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Confederate monuments

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Volkonski
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Confederate monuments

#1

Post by Volkonski »

Stone Mountain Park Denies Permit For Confederate Event

https://www.wabe.org/stone-mountain-par ... ate-event/
The gathering was slated for Saturday but a March 31 letter from memorial association CEO Bill Stephens denied the necessary permit, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported.

Stephens listed three reasons for the denial including safety concerns, specifically the pandemic and racial tensions.

“With the volatile nature of events of the immediate past and ongoing today, there is a clear and present danger to members of the (Sons of Confederate Veterans), potential counterprotesters, park employees and guests,” Stephens wrote.

Stephens also said Silver Dollar City, the group contracted to run the park’s attractions, would not allow the group to access the Memorial Plaza Lawn.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#2

Post by noblepa »

The argument that confederate monuments are not honoring the racists who ran the confederacy is BS. You don't erect a statue of someone for any other reason.

If "history" were the only reason for keeping the statues, why do we have no statues of Adolph Hitler? He is arguably the most historic figure of the twentieth century. He was even Time Magazine's "Man of the Year".

We don't have statues of him because he was evil incarnate. The cause he fought for was evil.

Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis may not have been personally as evil as Hitler, but their cause was just as evil as his.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#3

Post by zekeb »

I have much more respect for Lee than I have for Davis. Don't take that as me heaping high praise on Lee. Davis ran away chickenshit after the surrender. Lee faced the music.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#4

Post by roadscholar »

And Lee instructed Southerners to return to being loyal citizens of the USA, and NOT to fly the rebel flag. Not that many of them heeded him, but still.

The man was no Nathan Forrest nor Jeff Davis neither. He deserves the distinction of at least being honorable in defeat.

It’s a shame to destroy art, when it can be re-contextualized. There is a place for Nazi symbols, and it’s a WWII museum, not the streets of Charlottesville. And a place for a Confederate statue: a private cemetery for fallen Southern soldiers, not a town square maintained by black families’ taxes and right in their faces.

Context really is everything.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#5

Post by somerset »

roadscholar wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:41 pm And Lee instructed Southerners to return to being loyal citizens of the USA, and NOT to fly the rebel flag. Not that many of them heeded him, but still.

The man was no Nathan Forrest nor Jeff Davis neither. He deserves the distinction of at least being honorable in defeat.

It’s a shame to destroy art, when it can be re-contextualized. There is a place for Nazi symbols, and it’s a WWII museum, not the streets of Charlottesville. And a place for a Confederate statue: a private cemetery for fallen Southern soldiers, not a town square maintained by black families’ taxes and right in their faces.

Context really is everything.
Tough to do when it's carved into the side of a mountain.

Still, I agree completely with you about destroying art. The Taliban's act of destroying similar 1500 year old buddhist statues carved into a mountainside was reprehensible.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#6

Post by AndyinPA »

My understanding is that Stone Mountain could be taken care of fairly easily. It takes a lot of upkeep to keep the face of that mountain free of plant life. I've seen it suggested that if it were bombarded with seeds, most of it would be covered over in a year or two to the point where it would soon not be visible.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#7

Post by Dave from down under »

Some “art” needs a “redo”...

Just as I will happily paint over someone’s graffiti, or mop up a “performance artists” vomit on the side walk, a period cannon fired by the descents of southern slaves and/or Northern soldiers would have my full support.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#8

Post by p0rtia »

Keep reading the thread title as:

Confederate Moments

It works.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#9

Post by RVInit »

Dave from down under wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:46 pm Some “art” needs a “redo”...

Just as I will happily paint over someone’s graffiti, or mop up a “performance artists” vomit on the side walk, a period cannon fired by the descents of southern slaves and/or Northern soldiers would have my full support.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#10

Post by bill_g »

This seems apropos for the subject matter.

