LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1276

Post by fierceredpanda » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:42 pm

Jo Swinson is the only leader of a political party in the UK talking any sense right now. Shame the LibDems haven't a chance of gaining a majority.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1277

Post by Hurtzi » Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:25 pm

Bettel's anger highlights a bleak truth: the EU27 just wants Britain to go
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... tain-to-go
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1278

Post by Reality Check » Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:29 pm

fierceredpanda wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:42 pm
Jo Swinson is the only leader of a political party in the UK talking any sense right now. Shame the LibDems haven't a chance of gaining a majority.
I know but they could play a key role in forming a new government if Parliament decides to bring down Johnson. I recent elections support for Lib Dems seems to growing while Labour and the Tories are losing ground.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1279

Post by fierceredpanda » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:21 pm

Unfortunately, the LibDems have already said they are not interested in forming a coalition with anyone. They tried that once with the Clegg-Cameron Government. It didn't work out well for the LibDems in the next election.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1280

Post by Suranis » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:31 pm

Ya, they got blamed for everything and their support shattered.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1281

Post by RTH10260 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:19 pm

Stay neutral, Boris Johnson tells Supreme Court
[
i]Prime minister warns judges as hearing into parliament’s suspension begins[/i]

Steven Swinford, Jonathan Ames, Chris Smyth
September 17 2019, 5:00pm, The Times

The 11 Supreme Court judges began yesterday to hear two appeals over the prorogation of parliament. The suspension was said by Lord Pannick, QC, to be the worst abuse of power by a prime minister in 50 years
The 11 Supreme Court judges began yesterday to hear two appeals over the prorogation of parliament. The suspension was said by Lord Pannick, QC, to be the worst abuse of power by a prime minister in 50 years
Boris Johnson has warned the country’s most senior judges that the courts have “no jurisdiction” over his decision to suspend parliament and they risk “entering the political arena”.

The Supreme Court began on Tuesday to hear two appeals relating to the five-week prorogation of parliament, which has been ruled by Scotland’s highest civil court to be an unlawful attempt to dodge MPs’ scrutiny of Brexit.

Accusing the Scottish judges of having a “fundamental misconception of how parliament operated”, the prime minister’s written submission said that it would be “constitutionally inappropriate” for the judiciary to intervene.

The UK’s highest court is attempting to resolve two contradictory appeals.


paywall https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -w0blpnqsw

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1282

Post by Dan1100 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:29 pm

Do judges in the UK react well to being "warned"?
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1283

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:15 am

This case could be the U.K.'s Marbury v. Madison, establishing judicial primacy. The question will be -- is the U.K. a government of men and women or of laws?

By the way, I really like the name of this guy: Lord Pannick, QC. If only his first name was "Dante."

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1284

Post by Hurtzi » Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:28 am

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:15 am
This case could be the U.K.'s Marbury v. Madison, establishing judicial primacy. The question will be -- is the U.K. a government of men and women or of laws?
As much as the US government.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1285

Post by Sam the Centipede » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:14 am

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:15 am
This case could be the U.K.'s Marbury v. Madison, establishing judicial primacy. The question will be -- is the U.K. a government of men and women or of laws?

By the way, I really like the name of this guy: Lord Pannick, QC. If only his first name was "Dante."
Not a lawyer nor nuffink, but based on titbits in relevant blogs during the last week…

The UK Supreme Court can declare legislation incompatible with higher legislation, such as the European Convention on Human Rights or other European/EU or international that the UK is committed to. But they can't actually strike it down, only request (not require or instruct, iirc) the government to reconsider it. I might have the flavor wrong but the gist is less of coequal arms of government more of "c'mon chaps, play the game, you can't do that, be a good fellow and think about it, hmm?"

From a US perspective, it's probably the case that UK law retain more vestiges of the original notions of a court: the king, touring the country, adjudicating complaints and claims brought before him, which later became the king's representatives (as the workload grew), later an independent (?) set up. Of course, the constitutional position is unknowable because the unwritten UK constitution isn't worth the paper it's not written on, and seems to be fairly summarized as "the government can do anything that it can get away with."

And, of course, the UK executive is part of the parliament, so it's important not to try to map the US system onto its ancestor, which is an example of Evolution rather than Intelligent Design.

