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Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

These people are weird, but we like to find out what weird people are doing and thinking. It's a hobby.
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p0rtia
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#51

Post by p0rtia »

sugar magnolia wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:18 pm
Patagoniagirl wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:09 pm
andersweinstein wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:37 pm

Touché. Though I am a little surprised that a regrettable lapse into a bit of snark seems to have attracted more attention than anything else.
I'm beginning to suspect you enjoy the attention .
Beginning?
She just understated for rhetorical effect.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#52

Post by northland10 »

Patagoniagirl wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:09 am Couldn't find the sarcasm emoji.
For future reference (and I spend way too much time going through the whole set to find an emoji I use all the time time, so I understand).
:sarcasm:
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#53

Post by andersweinstein »

fierceredpanda wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:28 pm ... I'm pretty sure the person who deliberately went out to a demonstration for a cause that was not theirs in a town that was not even in the same state as them and felt it necessary to arm themselves for journey is pretty obviously not a victim of anything.
To comment on one bit of this: People love to throw in the fact that he crossed a state line as if this adds something of significance. This fact is legally relevant since it brings potential federal involvement. But it's not some very telling bit of evidence.

Per the New Yorker, KR lived a mile from the WI border. People who live near state borders may cross back and forth all the time. The state line is just a sign you pass on the side of the road. This "journey" was maybe a 20 minute drive, one he and his family probably made routinely, from his rural town to a nearby city, the place where he worked a job, had at least one buddy and likely hung out regularly. The punching incident prosecutors want to admit took place while hanging out in Kenosha. Per Washington Post, he watched the first night's destruction with horror on TV while staying over in Kenosha with resident Dominic Black who was dating his sister. The gun was picked up from its storage location in Kenosha.

Emphasizing the border crossing aims to imply he was an outside agitator with no connection to that city. But Rittenhouse could well have had a stronger connection to Kenosha as a community he felt part of and had an interest in than, say, a Milwaukee resident who traveled to the protest.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#54

Post by Dave from down under »

Oh well that makes it all right...

He just went a hunting.... people.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#55

Post by sugar magnolia »

Breaking a law always adds something of significance.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#56

Post by bill_g »

And crossing the state line adds a candle to his cake.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#57

Post by Azastan »

andersweinstein wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:26 am

The gun was picked up from its storage location in Kenosha.

Tell us again WHY the gun was being 'stored' in Kenosha?

Hunters--real hunters--will tell you that you'd BETTER know the boundaries of game units unless you want to be charged with poaching and you also don't want to be crossing state lines and get caught doing so.

https://www.thehuntingnews.com/11-tv-hunters-poaching/
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#58

Post by neonzx »

And cosplay on city streets with a rifle because stupid WI law excused as being a "hunting state".

Ohio is a ""hunting state", but you can't walk around downtown Columbus or Cleveland, etc, with a rifle over your shoulder. People don't "hunt" in the cities.

But anything goes in Wisconsin. :roll: -- again, I'll buy my cheeses produced elsewhere.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#59

Post by bob »

andersweinstein wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:26 amBut Rittenhouse could well have had a stronger connection to Kenosha as a community he felt part of and had an interest in
Good to know that speculation is now evidence.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#60

Post by raison de arizona »

Criminal case against man who allegedly purchased gun Kyle Rittenhouse used in fatal shootings delayed until after Rittenhouse trial
DENEEN SMITH Jul 29, 2021 Updated Jul 29, 2021

The criminal case against the 19-year-old who allegedly made the straw purchase that provided Kyle Rittenhouse his gun has been put on hold until after the Rittenhouse trial.

Dominick Black, who now lives in Racine according to court records, is charged with two counts of intentionally giving a dangerous weapon to a person under 18 causing death.

According to court documents, Rittenhouse allegedly gave cash to Black — who was dating Rittenhouse’s sister — to purchase an AR-15 style rifle for Rittenhouse from a Wisconsin hardware store because Rittenhouse was underage.

Court documents allege Rittenhouse retrieved the gun from Black’s stepfather’s house in Kenosha on Aug. 25, 2020, and that Rittenhouse and Black went together, armed, to protests in downtown Kenosha that followed the Jacob Blake shooting. Later that night, Rittenhouse shot three men, killing two, in what he and his supporters say was an act of self defense. Rittenhouse is charged with homicide.

At a brief hearing Thursday, the prosecution and Black’s defense attorney made a mutual request to adjourn the Black case until after the Rittenhouse trial. The court granted that request and set the case for a status hearing on Nov. 22.

If convicted Black faces up to three years in prison for each of the counts against him.