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Re: Confederate monuments

#11

Post by northland10 »

noblepa wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:41 pm The argument that confederate monuments are not honoring the racists who ran the confederacy is BS. You don't erect a statue of someone for any other reason.
In all fairness, the monuments were not put up to honor the persons. They are symbols of the "lost cause" ideology and nothing more. Many of the monument supporters likely don't even know about the person they claim they are honoring and quite simply, they don't care. It is an expression of identity, not an honorific.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#12

Post by noblepa »

northland10 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:03 am
noblepa wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:41 pm The argument that confederate monuments are not honoring the racists who ran the confederacy is BS. You don't erect a statue of someone for any other reason.
In all fairness, the monuments were not put up to honor the persons. They are symbols of the "lost cause" ideology and nothing more. Many of the monument supporters likely don't even know about the person they claim they are honoring and quite simply, they don't care. It is an expression of identity, not an honorific.
In a way, that makes them even worse, IMHO.

You can argue that Lee and to a lesser extent, some of the others, were basically honorable men, but to honor the "cause" is insulting. The "cause", lost or otherwise, was evil. The "cause" was the perpetuation of slavery.

It is also true that many, if not most, of the statues in question were erected, not in the immediate aftermath of the civil war, but in the 1890's through the 1930's, as a way to intimidate the black population during the Jim Crow era. This makes them even more offensive.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#13

Post by northland10 »

noblepa wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:11 am
northland10 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:03 am
noblepa wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:41 pm The argument that confederate monuments are not honoring the racists who ran the confederacy is BS. You don't erect a statue of someone for any other reason.
In all fairness, the monuments were not put up to honor the persons. They are symbols of the "lost cause" ideology and nothing more. Many of the monument supporters likely don't even know about the person they claim they are honoring and quite simply, they don't care. It is an expression of identity, not an honorific.
In a way, that makes them even worse, IMHO.

You can argue that Lee and to a lesser extent, some of the others, were basically honorable men, but to honor the "cause" is insulting. The "cause", lost or otherwise, was evil. The "cause" was the perpetuation of slavery.

It is also true that many, if not most, of the statues in question were erected, not in the immediate aftermath of the civil war, but in the 1890's through the 1930's, as a way to intimidate the black population during the Jim Crow era. This makes them even more offensive.
Yep
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Re: Confederate monuments

#14

Post by Volkonski »

Atlanta school that had honored Confederate general renamed for MLB great Hank Aaron

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/m ... 219959002/
The Atlanta Board of Education voted unanimously to change the name of Forrest Hill Academy to the Hank Aaron New Beginnings Academy.

"It is very important that we understand our history," board member Michelle Olympiadis said during the meeting. "It’s very important that we understand where we are coming from."

The school had been named after Nathan Bedford Forrest, who was a lieutenant general in the Confederate Army and also became known for being one of the founding figures of the Ku Klux Klan. He eventually became "Grand Wizard" of the organization.

Aaron, who broke Babe Ruth's career record for most home runs and held the mark at 755 until Barry Bonds eclipsed him in 2007, died in January. He was 86.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#15

Post by Frater I*I »

AndyinPA wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:39 pm My understanding is that Stone Mountain could be taken care of fairly easily. It takes a lot of upkeep to keep the face of that mountain free of plant life. I've seen it suggested that if it were bombarded with seeds, most of it would be covered over in a year or two to the point where it would soon not be visible.
A single word: Kudzu.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#16

Post by somerset »

noblepa wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:11 am
northland10 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:03 am
noblepa wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:41 pm The argument that confederate monuments are not honoring the racists who ran the confederacy is BS. You don't erect a statue of someone for any other reason.
In all fairness, the monuments were not put up to honor the persons. They are symbols of the "lost cause" ideology and nothing more. Many of the monument supporters likely don't even know about the person they claim they are honoring and quite simply, they don't care. It is an expression of identity, not an honorific.
In a way, that makes them even worse, IMHO.

You can argue that Lee and to a lesser extent, some of the others, were basically honorable men, but to honor the "cause" is insulting. The "cause", lost or otherwise, was evil. The "cause" was the perpetuation of slavery.

It is also true that many, if not most, of the statues in question were erected, not in the immediate aftermath of the civil war, but in the 1890's through the 1930's, as a way to intimidate the black population during the Jim Crow era. This makes them even more offensive.
I'd argue the "cause" was, and still is, white supremacy. Slavery of non-whites is acceptable to a white supremacist, as is doing anything else necessary to maintain power (Jim Crow laws, voter suppression, lynchings, KKK marches, etc.).

A while back, someone on The Fogbow mentioned the book, "Robert E. Lee and Me" by Ty Seidule. On that recommendation I bought a copy and finished reading it about a month ago. I highly recommend it. It paints Lee in a less flattering light, and gets deep into the roots of "the Cause" and systemic racism in the United States.