My layman's understanding is that the English court didn't rule the prorogation legal (or not illegal, if there's a distinction) but declared it not judiciable, and that reflected a Victorian era obsession with keeping the courts out of politics. Effectively the English court refused to hear the case. The Scottish courts didn't have that English obsession so were happy to treat the case on its merits.

So it seems that part of the issue for the UK Supreme Court will be: is the UK constitution the same as the English one, a hybrid of English and Scottish (I have no idea of the status of Northern Ireland) or something completely different? Given that Scottish and English law are not hugely different (afaik), it seems to me to be reasonable to say that actions of the UK Prime Minister at the UK level (rather than as PM of England+Wales) should be compatible with both legal systems.

If the Supreme Court rules for Johnson's government, how will Scotland react? Scotland is already very angry at England's wish to drag it out of the EU. Will it seem like the English again ignoring the Scots, strengthening the case for independence?

I can't see the UK holding together if it exits the EU. I think most of the EU would welcome Scotland as a member, the main (but very important!) exceptions being France and Spain, which might wish to avoid encouraging separatist movements in parts of their own countries (Catalunya, Basque country, etc.).

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1286

Post by ArthurWankspittle » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:13 am

I don't see it as judicial primacy but Parliamentary (House of Commons) primacy. The argument is if Parliament is supreme then allowing an executive directive to suspend it for several weeks just before an important decision is not allowing it to function as it should.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1287

Post by RTH10260 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:39 am

What we know about Boris Johnson’s plan for Brexit talks
oliver wright, policy editor

What is the state of the negotiations?

Talks are taking place on three levels. The first is between British negotiators, led by Boris Johnson’s chief Europe adviser, David Frost, and Michel Barnier’s team in Brussels. These discussions are focused on working through the practical details of the prime minister’s plan to replace the Irish backstop with a “pick and mix” of measures designed to assuage concerns of the EU and Unionists in Northern Ireland.

The second strand of talks is directly between Mr Johnson and key European leaders about the principles behind what would be a grand trade-off to unlock a deal.

These included the prime minister’s visit to Luxembourg to meet Jean-Claude Juncker earlier in the week and yesterday’s phone call with the German leader.


paywall https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -r8kj7dzvl

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1288

Post by Orlylicious » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:50 am

All the proceedings in the UK Supreme Court are live streamed, wish our SCOTUS would do that. Hadn't realized it's only been since 2009 they've had a Supreme Court, that was a surprise. Here's day 2 part 2, easy to find the others. Thursday is the third and final day before a decision.




What a mess. Between Bibi looking like he's going down, Putin's plunge in popularity, and Donald being mired in the mid-30s, maybe, hopefully, people are starting to reject fear-based nationalist fervor.

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1289

Post by fierceredpanda » Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:45 am

I really would like to see the barristers before the court go full-on Al Pacino in ...And Justice For All, and start screaming, "You're out of order! You're out of order! The whole Brexit is out of order! They're out of order!"
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1290

Post by Suranis » Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:50 am

That was happening in the early 30s as well. Populist parties tend to start strong but then go into a decline after a while. The Nazi vote went down in the last election before they took over. The big problem is that eventuallyu people start askinf what do they have bar "Blame the bald redheads for everything" and their act plays out. People get sick of it, and when push comes to shove they actually cant do anything as they have no real solutions.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1291

Post by RTH10260 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:05 am

:confused:
Britain submits its backstop alternatives to EU

Oliver Wright, Policy Editor
September 19 2019, 12:00pm, The Times

Britain has formally tabled proposals for alternatives to the Irish backstop in an attempt to unlock a Brexit deal with the European Union.

The written submission is understood to have been sent yesterday after talks between Boris Johnson and Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission president.

It is understood to build on Mr Johnson’s earlier offer to create an all-Ireland food-and-agricultural zone with a regulatory border in the Irish Sea to protect the EU’s single market. However, the EU is being asked to accept a customs tariff border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland without any physical infrastructure on the actual border.


paywall https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -pw0ggqtg0

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1292

Post by RTH10260 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:06 am

We could prorogue parliament again, government tells Supreme Court

Steven Swinford, Deputy Political Editor | Chris Smyth, Whitehall Editor
September 19 2019, 12:00pm, The Times

Boris Johnson could refuse to recall MPs even if judges declare his decision to suspend parliament unlawful, the government told the Supreme Court.