Rittenhouse is scheduled to go to trial Nov. 1.
https://www.kenoshanews.com/news/local/ ... 6871b.html
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#61

Post by andersweinstein »

bob wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:29 am
andersweinstein wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:26 amBut Rittenhouse could well have had a stronger connection to Kenosha as a community he felt part of and had an interest in
Good to know that speculation is now evidence.
Speculation was not being offered as evidence. The point was that the "crossed a state line" factoid doesn't support the intended implication.

If it is not in fact true the Rittenhouse had a connection to Kenosha, it's not because of the state line. That's totally irrelevant given the proximity.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#62

Post by raison de arizona »

andersweinstein wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:24 pm
bob wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:29 am
andersweinstein wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:26 amBut Rittenhouse could well have had a stronger connection to Kenosha as a community he felt part of and had an interest in
Good to know that speculation is now evidence.
Speculation was not being offered as evidence. The point was that the "crossed a state line" factoid doesn't support the intended implication.

If it is not in fact true the Rittenhouse had a connection to Kenosha, it's not because of the state line. That's totally irrelevant given the proximity.
That's an interesting opinion, we'll see if judge and/or jury think crossing state lines to commit felonies is "totally irrelevant" or not at trial I suppose.
“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#63

Post by andersweinstein »

sugar magnolia wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:02 am Breaking a law always adds something of significance.
I am not sure what law you believe he broke. He isn't charged with any crimes for crossing the state line. He didn't transport the gun across the state line.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#64

Post by andersweinstein »

raison de arizona wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:27 pm
andersweinstein wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:24 pm
bob wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:29 am
Good to know that speculation is now evidence.
Speculation was not being offered as evidence. The point was that the "crossed a state line" factoid doesn't support the intended implication.

If it is not in fact true the Rittenhouse had a connection to Kenosha, it's not because of the state line. That's totally irrelevant given the proximity.
That's an interesting opinion, we'll see if judge and/or jury think crossing state lines to commit felonies is "totally irrelevant" or not at trial I suppose.
He's not charged with any federal crimes. He's charged under state law in WI.

The fact could be used as evidence by the jury, that is always true.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#65

Post by raison de arizona »

andersweinstein wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:32 pm
raison de arizona wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:27 pm That's an interesting opinion, we'll see if judge and/or jury think crossing state lines to commit felonies is "totally irrelevant" or not at trial I suppose.
He's not charged with any federal crimes. He's charged under state law in WI.

The fact could be used as evidence by the jury, that is always true.
Anders, I'm not arguing that he is charged with a federal crime. If I were to walk outside and get in a fist fight outside my home, that's one thing. If I were spoiling for a fight and crossed a state line (or even just drove across town, let's not get caught up in this state line thing) to find one, that is something likely to be looked at differently by a judge and jury than if something spontaneous just happened. There was nothing spontaneous here. IANAL, but from following this kind of thing for many years, I would imagine that sort of thing will be taken under consideration at some point, yes.
“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#66

Post by bob »

andersweinstein wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:24 pm
bob wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:29 am
andersweinstein wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:26 amBut Rittenhouse could well have had a stronger connection to Kenosha as a community he felt part of and had an interest in
Good to know that speculation is now evidence.
Speculation was not being offered as evidence.
But it was: You are fabricating evidence of a benign motive. Because a benign motive fits your preferred narrative, and disproves your disfavored narrative.

The only thing less credible than spinning fantasies is to gaslight that you aren't.
If it is not in fact true the Rittenhouse had a connection to Kenosha, it's not because of the state line.
Again, the speculation is doing all the work: There's no evidence it is true. "Funny" how your speculation only works one way.
raison de arizona wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:43 pmIf I were spoiling for a fight and crossed a state line (or even just drove across town, let's not get caught up in this state line thing) to find one, that is something likely to be looked at differently by a judge and jury than if something spontaneous just happened. There was nothing spontaneous here.
Exactly: It is circumstantial evidence of intent.

And "across state lines" is rhetoric, to emphasize that he did indeed put effort to put himself into this situation. But it seems only some people are permitted to employ rhetoric as a persuasion tool.

The prosecutor will argue to the jury all this supports the evidence that his actions were intentional and premeditated. Especially when others who felt compelled to render aid (the proffered motive) didn't arrive armed.

