Evolving Cultural Viewpoints

[sugar magnolia]

When my son was little, someone gave us a small comforter style blanket with a scene from Winnie the Pooh printed on it.

Christopher Robin was shown as a little boy with short hair and wearing short pants.

I found it rather amusing how they had totally changed the depiction from the original illustrations.

What I've always thought were the original illustrations for the book show him in short pants with a bowl haircut. Do you have a link to others?

[Suranis]

These are his original drawings.

https://www.pinterest.ie/ohmiacici/e-h- ... -drawings/

[Volkonski]

At first Winnie-the-Pooh was not drawn in color and had no shirt. Christopher Robin's illustration looked a lot like Christopher Robin Milne-

[PaulG]

I feel like I'm being whooshed.

Anyway, part of the problem with old children's books is that, even without the racism, they describe what different places in the world were like a hundred years ago. Nowadays it's all on instagram and really there isn't a whole lot you could write a book like Mulberry St. about. Everybody has got an iPhone or similar so a huge chunk of the world is carrying megapixel cameras around. You can see in a few minutes that ... people are pretty much just people.

Off Topic

Does anyone watch QI? Last night I was watching one and they mentioned the BT Tower which is space needle sort of thing in London. I remember walking London around in the early 80's, seeing it and thinking "Wow, who knew this was here? Is it not used anymore? You can find anything in London" etc. etc. What I didn't know (ignorant tourist) until QI last night, was that the BT Tower was a state secret, and if I had a camera, I could have been in violation of the Official Secrets Act. It was not to be mentioned or photographed. There was a revolving restaurant in years past. Getting reservations and driving directions must have been a bitch.

[Volkonski]

Can someone point me to the issue? Maybe I'm blind or deaf.

So, "even Jane could think of that." Cringeworthy.

[Azastan]

Can someone point me to the issue? Maybe I'm blind or deaf.

So, "even Jane could think of that." Cringeworthy.

Neonzx, you didn't see it because it's so ingrained that you are blind to it. Little girls growing up listening to this book being read, or reading it for themselves, knew that they were being told that they weren't as smart as little boys. You either smothered your resentment, or risked being chastized for daring to point this out, and you would get taken aside and told to shut up, because how else would you snag a husband?

[Volkonski]

Just thinking of some other titles that were withdrawn or modified over the decades.

T.S. Elliot's "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats" upon which the musical "Cats!" is based includes this problematic stanza-

Then GILBERT gave the signal to his fierce Mongolian horde;
With a frightful burst of fireworks the Ch*nks they swarmed aboard.
Abandoning their sampans, and their pullaways and junks,
They battened down the hatches on the crew within their bunks.

The 1981 original cast performances included that line as did the OC recording that they made. When Lord Webber at al made a video version for TV in 1998 that song was not included at all.

[Volkonski]

Can someone point me to the issue? Maybe I'm blind or deaf.

So, "even Jane could think of that." Cringeworthy.

Neonzx, you didn't see it because it's so ingrained that you are blind to it. Little girls growing up listening to this book being read, or reading it for themselves, knew that they were being told that they weren't as smart as little boys. You either smothered your resentment, or risked being chastized for daring to point this out, and you would get taken aside and told to shut up, because how else would you snag a husband?

The whole verse reads-

"Say- anyone could think that,
Jack or Fred or Joe or Nat.
Say, even Jane could think of that."

Jane is the only female mentioned or shown in the book. She is there to reinforce how bad the idea is because she is even less of a thinker than the four boys mentioned.

[Volkonski]

Turns out that in later editions of "And To Think That I Saw It On Mulberry Street" Dr. Seuss himself changed "Chinaman" to "Chinese man" and eliminated the pigtail. He didn't do anything about Jane.

ScreenHunter_357 Mar. 06 17.08.jpg (9.32 KiB) Viewed 3358 times

[sugar magnolia]

Turns out that in later editions of "And To Think That I Saw It On Mulberry Street" Dr. Seuss himself changed "Chinaman" to "Chinese man" and eliminated the pigtail. He didn't do anything about Jane.

ScreenHunter_357 Mar. 06 17.08.jpg

He was also yellow in the original.

[AndyinPA]

I can remember when I was growing up in a really mainline Protestant church feeling guilty for all the sins of the world because I was a girl and so was Eve.

[Volkonski]

Turns out that in later editions of "And To Think That I Saw It On Mulberry Street" Dr. Seuss himself changed "Chinaman" to "Chinese man" and eliminated the pigtail. He didn't do anything about Jane.

ScreenHunter_357 Mar. 06 17.08.jpg

He was also yellow in the original.

Yes-

[Volkonski]

This one is bad.

“Black in the woodpile” was once so mainstream that in 1929, Dr. Seuss, despite his liberal sympathies for blacks, made use of it in a humorous cartoon published in Judge, a satirical magazine. Shoppers in “the World’s Most Prosperous Department Store” examine unlikely products that would annoy rather than benefit anyone foolish enough to buy them: the store offers flies for ointments, monkey wrenches for machinery, and niggers for woodpiles, satisfaction guaranteed.

https://counter-currents.com/2017/03/a- ... -woodpile/

[Suranis]

Just thinking of some other titles that were withdrawn or modified over the decades.

T.S. Elliot's "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats" upon which the musical "Cats!" is based includes this problematic stanza-

Then GILBERT gave the signal to his fierce Mongolian horde;
With a frightful burst of fireworks the Ch*nks they swarmed aboard.
Abandoning their sampans, and their pullaways and junks,
They battened down the hatches on the crew within their bunks.

The 1981 original cast performances included that line as did the OC recording that they made. When Lord Webber at al made a video version for TV in 1998 that song was not included at all.

And its a travesty because "the Legend of Growltiger" was a magnificent song. And Webber replaced it with a song that was frankly crap.