Sir James Eadie QC said that it “doesn’t terribly matter whether the thing is declared void” and suggested that the prime minister could simply prorogue parliament again on a “lawful basis”.

Government lawyers wrote to the Supreme Court last night detailing Mr Johnson’s intentions if judges rule that prorogation is unlawful. However, they have so far resisted making the document public.

paywall https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -nbr5jc3z3

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1293

Post by RTH10260 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:08 am

Has Johnson been taking advice from Teh Donald :?: :doh:

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1294

Post by fierceredpanda » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:09 am

Always nice to have lawyers admit on the record that their client's position is that the court can, respectfully, go fuck itself.

Democracy might possibly be finished.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1295

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:18 am

I listened to some of the argument. I was not impressed. It was not of the high caliber I expected, mostly political in nature. And delivered poorly and in a stumbling fashion. Of course, I was disappointed that no one on the bench nor arguing was bewigged, but that changed several years ago.

When a Court is faced with a potentially disruptive decision, it usually acts to protect itself, so I anticipate the Court will find the matter not to be justiciable. That way it stays out of the fray. And as I have written elsewhere, appellate advocacy is mostly appellate theater, so the Supreme Court judges already know how they are going to vote. Maybe one or two will stray, but there will be a top heavy decision not to venture into the thicket.

Bottom line: the remainers shouldn't have any hope the Supreme Court is going to rescue them. I fervently hope I am wrong.

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1296

Post by Slim Cognito » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:26 am

I really hate it when you lawyer peoples blow up my personal utopian fantasies.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1297

Post by Reality Check » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:36 am

It really doesn't matter. BoJo's attorney told the court he would just ignore any decision they made anyway.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1298

Post by fierceredpanda » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:16 pm

Slim Cognito wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:26 am
I really hate it when you lawyer peoples blow up my personal utopian fantasies.
It's what we're here for. ;)
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1299

Post by Sam the Centipede » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:58 pm

Orlylicious wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:50 am
Hadn't realized it's only been since 2009 they've had a Supreme Court, that was a surprise.
That's correct, but a little misleading. I was in London around then and I think I remember the story. Their supreme court before was the House of Lords. Sounds like the legislature also acting as judiciary? Not really, because it was the so-called "Law Lords" (all appointed senior judges) who heard relevant cases, not the "lay" members. I don't know if the Law Lords even took part in ordinary House of Lords business, maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I have a vague recollection (possibly from an old black-and-white movie!) that perhaps ordinary members of the House of Lords retained some ancient right to hearings by a court of all their fellow lords (a jury of their peers?), but I might be wrong. Anyway, that last bit's not relevant.

The move in 2009 was intended to clarify the separation which existed in fact and convention, but was not clear and obvious. I don't know if considerations of the European Convention on Human Rights or some other international treaties played a role too. It also allowed the new court to find proper premises and to update its procedures and technology.

I too was unimpressed by the argument compared with how SCOTUS works. The instructions from SCOTUS's top clerk tell advocates to assume that judges are properly acquainted with the briefs and issues, so be concise when speaking and be prepared to answer varied tricky questions coming at them thick and fast. So the oral hearing supplements the briefs. With the UK's implementation, there were lots of people droning on at great length, especially the Scottish guy on Wednesday afternoon, who revelled in rambling around his points rather than driving them home. Definitely not concise! I think 15 or 30 minutes prepared material (per speaker) followed by (or interspersed with) pointed interrogation on the issues would have been both more productive and more entertaining.

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1300

Post by Sam the Centipede » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:12 pm

The Guardian's parliamentary sketch writer (John Crace) has a nice piece which pours scorn on the government's lawyers and their speeches: Supreme court hears masterly prorogation defence: don't sweat it

He is highly amused by an intervention (scheduled, not somebody interrupting):
Next up had been Edward Garnier speaking for John Major. We’re beyond the world of satire when a former Tory prime minister can accuse the present one of being less trustworthy than a dodgy estate agent. An allegation that seemed rather harsh on dodgy estate agents. The constitution might be based on the assumption of a conscientious prime minister, Garnier said, but the judges should be aware they were dealing with a reckless one.
Worth a read. Links should take you to his pieces for previous days. Enjoy!

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