The defense could argue a different inference from this evidence. But without additional evidence, an unadorned claim of "his love for Kenosha" will ring out as a hollow lie, and any half-decent prosecutor will argue that he was lying then, and continues to lie now.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#67

Post by sugar magnolia »

Antioch may be a mile from the border, but Kenosha is 45 minutes away. The only specific connection with Kenosha that has been established is his sister's boyfriend, who lives there. To make the leap that he has personal connections beyond that is pure speculation.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#68

Post by Uninformed »

Just for laughs…

Was the “boyfriend” at the “demonstration”? If so, was he armed? Does he have any connections to a “milisha” group? Was the gun purchased for the occasion of the “demonstration”?

Speculation is fun. :mrgreen:
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#69

Post by bill_g »

The boyfriend was at the demonstration. He was armed. He also purchased the weapon that Kyle immediately carried that evening at the same demonstration. So, one could infer the weapon was intended for that demonstration.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#70

Post by bob »

Uninformed wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:27 pm Was the “boyfriend” at the “demonstration”?
Dominick Black, the sister's boyfriend, was there as well.
If so, was he armed?
He described "stationing" himself on a business' roof, to "guard" it; he admitted he also was armed.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#71

Post by andersweinstein »

raison de arizona wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:43 pm
andersweinstein wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:32 pm
raison de arizona wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:27 pm That's an interesting opinion, we'll see if judge and/or jury think crossing state lines to commit felonies is "totally irrelevant" or not at trial I suppose.
He's not charged with any federal crimes. He's charged under state law in WI.

The fact could be used as evidence by the jury, that is always true.
Anders, I'm not arguing that he is charged with a federal crime. If I were to walk outside and get in a fist fight outside my home, that's one thing. If I were spoiling for a fight and crossed a state line (or even just drove across town, let's not get caught up in this state line thing) to find one, that is something likely to be looked at differently by a judge and jury than if something spontaneous just happened. There was nothing spontaneous here. IANAL, but from following this kind of thing for many years, I would imagine that sort of thing will be taken under consideration at some point, yes.
OK, it sounds like we're not disagreeing. It's not the arbitrary state border that matters. The distance he traveled could matter. His claimed connections to the town matter. But the fact that he passed a border sign on the highway on his drive doesn't matter.

BTW he did not originally travel to Kenosha for the purpose of attending the protest. Per the Washington Post, he traveled the day before to work his lifeguard job. He stayed over along with his sister at Dominic Black's. So he was already in Kenosha the next morning. At some point that day he decided to go armed with Black to guard a Car Source lot. It's a decision to stay in Kenosha, NOT to go home as he otherwise might have done. Arguably similar. But not making a special "journey" from Illinois to the far-off land of Wisconsin for the purpose.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#72

Post by Uninformed »

Bugger. I’m not very good at speculating :bag:
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#73

Post by andersweinstein »

bob wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:59 pm
andersweinstein wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:24 pm
bob wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:29 am
Good to know that speculation is now evidence.
Speculation was not being offered as evidence.
But it was: You are fabricating evidence of a benign motive. Because a benign motive fits your preferred narrative, and disproves your disfavored narrative.

The only thing less credible than spinning fantasies is to gaslight that you aren't.
If it is not in fact true the Rittenhouse had a connection to Kenosha, it's not because of the state line.
Again, the speculation is doing all the work: There's no evidence it is true. "Funny" how your speculation only works one way.
1. Say you argue: [p] he crossed a state line to get to Kenosha; therefore it is probable that [q] he had no connection to Kenosha [/was an outside agitator/had evil motives/whatever]. I object: q doesn't follow from p at all! Someone from a nearby border town could *easily* have more connection to Kenosha than someone else who traveled to Kenosha from within WI. I am not *speculating* about what is true and presenting my speculation as evidence. I am explaining why [p] is not good evidence for [q].

I think nothing about his motives is rendered more probable by the fact that he happened to cross a state line a mile from his house. If you say he traveled a long way, that could be relevant.

2. In point of fact, there is evidence he had connections to nearby Kenosha. He worked a job there. He had the buddy, Dominic Black, whom he knew well enough to stay over with. And reportedly he and Black used to go together to a place "up North" and shoot targets with their guns. People can differ in how strong they judge this evidence to be. But it is some evidence.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#74

Post by andersweinstein »

bill_g wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:44 pm The boyfriend was at the demonstration. He was armed. He also purchased the weapon that Kyle immediately carried that evening at the same demonstration. So, one could infer the weapon was intended for that demonstration.
The weapon was purchased in the spring, months before. Black said he and Rittenhouse used to shoot targets and clay pigeons at a Black family place up north. The gun was definitely not purchased for the demonstration.

It is true that on the day of the protest, Rittenhouse purchased the sling he used to carry the weapon.
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Re: Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

#75

Post by andersweinstein »

If you're interested, this video report from the Washington Post lays out a lot of interesting details about the events.

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