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Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#176

Post by Maybenaut »

fierceredpanda wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:35 pm I've been stupid busy the last couple days, but as the resident Wisconsin criminal lawyer here, I want to point out that actually (and it gives me absolutely no pleasure to say this) Lin Wood is in the right with the letters to the court regarding the bond money. Assuming bond is not forfeited (including some amount used to pay court costs and/or restitution in the event Rittenhouse is convicted), Wisconsin law requires that bond money be returned to the person or persons who posted it. So yeah, Lin Wood's organization should get their money back. And if you think about it, it would be perverse in the extreme if it were to be otherwise and Rittenhouse stood to be enriched to the tune of $2 million whenever the case concluded.

In fact, although I never did this while I was in private practice, it is quite common for defense lawyers to file letters with the court - countersigned by the client of course - requesting that a specific amount of the client's bond be returned to the lawyer and not to whomever posted it, as a way for the lawyer to obtain some security for a retainer that has not been paid in full. Again, not something I ever did, but not at all an uncommon occurrence.
Could the Court require Lin Wood to return it to the people who donated it?
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#177

Post by fierceredpanda »

Maybenaut wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:28 am
fierceredpanda wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:35 pm I've been stupid busy the last couple days, but as the resident Wisconsin criminal lawyer here, I want to point out that actually (and it gives me absolutely no pleasure to say this) Lin Wood is in the right with the letters to the court regarding the bond money. Assuming bond is not forfeited (including some amount used to pay court costs and/or restitution in the event Rittenhouse is convicted), Wisconsin law requires that bond money be returned to the person or persons who posted it. So yeah, Lin Wood's organization should get their money back. And if you think about it, it would be perverse in the extreme if it were to be otherwise and Rittenhouse stood to be enriched to the tune of $2 million whenever the case concluded.

In fact, although I never did this while I was in private practice, it is quite common for defense lawyers to file letters with the court - countersigned by the client of course - requesting that a specific amount of the client's bond be returned to the lawyer and not to whomever posted it, as a way for the lawyer to obtain some security for a retainer that has not been paid in full. Again, not something I ever did, but not at all an uncommon occurrence.
Could the Court require Lin Wood to return it to the people who donated it?
Wisconsin law does not provide any mechanism for doing so, and even if it did, I don't see how such a requirement could possibly be enforced. When bail is given, the clerk of courts for the county where the case is proceeding will take basic information from whoever posted the bond (name, address, phone number, etc.). They don't have the information of the donors to the foundation, so there's not really any way the court could order return of monies to person or persons unknown. And it would be a complete shitshow if Rittenhouse is ultimately convicted and they had to give it back to the donors, because you still get your bond back if the defendant is convicted, but costs and restitution are deducted from it first before it is returned. So how is Wood supposed to decide which donors get their money back and which ones paid to cover the court costs and/or restitution? It's the same with my clients whose family raises a five-figure bond collectively. One person ultimately sends the check to the clerk of courts, but the court has no way of knowing who raised what and ordering that they be repaid if the bond is discharged at the end of the case. The family has to work that out among themselves. Maybe such a scenario would be grounds for a civil lawsuit, but that would probably be a jurisdictional clusterfuck in this case (what jurisdiction is proper to sue the Fightback Foundation?), and most donors probably gave such a small amount that the costs of litigation would make the whole exercise pointless.

Also let's not forget that bail funds exist for less ignoble causes. A podcast I listen to spent most of last year telling listeners who wanted to support them with monthly Patreon donations to donate to a bail fund instead. Literally no one who donates to such funds expects (or should expect) to get that money back. The whole point is that you're going to be out that money permanently, and in the event that the bail fund gets it back, they should use it to bail another person out, and on and on in perpetuity. In this case, does that mean that Lin Wood's foundation potentially stands to gain $2 million? Yeah. Do I think donors thought about that very much before clicking the "donate" button? I do not.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#178

Post by neonzx »

So Ricky Schroder gets his $50k back, too?
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#179

Post by Maybenaut »

fierceredpanda wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:03 am In this case, does that mean that Lin Wood's foundation potentially stands to gain $2 million? Yeah. Do I think donors thought about that very much before clicking the "donate" button? I do not.
There’s the grift. It’s brilliant. Two million dollars and he didn’t have to do anything other than generate outrage.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#180

Post by fierceredpanda »

Maybenaut wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:28 am
fierceredpanda wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:03 am In this case, does that mean that Lin Wood's foundation potentially stands to gain $2 million? Yeah. Do I think donors thought about that very much before clicking the "donate" button? I do not.
There’s the grift. It’s brilliant. Two million dollars and he didn’t have to do anything other than generate outrage.
And that's different from a metric boatload of other 501(c)(3) and 501(c)(4) groups...how?

