Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? #Birther

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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#101

Post by Adrianinflorida » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:03 am

It's an argument that will never be "won". There could be a video, taken from a GoPro camera mounted to baby Barack'so head, showing the birth, him looking back at Stanley Ann, looking out the hospital window at Diamond Head and then at a newspaper with the date of his birth, and they'd still not believe it

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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#102

Post by Suranis » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:57 am

Your logic and presentation was fine.

I've found that one of the better ways of dealing with this shit is to keep insisting that they achnolage that they were wrong in the first fact that you debunked. What they want is to waste your time by tossing out breadcrumbs for you to debunk and to have the little thrill of saying bad things about the guy they hate. The last thing they want to do is to say they were wrong. So if every one of your replies is e.g. "Do you admit you were wrong about the grandmother saying he was born in kenya?" and stick to it like a rabid dog, they will initially keep tossing lies, then fly into a rage when you ignore their breadcrumbs and keep insisting they admit they were wrong.

So try that hold Reeds feet to the fire on one ot 2 topics no matter how much he tries to distract you.
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#103

Post by bob » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:27 am

Plutodog wrote:You were deliberately insulted in place of a reasoned response. Don't take it personally. It wasn't an argument of any integrity. Illigitimi non carborundum.
Exactly. If a colleague (or someone I otherwise respect) critiques my reasoning, we can take the time to break down the reasoning, find the flaws, and agree on how to improve the final product. Which is just about the opposite intention of comment sections on the internet. Reed was just being insulting to get under your skin, and to avoid discussing the merits.

Your argument was not "logical" in that it did not directly address the topic as defined by Reed, i.e., why have political hacks and media types "suddenly" decided that birthers are racists. An honest assessment of that question, of course, requires unpacking what birtherism is, which you attempted to do. But Reed was more interested in making you defend straw-man positions, and you didn't play his game. Hence the ad hominem.

Arguing on the internet is really an exercise in controlling the narrative. (And managing your own expectations. ;) )
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#104

Post by Orlylicious » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:13 pm

:shock: :smoking:

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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#105

Post by bob » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:20 pm

McClatchy DC: 2 Clinton supporters in ’08 reportedly shared Obama ‘birther’ story:
Meanwhile, former McClatchy Washington Bureau Chief James Asher tweeted Friday that Blumenthal had “told me in person” that Obama was born in Kenya.

[ * * * ]

Blumenthal, who worked in the White House with President Bill Clinton and later was employed by the Clinton Foundation, could not be reached Friday but said in an email to The Boston Globe, “This is false. Period.”
Proving, yet again, a lie travels around the globe while the truth is putting on its shoes.
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#106

Post by Orlylicious » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:27 pm

Glenn was fast! Good, Christie was shameful.
Christie’s claim that Trump did not ‘on a regular basis’ spout birther nonsense after 2011
By Glenn Kessler September 18 at 1:27 PM
JAKE TAPPER: “Well, just as a point of fact, again, Donald Trump did not accept when Barack Obama released his birth certificate in 2011. He kept up this whole birther thing until Friday. That’s five years. But we only have a little time left. So, I want to ask you…”
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-N.J.): “No, but, Jake, that’s just not true. It’s not true that he kept it up for five years.”
TAPPER: “Sure, he did.”
CHRISTIE: “It’s simply not true.”
TAPPER: “It is true.”
CHRISTIE: “It wasn’t like he was talking — no, Jake, it wasn’t like — it wasn’t like he was talking about it on a regular basis until then.”
— Exchange on CNN”s “State of the Union,” Sept. 18, 2016
This is why Americans hate politics. A sitting governor goes on national television and when he is called out for an obvious falsehood, he simply repeats the inaccurate talking points over and over. This will possibly be our shortest fact check ever. The Facts: After Donald Trump raised the bogus birther issue in 2011, while testing the waters for a presidential run, President Obama released his long-form birth certificate on April 27, 2011. Yet Trump refused to take that as an acceptable response. Here are some of his tweets:
2012:
An 'extremely credible source' has called my office and told me that @BarackObama's birth certificate is a fraud.
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 6, 2012

2013:
How amazing, the State Health Director who verified copies of Obama’s “birth certificate” died in plane crash today. All others lived
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 12, 2013

2014:
@futureicon: @pinksugar61 Obama also fabricated his own birth certificate after being pressured to produce one by @realDonaldTrump"
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 23, 2014
Slate magazine counted nearly 40 Trump tweets since 2011 that raise questions about Obama’s birth. Even after Trump starting running for president last year, he continued to question the president’s background in television interviews.

