National Emergency on Border Wall

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Reality Check
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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#51

Post by Reality Check » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:39 pm

I agree with RTH. The courts may decide that Congress has the power to terminate the emergency and if they fail to override a veto tough luck.

This is a stupid law and needs to be changed. At a minimum there should be a time limit on emergency declarations after which a president would have to return to Congress for a re-authorization.

I am not surprised that Professor Turley would side with Trump though. His nose is perpetually up Trump's ass.
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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#52

Post by Dolly » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:04 pm

I was pleasantly surprised by this:
Dershowitz: Trump's emergency declaration was a ‘mistake’

Attorney Alan Dershowitz said in a new interview that President Trump's decision to declare a national emergency to build a wall along the southern border was a mistake.

“My own view is that it was a mistake to do it. I think emergencies are things that happened suddenly. The problems with immigration are long term,” he said in an interview that aired Sunday on John Catsimatidis’s radio show in New York.

“The Constitution requires that all spending bills originate in the House of Representatives. This is a way of circumventing that provision of the Constitution.”
...............
Dershowitz predicted the declaration would face a long court battle.

“There will be a lawsuit. No doubt about it. It will be tied up in the courts for a long time,” he said.

“Ultimately, the Supreme Court will have to decide. And it’s unclear how the court will decide because it’s a new Supreme Court,” Dershowitz added, referencing the new 5-4 conservative balance after Trump was able to install two justices on the high court. <snip>
https://thehill.com/homenews/news/43036 ... -a-mistake
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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#53

Post by ZekeB » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:07 pm

I wonder if there’s a chance that the law itself could be ruled as unconstitutional.
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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#54

Post by Dan1100 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:15 pm

ZekeB wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:07 pm
I wonder if there’s a chance that the law itself could be ruled as unconstitutional.
There is a line of cases about the Unlawful Delegation of Legislative Authority.

There is even a Wikipedia article on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondelegation_doctrine
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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#55

Post by RTH10260 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:02 pm

ZekeB wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:07 pm
I wonder if there’s a chance that the law itself could be ruled as unconstitutional.
Pure speculation by me: it's not a priori unconstitutional cause it makes sense to give the the executive an option to react fast in case of a (true) emergency before Congress can get together. Depending on the form of emergency Congress may even be delayed at getting together in Washington DC. My gut feeling is that un-real emergencies will be considered unconstitutional, eg something has to happen out of the blue to be considered a valid reason. All the reasoning about a few (hundreds of) migrants potentially intending to illegally cross a US border does not make it an emergency as long as CBP has it under control, possibly with backing of local law enforcment. This is not an event happening over night, the migrants are neither crashing the borders in masses over hundreds of miles at the same time.

As for the money grab, It's my uneducated opinion that the courts with restrict a trumpian access to divert funds. First he clearly told the nation that there is no real urgency, only dotus wants to build faster than Congress wishes. Second Congress has spoken some billions in funds for a limited number of miles of fencing. I predict that until that money has been spent courts will limit grabbing other funds. Then it is obvious that any structures built along the border line cannot be put in place over night, so no reason to allow a premature money grab and transfer into slush funds.

Of course I could be wrong on all that, I still hope the obituary for Common Sense was released prematurly.

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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#56

Post by DrIrvingFinegarten » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:27 am



Could standing be a problem with the lawsuits against Trump for declaring a national emergency?

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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#57

Post by bob » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:35 am

Standing is always an issue, but not a particularly pressing one in these cases.

The states will cite anticipated projects now not being funded, and the border states will also cite the costs/damages anticipated to be caused by the construction.

The ACLU is not the plaintiff; rather, it is representing the Sierra Club and various other organizations and individuals who live and work by the border.


Too also: When Texas (and others) first sued over the DACA expansion, the court found the states' rather tenuous claims about future costs to be sufficient to confer standing.
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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#58

Post by DrIrvingFinegarten » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:27 am

Reed also seems to think that there's something in the Constitution that states that the President has an obligation to protect the borders.

Where, exactly, does it state that?

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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#59

Post by bob » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:58 am

DrIrvingFinegarten wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:27 am
Reed also seems to think that there's something in the Constitution that states that the President has an obligation to protect the borders.
Only Reed can read Reed's mind.

My guess is that it sounds like a generous interpretation of the Take Care clause.
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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#60

Post by bob » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:55 pm

DrIrvingFinegarten wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:27 am
Reed also seems to think that there's something in the Constitution that states that the President has an obligation to protect the borders.
I'm still not a mind reader, but I'm going to amend my answer slightly. People like Jonathon Mosley(!) (who now has his own gig at WND) have been claiming that* that Art. 4, sec. 4, cl. 1 can be the basis for a national emergency, which states:
A.4, s.4, c.1 wrote:The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
Pretty weaksauce, constitution-interpretation speaking.