Don't get me wrong: It would be extremely interesting if someone wanted to peek at the Fightback Foundation's Form 990s when all is said and done. I just can't get too worked up about it, because it isn't exactly shocking to me that there are nonprofits raking in cash hand over fist by doing nothing other than generating outrage amongst a particular audience such that said audience starts clicking the "donate" button until their wallets explode.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#181

Post by Maybenaut »

It’s not different.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#182

Post by andersweinstein »

fierceredpanda wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:35 pm I've been stupid busy the last couple days, but as the resident Wisconsin criminal lawyer here, I want to point out that actually (and it gives me absolutely no pleasure to say this) Lin Wood is in the right with the letters to the court regarding the bond money. Assuming bond is not forfeited (including some amount used to pay court costs and/or restitution in the event Rittenhouse is convicted), Wisconsin law requires that bond money be returned to the person or persons who posted it. So yeah, Lin Wood's organization should get their money back. And if you think about it, it would be perverse in the extreme if it were to be otherwise and Rittenhouse stood to be enriched to the tune of $2 million whenever the case concluded.

In fact, although I never did this while I was in private practice, it is quite common for defense lawyers to file letters with the court - countersigned by the client of course - requesting that a specific amount of the client's bond be returned to the lawyer and not to whomever posted it, as a way for the lawyer to obtain some security for a retainer that has not been paid in full. Again, not something I ever did, but not at all an uncommon occurrence.
Reportedly Lin Wood wired the money from the #FightBack entity to Pierce's firm Peirce Bainbridge to facilitate payment. Then *Pierce* paid the bond with a cashier's check from his firm Pierce Bainbridge. It does not sound like Pierce identified himself in any way as an agent of FightBack. Reportedly he listed his home address on the bail paperwork.

So I see that FightBack has a legitimate claim to the money. But can a letter such as Wood sent override the legal requirement to return the funds to whoever paid them, namely Pierce Bainbridge? If Pierce fails to return it to FightBack, then FightBack got screwed over by trusting their agent Pierce. So wouldn't they have to sue Pierce to get the funds? It seems odd to me to expect the office returning bail funds to in effect adjudicate a high dollar dispute between Pierce and FightBack if Pierce fails to acquiesce.

Details from this piece:

https://www.kenoshanews.com/news/local/ ... 743bc.html
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#183

Post by andersweinstein »

andersweinstein wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:58 pm So I see that Fight Back has a legitimate claim to the money. But can a letter such as Wood sent override the legal requirement to return the funds to whoever paid them, namely Pierce Bainbridge?
"Clerk of Courts Rebecca Matoska-Mentink said her office would return the bond to the poster — in this case Pierce — unless there is a court order to the contrary."

https://www.kenoshanews.com/news/local/ ... e01ec.html

I gather Wood's lawyer's letter was a pre-emptive strike to try to head off Fight Back getting screwed over by Pierce. Maybe "warning shot" is a better metaphor, since I doubt they expected it to succeed.

Pierce himself charmingly claimed the Rittenhouses still owe him money.

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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#184

Post by raison de arizona »

andersweinstein wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:14 pm I gather Wood's lawyer's letter was a pre-emptive strike to try to head off Fight Back getting screwed over by Pierce. Pierce himself charmingly claimed the Rittenhouses still owe him money.

IIRC, Lin claims that most of the $470k in legal fees went to Pierce. FWIW. I could be wrong about that though, although I'm certain that Lin claims the legal fees didn't go to him.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#185

Post by Gregg »

I honestly don't see how the family or the vigilante have any claim at all to this money. It was never their money, it was donated to various expenses and if I had to decide this, I'd have to have explained to me why I shouldn't give it to Pierce.

And despair that I can't do something useful with it instead.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#186

Post by andersweinstein »

Gregg wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:33 pm I honestly don't see how the family or the vigilante have any claim at all to this money. It was never their money, it was donated to various expenses and if I had to decide this, I'd have to have explained to me why I shouldn't give it to Pierce.

And despair that I can't do something useful with it instead.
I haven't heard of the family or vigilante claiming personal rights to the money. The currently constituted defense fund has been implying that the bail money ought to get to them, to continue fund expenses for Rittenhouse's defense. I guess this is sort of a moral claim -- that's what the donors thought they were contributing for. I don't know that it has any legal force.