In August 2015, Trump earned Four Pinocchios for falsely claiming that Obama spent $4 million to keep his college records hidden. He made this statement while deflecting a question about his birther comments that left in doubt his position on whether the president was a natural-born U.S. citizen: “Well, I don’t like talking about it anymore because, honestly, I have my own feelings.” Trump, like many of his surrogates, also falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton or her 2008 campaign originated the birther controversy. Not until Friday — Sept. 16, 2016 — did Trump firmly say he believed Obama was born in the United States. But he did not apologize — and he again falsely accused Clinton of starting the controversy.

The Pinocchio Test

This is such bogus spin that we have to wonder how Christie manages to say it with a straight face. Regular readers know we shy away from using the word “lie,” but clearly Christie is either lying or he is so misinformed that he has no business appearing on television. Kudos to Tapper for refusing to let Christie get away with it.

Four Pinocchios
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fac ... fter-2011/
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#107

Post by bob » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:30 pm

CBS: Unlike Trump, Sheriff Arpaio not ready to conclude Obama born in U.S.:
Donald Trump may be backing down from the "birther" movement, but Sheriff Joe Arpaio is not.

On Friday, Arpaio said his office continues to investigate the authenticity of President Obama's birth certificate. The Sheriff's Cold Case Posse launched the inquiry in 2011.

"It's a very complex investigation," Arpaio said.

The Maricopa County Sheriff said he wasn't sure why Trump decided to disavow the birther theory after years as one of its chief proponents but made it clear Trump's reversal would not affect his support of the Republican presidential nominee.

[ * * * ]

"First of all, I never briefed him on what we have, OK? Let's get that straight," he said. "He can say what he wants. I still support him. What difference does it make? You think I'm going to dissect everything he says?"

[ * * * ]

"I think [Trump] is being pressured to say it so that the status quo can get their point across," said Shirley Palazzola. "I think he's just appeasing the people who need to be appeased."

[ * * * ]

Sheriff Arpaio said he was prepared to extend the birth certificate investigation beyond President Obama's time in office.

"Of course," Arpaio said. "It has nothing to do with President Obama. It has to do with a forged government document. ID theft."
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8/16

#108

Post by bob » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:44 pm

BillTheCat wrote:LOL Robert Laity. Great to see he's still a nobody who is wasting his life telling lies and believing them.
:fingerwag: :

P&E: Eligibility Activist Writes to Donald Trump About His “Obama Born in the United States” Declaration.

Laity's :yankyank: at the link. :yawn:
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#109

Post by bob » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:18 pm

MSNBC (WashPo): Donald Trump's surrogates try to explain his evolution on birtherism.

Executive summary: a recap today's lies (about Trump's lies) told by Christie, Pence, and Conway.
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#110

Post by esseff44 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:43 pm

bob wrote:MSNBC (WashPo): Donald Trump's surrogates try to explain his evolution on birtherism.

Executive summary: a recap today's lies (about Trump's lies) told by Christie, Pence, and Conway.
At one point, host Martha Raddatz asked Pence, "Why did it take him so long to put it to an end?"

"It's over," Pence responded.

To that, Raddatz said, "It's not over."
The media has been dancing to Trump's fiddle all this time. However, they got so crassly and boldly played last Friday that some of them are beginning to push back. How long will it last? How far will it go? How much difference will it make? Can they undo all the damage they have done by gaily dancing to Trump's fiddling? Stay tuned.

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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#111

Post by bob » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:31 pm

Perhaps it the biases of the media I consume, but I feel there's an uptick in article flatly calling Trump's claims to be false, or a lie.
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#112

Post by p0rtia » Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:49 pm

:yeah:
No matter where you go, there you are! :towel:
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#113

Post by RVInit » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:09 pm

p0rtia wrote: :yeah:
Let's hope we are beginning to see a ball starting to roll down a steep and tall hill. It's getting to be about the right time for it.
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#114

Post by Adrianinflorida » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:44 pm

A self inflicted "October Surprise "

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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#115

Post by PatGund » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:50 pm

My three cents:

Trump was, is, and continues to be a birther. He's lying when he says he isn't, just as he's lying when he tries to blame the 2008 Clinton campaign.