* Mosley's article is pretty embarrassing for a lawyer, but he does make one interesting point: As the National Emergencies Act gives Congress the ability to rescind the president's declaration, is this a political question? (The political-question doctrine, however, traditionally refers to powers delegated by the U.S. Constitution.)
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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#61

Post by Volkonski » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:14 pm

People Are Trolling Trump By Sharing How They’re Surviving The ‘National Emergency’

https://wokesloth.com/twitter-surviving ... n=bloomjoy

Many at the link. Some samples-

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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#62

Post by Volkonski » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:33 pm

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Texas National Guard's top general told Texas senators in a hearing today that they have two maintenance facilities at risk of losing funding because of the national emergency declaration.

2:08 PM - 20 Feb 2019
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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#63

Post by RTH10260 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:38 pm

bob wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:55 pm
DrIrvingFinegarten wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:27 am
Reed also seems to think that there's something in the Constitution that states that the President has an obligation to protect the borders.
I'm still not a mind reader, but I'm going to amend my answer slightly. People like Jonathon Mosley(!) (who now has his own gig at WND) have been claiming that* that Art. 4, sec. 4, cl. 1 can be the basis for a national emergency, which states:
A.4, s.4, c.1 wrote:The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
Pretty weaksauce, constitution-interpretation speaking.


* Mosley's article is pretty embarrassing for a lawyer, but he does make one interesting point: As the National Emergencies Act gives Congress the ability to rescind the president's declaration, is this a political question? (The political-question doctrine, however, traditionally refers to powers delegated by the U.S. Constitution.)
Hilighting your quote differently, seems to me Mosley quotes do not apply here: (1) the Legislature did not make an Application, and (2) the Legislation was in session at the time of dotus makeing an idiot of himself.

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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#64

Post by Volkonski » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:35 pm

NBC News

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JUST IN: House Democrats plan to introduce a privileged resolution terminating President Trump’s national emergency declaration at the border on Friday morning, three Democratic sources say. - @AlexNBCNews
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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#65

Post by noblepa » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:59 pm

Volkonski wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:35 pm
NBC News

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JUST IN: House Democrats plan to introduce a privileged resolution terminating President Trump’s national emergency declaration at the border on Friday morning, three Democratic sources say. - @AlexNBCNews
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This will easily pass in the House. As I understand it, it only needs four Republican Senators to vote for it to pass the Senate. The Emergencies act apparently prevents Mitch McConnell from blocking it from coming to the floor, so he can't stop a vote on it, as he has with so many other bills.

Since this is not a bill, but a "resolution" that is provided for in the Emergencies Act itself, can Trump veto it?

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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#66

Post by much ado » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:13 pm

From what I have read, a joint resolution requires the President to sign it, like a bill. It is subject to veto, like a bill.

IANAL. Here is Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_resolution

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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#67

Post by Dolly » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:48 pm

GOP Sen. Collins says she'll back resolution to block Trump's emergency declaration

GOP Sen. Susan Collins (Maine) on Wednesday said she would support a resolution to block President Trump's emergency declaration to construct the U.S.-Mexico border wall.

Collins, speaking to reporters in Maine, said she would support a resolution of disapproval that was focused on the emergency declaration, which she has described as being of "dubious constitutionality."

“If it’s a ‘clean’ disapproval resolution, I will support it,” she told reporters, according to The Associated Press.

Collins's comments make her the first Republican senator to say they will back legislation to block Trump's executive action. A spokeswoman for Collins didn't immediately respond to The Hill's request for comment.

But Collins has spoken out strongly against Trump's actions, arguing that the National Emergencies Act wasn't meant to be used to shuffle around money to build a border wall.

"I am strongly opposed to the president invoking his national emergency powers. I don't believe that's what the law was intended to cover," she told a Maine TV station on Tuesday. <SNIP>
https://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/ ... -emergency
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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#68

Post by Dolly » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:32 pm

Texas GOP rep opposes Trump’s use of national emergency to get border wall

Republican Rep. Roger Williams (Texas) said this week that he opposes the national emergency declared by President Trump to build a border wall.
....................
“The reason that I have not been supportive of the declaration is because Congress has done a really poor job, we ... Congress, both sides of the aisle, put the president in this situation, OK, but I don’t support it from a selfish standpoint,” Williams said at the event, according to the Statesman.