I would think in a legitimately constituted defense fund, returned bail money would indeed continue to be used for defense, perhaps to pay off lawyers, fund appeals etc. But this money was donated to Linn Wood's #FightBack foundation. I would guess the fine print at donation time allows Fight Back to shift it to other causes they support.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#187

Post by raison de arizona »

andersweinstein wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:52 am
Gregg wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:33 pm I honestly don't see how the family or the vigilante have any claim at all to this money. It was never their money, it was donated to various expenses and if I had to decide this, I'd have to have explained to me why I shouldn't give it to Pierce.

And despair that I can't do something useful with it instead.
I haven't heard of the family or vigilante claiming personal rights to the money. The currently constituted defense fund has been implying that the bail money ought to get to them, to continue fund expenses for Rittenhouse's defense. I guess this is sort of a moral claim -- that's what the donors thought they were contributing for. I don't know that it has any legal force.

I would think in a legitimately constituted defense fund, returned bail money would indeed continue to be used for defense, perhaps to pay off lawyers, fund appeals etc. But this money was donated to Linn Wood's #FightBack foundation. I would guess the fine print at donation time allows Fight Back to shift it to other causes they support.
Anders, just to be clear, "the currently constituted defense fund" is... Kyle's mom.
Contributions to FreeKyleUSA and Milo Fund LLC are not tax deductible as charitable contributions for federal income tax purposes.
The Milo Fund LLC was organized by Wendy Rittenhouse to receive and disburse donations to pay for Kyle's defense.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#188

Post by andersweinstein »

raison de arizona wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:26 pm
Anders, just to be clear, "the currently constituted defense fund" is... Kyle's mom.
Contributions to FreeKyleUSA and Milo Fund LLC are not tax deductible as charitable contributions for federal income tax purposes.
The Milo Fund LLC was organized by Wendy Rittenhouse to receive and disburse donations to pay for Kyle's defense.
https://freekyleusa.com/
Ah. I knew Wendy Rittenhouse was involved in managing the fund, but did not know all of that.

So is there any constraint on how Milo Fund LLC can use the donated funds?
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#189

Post by Luke »

Well, this is a pretty big deal. For some reason, the US Audit Telegram channel had a four-hour voice chat with Kyle and others. Didn't have time to listen to it yet but sounds like they talk about Kyle and the fraudits. Who was the genius that suggested Kyle do a public event?
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#190

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

I hope, but not expecting my hope to be fulfilled, that Kyle is getting paid for risking his defense. He doesn't realize he was invited to garner viewers. :cantlook:
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#191

Post by raison de arizona »

Trying to skim through this four hours to hear Kyle, it's vaguely interesting so far. Reportedly, John Pierce (who had never tried a defense case before) was charging $1,275/hr and racked up $114,000 in the first four days. Wendy Rittenhouse is described as "not sophisticated" and bamboozled by "Harvard lawyers."
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#192

Post by Gregg »

raison de arizona wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:22 am Trying to skim through this four hours to hear Kyle, it's vaguely interesting so far. Reportedly, John Pierce (who had never tried a defense case before) was charging $1,275/hr and racked up $114,000 in the first four days. Wendy Rittenhouse is described as "not sophisticated" and bamboozled by "Harvard lawyers."

It must be embarrassing to get bamboozled buy Ted Cruz.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#193

Post by andersweinstein »

orlylicious wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:59 am Well, this is a pretty big deal. For some reason, the US Audit Telegram channel had a four-hour voice chat with Kyle and others. Didn't have time to listen to it yet but sounds like they talk about Kyle and the fraudits. Who was the genius that suggested Kyle do a public event?
Rittenhouse himself only drops in to say "hi" and "thank you" near the beginning, I think.

First hour and 10 minutes or so has Hancock on the Pierce and Wood fundraising shenanigans for KR. Found this interesting. It does lay out the family's case for the bail money. A few details as I remember them:

- Says Wendy Rittenhouse raised about$1M on her own before FightBack started bail fundraising and trusted it to Wood expecting him to be a "good steward of the money". Never got accounting from FightBack about use of these or any other funds.
- Claims FightBack raised money from her data and donor lists without permission.
- At some point a glitch on FightBack web site made it unable to distinguish between donations for Rittenhouse and donations for election fraud. They dealt with it by just applying a 70-30 split to all donations (70% for KR) even retroactively to before the glitch.
- Instructions on bail funds were to wire it to Wendy Rittenhouse's trust account at Peirce Bainbridge for the benefit of Kyle Rittenhouse.
- Peirce offered to return it to Wendy on condition she waive any liability for him and any right to audit the trust account.
- It was never expected to go back to FightBack before Wood's recent claim. Were it not for these disputes it could have been used as collateral for legal fees.