Most of his base are still birthers. Some of the retired military supporting are birthers. Many of his campaign surrogates are birthers.

Trump IS a Birther, period.

The only reason he said what he said is to try and get votes and throw mud at Hillary Clinton. And the simple fact of the matter is, most birthers continue to believe that Trump is STILL a birther, still one of them, still their last "great WHITE hope", and they're chomping on the bit over the idea that a president Trump (gag!) will do a 180 once in office, and have Barack Obama tried, convicted, and executed for daring to be President.

Leopards rarely change their spots. Trump is, IMHO, still as much of a birther as Arpaio, Corsi, Farah, Stone, or any other birther supporting him

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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#116

Post by DrIrvingFinegarten » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:02 pm

Suranis wrote:Your logic and presentation was fine.

I've found that one of the better ways of dealing with this shit is to keep insisting that they achnolage that they were wrong in the first fact that you debunked. What they want is to waste your time by tossing out breadcrumbs for you to debunk and to have the little thrill of saying bad things about the guy they hate. The last thing they want to do is to say they were wrong. So if every one of your replies is e.g. "Do you admit you were wrong about the grandmother saying he was born in kenya?" and stick to it like a rabid dog, they will initially keep tossing lies, then fly into a rage when you ignore their breadcrumbs and keep insisting they admit they were wrong.

So try that hold Reeds feet to the fire on one ot 2 topics no matter how much he tries to distract you.
Just wondering, I've never been to law school or been involved in any sort of debate club or anything like that.

In those things, how high are the standards for logic and research?

Is what I said up to those standards?

In those settings will your adversaries exploit any hole in your argument, no matter how small?

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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#117

Post by Orlylicious » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:28 pm

POLITICO:
Birther Nation: Alive and Well
Whatever Trump said yesterday, his supporters know he’s privately agreed with them all along.
By Michael Grunwald September 17, 2016
Phil Wolf, a birther who owns a used car dealership in Colorado, stands in front of a billboard on his auto lot on November 21, 2009.

Image

MIAMI—Many of Donald Trump’s supporters at his raucous rally here Friday night still believe President Obama was born in Kenya. “I know it in my heart,” said Pedro Almeyda, an elevator engineer. Others still aren’t sure. “He doesn’t show love for this country, but who knows?” asked Carmen Suarez, a retired nurse. And still others always knew Obama is a native-born American. “I never took that stuff seriously,” said James Fry, the owner of a real estate firm.

But this much was clear: Trump’s sudden abandonment of his five-year birther crusade on Friday does not seem to have changed how his supporters view either him or Obama. In interviews at the rally, the birthers and non-birthers all seemed to think that Trump has privately agreed with them all along, and all praised his flip-flop as a shrewd political stratagem to change an inconvenient subject. Most of them also trashed Obama as an unpatriotic disaster, whether or not they thought he was really born here.

“I never believed Obama was a real American, but really, I could give a crap,” said Jim Neubauer, a self-employed inventor who came to the rally with his grandson. “He’s been terrible, Trump will be great, and Democrats are just using this to try to call him racist. Let’s talk about stuff that matters.”
***
But for many Republicans, the birther speculation has felt like a satisfying explanation of a president with an African name and an exotic background who always felt alien to their experience as well as hostile to their ideology. Lazaro Lazano, an anti-Castro activist, thinks Obama is pro-Castro, pro-terrorist, and anti-American, and always assumed he was born abroad. He still thinks that, but now that Trump has backed off, Lazano said he must admit that it’s not something he can know for certain. “I wasn’t there when he was born,” Lazano said. “But I’ll tell you this: I know for a fact that he’s a Muslim.”
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#118

Post by DrIrvingFinegarten » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:54 pm

Another question, I said to somebody (not Reed) about the birther movement, that if you continue to question Obama's eligibility, I may not call you a racist, but I don't want to hear you complain when someone calls you a racist"

I was told that was a stupid thing to say.

Why is it stupid?

Am I just too stupid to understand why it's stupid?

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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#119

Post by bob » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:08 am

DrIrvingFinegarten wrote:Another question, I said to somebody (not Reed) about the birther movement, that if you continue to question Obama's eligibility, I may not call you a racist, but I don't want to hear you complain when someone calls you a racist"

I was told that was a stupid thing to say.

