible ethics violation or that she has more of a problem with the truth than Kavanagh. Trump was wrong, full-stop, and he did what he always does when he's shown to be wrong, he threw a temper tantrum and tried to weasel his way out of it through lies and half-truths. Trump will do what he does, which is generally to act like a spoiled baby. So what? I refuse to give that man one more ounce of power over me than he already has. But Trump being an idiot doesn't automatically mean that we should pretend that everyone is against Trump is a saint. None of us are purely likeable. None of us have never made a mis-step or a mistake. So what? Are we supposed to paper over that just because Trump is atrocious?
Nobody is a saint. Me first, by the way. But ya know what, not all Germans were Nazis, either, but enough kept their mouths shut or pointed out "Jew this" or "Jew that" while the whole time their country was sucked into the abyss.

Maybe some of us would like to avoid that, since we're now equipped to actually end civilization.

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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#196

Post by Reality Check » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:53 pm

John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:48 pm
We're whining about a single check box on some idiot college form while Mr Khashoggi was dismembered for being honest and trump is supporting it. There's got to be some sort of priority, right? Maybe? Or maybe not, shoot the liar on the college form and not worry about citizens getting dismembered.
:yeah: Technically I don't think he was a citizen of the US but was a legal resident. Other than that I completely agree. And thanks for editing the title of the thread!
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#197

Post by John Thomas8 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:54 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:52 pm
John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:48 pm
Mikedunford wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:42 pm


Oh, for fuck sake.
We're whining about a single check box on some idiot college form while Mr Khashoggi was dismembered for being honest and trump is supporting it. There's got to be some sort of priority, right? Maybe? Or maybe not, shoot the liar on the college form and not worry about citizens getting dismembered.
I said my bit in the longer post upthread, and it's 1 in the morning here, so I'm not going to repeat it in full.

Short version: I don't give a fuck about the check box, beyond being tired of having people - at a website that used to be about challenging falsehoods - telling me that she never claimed to be Native American.

I do give a fuck about the whole telling people - and particularly members of minority groups - to shut up about issues that are important to them so that the white people can save shit - both because it's not a good thing to do and because I don't think it's going to work real good as a message if we're looking for a sustainable Democratic party to beat back the fucking white supremacists.
"White people" can't save shit. PEOPLE can save things if they figure out what the god damned target is and go after it.

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#198

Post by maydijo » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:54 pm

You do realise the irony in telling me that I shouldn't talk about this while telling me that the problem with Germans in the war was that too many of them stayed silent . . . .

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#199

Post by Reality Check » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:58 pm

maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:54 pm
You do realise the irony in telling me that I shouldn't talk about this while telling me that the problem with Germans in the war was that too many of them stayed silent . . . .
Yep, I am sure the Democrats are going to start crapping on the Constitution and putting children in cages any minute if we don't take every opportunity to criticize them.

PS: As I have said before my criticism of the Cherokee Nation is that they went out of their way to criticize Warren while giving Trump and the Republicans a pass on their blatant racism in the same statement.
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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#200

Post by John Thomas8 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:58 pm

maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:54 pm
You do realise the irony in telling me that I shouldn't talk about this while telling me that the problem with Germans in the war was that too many of them stayed silent . . . .
I told you to do nothing. My words were, if I recall, "You should be encouraged to post whatever you feel."

I'll stand by that.

I only point out that actions have consequences.

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