There's also some stuff about Lin Wood's crazy interactions with Hancock that led Hancock to break with him, if you're interested.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#194

Post by andersweinstein »

orlylicious wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:59 am Well, this is a pretty big deal. For some reason, the US Audit Telegram channel had a four-hour voice chat with Kyle and others. Didn't have time to listen to it yet but sounds like they talk about Kyle and the fraudits. Who was the genius that suggested Kyle do a public event?
Also noticed just before the end, about 3:58:00, Hancock mentions the FBI surveillance video Binger surprised the defense with by mentioning at the evidence motion hearing. Hancock claims that Binger distorted what it shows and that it is actually exculpatory. In his telling it confirms the defense case that Rosenbaum ran ahead to take up a position behind a car to ambush Rittenhouse (along with Ziminksi) after Rittenhouse passed his hiding place.

I doubt very much an aerial video without sound will show unambiguously what happened. But I would expect it to be entirely consistent with the defense case. It also fits with the eyewitness testimony in the criminal complaint of reporter Richie McGinnis, who followed Rittenhouse as he walked down Sheridan Rd -- his account in the criminal complaint also represents Rosenbaum as the initiator of the confrontation.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#195

Post by Frater I*I »

Gregg wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:45 pm
It must be embarrassing to get bamboozled buy Ted Cruz.
Just ask a majority of the population of Texas....


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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#196

Post by Luke »

Hey thanks Anders, didn't listen to it but saw the comments about Kyle "sounding so good" and they used his name hugely in the promo. Sounds like there's a lot of info it it about Kyle and the audits, these people love the sound of their voices :lol:
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#197

Post by andersweinstein »

orlylicious wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:56 pm Hey thanks Anders, didn't listen to it but saw the comments about Kyle "sounding so good" and they used his name hugely in the promo. Sounds like there's a lot of info it it about Kyle and the audits, these people love the sound of their voices :lol:
I was amused that Hancock knocks the grifters for using Kyle as "arm candy" to show off when raising money for other causes. He's not much more in promoting this interview.

BTW I listened at 2x speed to get through the damn thing and skipped through the middle once it turned to election audit stuff.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#198

Post by Gregg »

andersweinstein wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:25 pm
orlylicious wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:56 pm Hey thanks Anders, didn't listen to it but saw the comments about Kyle "sounding so good" and they used his name hugely in the promo. Sounds like there's a lot of info it it about Kyle and the audits, these people love the sound of their voices :lol:
I was amused that Hancock knocks the grifters for using Kyle as "arm candy" to show off when raising money for other causes. He's not much more in promoting this interview.

BTW I listened at 2x speed to get through the damn thing and skipped through the middle once it turned to election audit stuff.

Did it sound more like it belonged in the universe where people talk like the chipmunks?
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#199

Post by raison de arizona »

Kyle Rittenhouse petitions judge for a self-defense expert to testify on his behalf

Kyle Rittenhouse will be back in a Kenosha County courtroom Tuesday morning seeking permission to call an expert witness on self-defense when his murder trial begins next month.
:snippity:
Rittenhouse’s defense attorneys say their expert, John R. Black, will give jurors a frame-by-frame breakdown of the shootings and offer an explanation for Rittenhouse’s actions amid the chaotic scene.

Circuit Judge Bruce Schroeder, however, has signaled he could limit Black’s testimony or even ban it altogether. At a pretrial hearing last month, Schroeder said Black would not be allowed to explain the law to jurors because that is solely the judge’s responsibility.

Acknowledging Black may be able to provide expertise on Rittenhouse’s gun handling or reaction times, Schroeder set a pretrial hearing for Tuesday to discuss the testimony. Black, who has testified in several police use-of-force cases, is slated to appear by video conference, according to court records.

“When it comes to use of force, I am the expert,” Schroeder said. “I’m the only one who is going to be defining what is reasonable under the law, what constitutes self-defense. I’m not going to have competition in the courtroom.”
:snippity:
Self-defense cases are always arduous undertakings, largely because the defense assumes the burden of proving the accused’s actions were justified. That task could be even more difficult for Rittenhouse’s attorneys after prosecutors disclosed last month that the FBI has images showing Rittenhouse was the one who initially followed Rosenbaum.

As the two reached the car lot where the shooting occurred, Rittenhouse said something to Rosenbaum, who then turned around and started to chase Rittenhouse, prosecutors said. The recording was captured by an infrared camera attached to an FBI fixed wing aircraft that was monitoring the city during the unrest.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct- ... story.html
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#200

Post by noblepa »

Contributions to FreeKyleUSA and Milo Fund LLC are not tax deductible as charitable contributions for federal income tax purposes.
The Milo Fund LLC was organized by Wendy Rittenhouse to receive and disburse donations to pay for Kyle's defense.
Does that mean that those funds are taxable income to Ms. RIttenhouse?
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