Why is it stupid?
It sounds like someone is offended by being called (indirectly) a racist.

People who insist that birthers are not racists (and most birthers themselves) typically respond with, "I understand that Obama has been subjected to an unprecedented level of scrutiny. But that scrutiny is justified, for the following reasons . . . ." And then it's off to the birftown races.
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#120

Post by DrIrvingFinegarten » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:35 am

bob wrote:
DrIrvingFinegarten wrote:Another question, I said to somebody (not Reed) about the birther movement, that if you continue to question Obama's eligibility, I may not call you a racist, but I don't want to hear you complain when someone calls you a racist"

I was told that was a stupid thing to say.

Why is it stupid?
It sounds like someone is offended by being called (indirectly) a racist.

People who insist that birthers are not racists (and most birthers themselves) typically respond with, "I understand that Obama has been subjected to an unprecedented level of scrutiny. But that scrutiny is justified, for the following reasons . . . ." And then it's off to the birftown races.

Maybe I'm too thin-skinned. May it's personality flaw.
I remember when I was a student getting bad grades for what I thought was good work.
I didn't take that very well back then.

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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#121

Post by Sam the Centipede » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:43 am

DrIrvingFinegarten wrote:
Suranis wrote:Your logic and presentation was fine. :snippity:
Just wondering, I've never been to law school or been involved in any sort of debate club or anything like that.

In those things, how high are the standards for logic and research? :snippity:
:-D Suranis is no lawyer either (AFAIK) but he is probably applying Jesuitical standards - and if the Jesuits would like it, I think they compete on equal terms or better with lawyers in the "how to argue stuff" game! :-D

I like his advice for avoiding being pulled into debating quicksand with these guys arguing crap: either stay away from the quicksand altogether (why waste your time?) or use Suranis's "broken record" technique to avoid them Gish Galloping you.

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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#122

Post by Jim » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:22 am

I found the beat way to destroy birthers is not by debunking them, but by getting them to debunk themselves. Never respond to them with anything but a question. They will end up making Obama eligible themselves. Then they will restart their circular logic again. Sort of like a child "do it again"

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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#123

Post by bob » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:14 pm

The reality is that anyone, in 2016, "just asking questions" about Obama, isn't.
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#124

Post by bob » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:00 pm

No Quarter (Larry Johnson): Confessions of a Hillary Insider:
I am shocked at the audacity of Hillary Clinton to decry Donald Trump as a birther because her campaign not only pushed that item in a bid to discredit Barack Obama, but mounted a sustained campaign attack Obama on a broad array of issues. How do I know? I was part of that effort and was in regular email and phone coordination with Sidney Blumenthal. Sidney was the conduit who fed damaging material to me that I subsequently posted on my blog.

In some cases Sid Blumenthal actually provided a draft piece that I would slightly modify and publish under my name. Most of the time, however, Sid provided background information and researched material that I would use to craft pieces. How many? I am providing the links to 63 blog articles that I posted (and in one case was posted by Susan Hudgens, who assisted with the blog) between January 2008 and June 30, 2008.

Here is simple summary of material (in writing or through a verbal briefing) that I received from Sid?

[ * * * ]

5. Information concerning allegations that Barack Obama was not a natural born citizen.
6. Information concerning Barack Obama being adopted by Indonesian Muslim Lolo Soetoro
But see:
Johnson wrote:Here is one more irony–the Birth Certificate issue was not pushed hot and heavy by Sid to me.
Johnson fails to substantiate the key allegation: That birtherism started with Clinton. If a Clinton surrogate (like Blumenthal) was peddling birtherism in March 2008 (and onward), then (absent further evidence) it did not start with her.

See also Limbaugh stating (in 2011) that birtherism started with Johnson.
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#125

Post by PatGund » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:36 pm

Why do I get the feeling that Larry Johnson is lying though his teeth.

NoQuarter reprinted birther crap from the same places that "Texas Darlin'" did. Namely Town Hall, Atlas Shrugged, and Free Republic. And they were so heavily in the PUMA category that if ANYONE from the Clinton campaign had been passing info to them, they would have been trumpeting it to the high heavens.

And wow, he even brings up the mythical "Whitey" tape that they all talked about but nobody was ever able to find.

Sorry, don't buy it, don't even rent it

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