He then reportedly went on to explain that the emergency declared by Trump could take border wall funding that currently goes towards military bases, specifically noting Fort Hood, and saying he’d “hate to see a lot of those dollars diverted from that.”

Williams’s district, which he is in his fourth term representing, includes a majority of Fort Hood and is not on or near the border.
....................
The Hill has reached out to Williams’s office for a comment on the matter, but a spokesman for the congressman's office told the Statesman he has not decided whether he would support a congressional resolution to block the declaration.

“Should a joint resolution of termination to end the emergency status be introduced, Congressman Williams would have to read it and closely examine the facts surrounding it before forming an opinion,” Williams’s spokesperson Hanna Allred told the local news outlet.
<snip.... Collins says she will back it.....

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4308 ... order-wall
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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#69

Post by pipistrelle » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:38 pm

Congress, both sides of the aisle, put the president in this situation
:rolleye:

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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#70

Post by Gregg » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:43 pm

much ado wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:13 pm
From what I have read, a joint resolution requires the President to sign it, like a bill. It is subject to veto, like a bill.

IANAL. Here is Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_resolution
I have seen that as the law was written, it only took a simple majority in both houses to cancel and emergency, but that a subsequent SCOTUS case has established that a President can veto it and it would require 2/3s vote in each house to override the veto,
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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#71

Post by Gregg » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:49 pm

Dolly wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:48 pm
GOP Sen. Collins says she'll back resolution to block Trump's emergency declaration

GOP Sen. Susan Collins (Maine) on Wednesday said she would support a resolution to block President Trump's emergency declaration to construct the U.S.-Mexico border wall.

Collins, speaking to reporters in Maine, said she would support a resolution of disapproval that was focused on the emergency declaration, which she has described as being of "dubious constitutionality."

“If it’s a ‘clean’ disapproval resolution, I will support it,” she told reporters, according to The Associated Press.

Collins's comments make her the first Republican senator to say they will back legislation to block Trump's executive action. A spokeswoman for Collins didn't immediately respond to The Hill's request for comment.

But Collins has spoken out strongly against Trump's actions, arguing that the National Emergencies Act wasn't meant to be used to shuffle around money to build a border wall.

"I am strongly opposed to the president invoking his national emergency powers. I don't believe that's what the law was intended to cover," she told a Maine TV station on Tuesday. <SNIP>
https://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/ ... -emergency

Fuck you SUsan, you spineless bitch. Let's see if you'd support it if you were the 67th vote, and unless you are, you're just another Republican who is ''gravely concerned about the President'' but isn't willing to do bupkis to control him. Especially as you've been the critical vote to enable him how many times?
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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#72

Post by RVInit » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:09 am

Gregg wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:49 pm
Dolly wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:48 pm
GOP Sen. Collins says she'll back resolution to block Trump's emergency declaration

GOP Sen. Susan Collins (Maine) on Wednesday said she would support a resolution to block President Trump's emergency declaration to construct the U.S.-Mexico border wall.

Collins, speaking to reporters in Maine, said she would support a resolution of disapproval that was focused on the emergency declaration, which she has described as being of "dubious constitutionality."

“If it’s a ‘clean’ disapproval resolution, I will support it,” she told reporters, according to The Associated Press.

Collins's comments make her the first Republican senator to say they will back legislation to block Trump's executive action. A spokeswoman for Collins didn't immediately respond to The Hill's request for comment.

But Collins has spoken out strongly against Trump's actions, arguing that the National Emergencies Act wasn't meant to be used to shuffle around money to build a border wall.

"I am strongly opposed to the president invoking his national emergency powers. I don't believe that's what the law was intended to cover," she told a Maine TV station on Tuesday. <SNIP>
https://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/ ... -emergency

Fuck you SUsan, you spineless bitch. Let's see if you'd support it if you were the 67th vote, and unless you are, you're just another Republican who is ''gravely concerned about the President'' but isn't willing to do bupkis to control him. Especially as you've been the critical vote to enable him how many times?
True dat.
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Re: National Emergency on Border Wall

#73

Post by Reality Check » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:59 am

When the National Emergencies Act was passed back in the mid 70's the law allowed for an emergency to be terminated by a simple majority vote in both houses of Congress. However, the Supreme Court in 1983 in its infinite wisdom ruled that such votes were unconstitutional and any act of Congress had to go before the president for signature or veto. Therefore it will require a 2/3 majority in both the House and Senate to override Trump's likely veto.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/p ... gency.html
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