And I like the idea of letting vegetation and nature take their course with the monument :biggrin:
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Re: Confederate monuments

#17

Post by sugar magnolia »

Frater I*I wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:19 pm
AndyinPA wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:39 pm My understanding is that Stone Mountain could be taken care of fairly easily. It takes a lot of upkeep to keep the face of that mountain free of plant life. I've seen it suggested that if it were bombarded with seeds, most of it would be covered over in a year or two to the point where it would soon not be visible.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#18

Post by bill_g »

sugar magnolia wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:27 pm
Frater I*I wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:19 pm
AndyinPA wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:39 pm My understanding is that Stone Mountain could be taken care of fairly easily. It takes a lot of upkeep to keep the face of that mountain free of plant life. I've seen it suggested that if it were bombarded with seeds, most of it would be covered over in a year or two to the point where it would soon not be visible.
A single word: Kudzu.
I'll see your kudzu and raise you a wisteria vine.
The only problem with letting nature take over will be future anthropologists finding them, and wondering who these icons of society were, and how they came to be forgotten.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#19

Post by Frater I*I »

sugar magnolia wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:27 pm
I'll see your kudzu and raise you a wisteria vine.
:thumbsup:
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He's got the answers to ease my curiosity, He dreamed a god up and called it Christianity"

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Re: Confederate monuments

#20

Post by Volkonski »



Adam Weinstein
@AdamWeinstein
Today is "Confederate Memorial Day" in Florida, as good a day as any to display the Confederacy's last flag

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Re: Confederate monuments

#21

Post by much ado »

bill_g wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:49 pm
sugar magnolia wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:27 pm
Frater I*I wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:19 pm

A single word: Kudzu.
I'll see your kudzu and raise you a wisteria vine.
The only problem with letting nature take over will be future anthropologists finding them, and wondering who these icons of society were, and how they came to be forgotten.
That's okay. Future anthropologists will need something to keep them busy.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#22

Post by AndyinPA »

https://www.thedailybeast.com/kkk-leade ... ia=desktop
The remains of Confederate general and KKK leader Nathan Bedford Forrest and his wife were dug up from a Memphis park and removed, along with a statue, to an undisclosed location. Descendants of Forrest, who was also a slave trader, were present during the exhumation, which was sparked by a grassroots effort to have monuments to racists removed from the city, the Commercial Appeal reported. “I think the Forrest family wanted the remains of their ancestor to rest in peace, because there was never going to be peace here,” Shelby County Commissioner Van Turner said. The remains and statute will eventually be transferred to the National Confederate Museum.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#23

Post by sugar magnolia »

AndyinPA wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:02 pm https://www.thedailybeast.com/kkk-leade ... ia=desktop
The remains of Confederate general and KKK leader Nathan Bedford Forrest and his wife were dug up from a Memphis park and removed, along with a statue, to an undisclosed location. Descendants of Forrest, who was also a slave trader, were present during the exhumation, which was sparked by a grassroots effort to have monuments to racists removed from the city, the Commercial Appeal reported. “I think the Forrest family wanted the remains of their ancestor to rest in peace, because there was never going to be peace here,” Shelby County Commissioner Van Turner said. The remains and statute will eventually be transferred to the National Confederate Museum.
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Re: Confederate monuments

#24

Post by neonzx »

sugar magnolia wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:54 pm
"Somebody needs to say a good word for slavery."
We, in SWFLorida, did permanently evict the Lee County, FL, statue of Robert E. Lee from our public property, right? I dunno where the confederates put it and i don't care.

But is kinda funny because of the county name. 8-)
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Re: Confederate monuments

#25

Post by Uninformed »

In the UK the equivalent of the US Civil War happened over couple of hundred years earlier so the two can’t be easily compared in terms of the existing statuary and monuments. On the other hand, the two conflicts differed in that one was about monarchy v “democracy” and the other, despite any underlying motives there may have been, was about race. So the legacy is very different in nature. Having said that I believe, for example, if someone is fortunate enough to earn a place at Rhodes College, Oxford then the statue to Cecil Rhodes should remain as a permanent reminder of the colonial exploitation that their privilege was founded on. YMMV.
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