They could have easilly replaced the word, as the Chinese were pretty much the good guys.

[Lani]

I can remember when I was growing up in a really mainline Protestant church feeling guilty for all the sins of the world because I was a girl and so was Eve.

OMG, me, too. And that's why childbirth is painful and why we must obey men.

[Volkonski]

Turner Classic Movies is going to run notices before showing certain films.



So far on the list-

• “Gone With the Wind”
• “Seven Brides for Seven Brothers”
• “Rope”
• “The Four Feathers”
• “Woman of the Year”
• “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner”
• “Gunga Din”
• “Sinbad, the Sailor”
• “The Jazz Singer”
• “The Searchers”
• “Breakfast at Tiffany’s”
• “Swing Time”
• “Stagecoach”
• “Tarzan, the Ape Man”
• “My Fair Lady”
• “The Children’s Hour”
• “Psycho”
• “Dragon Seed”

I have not seen all of these films. Of the ones I have seen the possibly offending parts are sometimes obvious and a few times not (My Fair Lady?).

[raison de arizona]

Turner Classic Movies is going to run notices before showing certain films.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c24D8qRqZlw&t=74s

So far on the list-

• “Gone With the Wind”
• “Seven Brides for Seven Brothers”
• “Rope”
• “The Four Feathers”
• “Woman of the Year”
• “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner”
• “Gunga Din”
• “Sinbad, the Sailor”
• “The Jazz Singer”
• “The Searchers”
• “Breakfast at Tiffany’s”
• “Swing Time”
• “Stagecoach”
• “Tarzan, the Ape Man”
• “My Fair Lady”
• “The Children’s Hour”
• “Psycho”
• “Dragon Seed”

I have not seen all of these films. Of the ones I have seen the possibly offending parts are sometimes obvious and a few times not (My Fair Lady?).

Dr Sparkes said even Oscar-winner My Fair Lady would have to be reclassified as the final scene has Professor Henry Higgins telling Eliza Doolittle to fetch his slippers.

"Even the end of My Fair Lady undermines everything that came before it in the film, so there are different social situations, processes that we need to highlight."

It's worth mentioning that these aren't just warnings. They are playing all these films this month and discussing them.

Stewart and fellow hosts Ben Mankiewicz, Dave Karger, Alicia Malone and Eddie Muller will take turns participating in roundtable introductions that touch on the history and cultural context of the films. They will also prep new viewers about moments they might find upsetting.

Thursdays, beginning at 5p Pacific.

March 4
“Gone With the Wind”
“Seven Brides for Seven Brothers”
“Rope”
“The Four Feathers”

March 11
“Woman of the Year”
“Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner”
“Gunga Din”
“Sinbad, the Sailor”
“The Jazz Singer”

March 18
“The Searchers”
“Breakfast at Tiffany’s”
“Swing Time”
“Stagecoach”
“Tarzan, the Ape Man”

March 25
“My Fair Lady”
“The Children’s Hour”
“Psycho”
“Dragon Seed”

[Volkonski]

Reframed Classics Trailer Reexamines Problematic Movies from the Past in New TCM Series
The hosts of TCM discuss the 'problematic' aspects of classic movies like Gone with the Wind, Psycho, and My Fair Lady in the new weekly series Reframed Classics

https://movieweb.com/reframed-classics-trailer/

"We know millions of people love these films," said TCM host Jacqueline Stewart, clarifying that the goal is not to take these movies away. "We're not saying 'This is how you should feel about "Psycho"' or 'This is how you should feel about Gone with the Wind. We're just trying to model ways of having longer and deeper conversations and not just cutting it off to 'I love this movie.' 'I hate this movie.' There's so much space in between."

Snip-

For example, airing on the March 25 episode, a look at Psycho will delve into certain elements of the Alfred Hitchcock classic that have since been criticized in more recent years. The hosts will discuss transgender identity in the movie and "the implications of equating gender fluidity and dressing in women's clothes with mental illness and violence," as well as sparking a "bigger conversation about sexuality in Alfred Hitchcock films."

On the same episode, the hosts will also speak about some of the perceived issues with My Fair Lady. Specifically, they'll discuss why the movie adaptation has a "less feminist ending" than the original stage play and "Henry Higgins' physical and psychological abuse of Eliza Dolittle. Not feeding her and stuffing marbles in her mouth are played for cute laughs in the film. Is it a commentary on misogyny or just plain misogyny?"

Last year, Gone with the Wind had also generated some controversy when it was briefly removed from HBO Max. The classic movie was later restored to the streamer along with a disclaimer warning viewers about its "racist depictions." Over on Disney+, several animated classics like Dumbo and Lady and the Tramp have also been slapped with similar disclaimers, while certain movies like Song of the South have been made entirely unavailable.

[roadscholar]

The idea that Psycho was in any way “equating gender fluidity and dressing in women's clothes with mental illness and violence" is utterly absurd. Sorry, I can’t take seriously any assertion that Hitch, making a horror movie about one deeply disturbed man, meant any sort of comment on cross-dressers in general.

Psychobabble baloney. Sells books, I guess.

[Suranis]

I'll just mention I cant see due to the eyestrain from rolling my eyes at this shit.

And Psycho? Huh???

Whats next, deep explanations that people in the past didn't have cell phones, and needed these things called phone booths?

As an aside I recently saw this video of Hattie McDaniel getting her Oscar for Best Supporting actress.

[HST's Ghost]

Pepe LePew has been cancelled. Can't believe it didn't happen when the Access Hollywood tape dropped...of Trump not Pepe...
I do seriously love the strip Krazy Kat by George Herriman, and it features a mouse who constantly schemes to throw a brick at Kat's head and Kat interprets it as a sign of affection... If it ever gets "canceled" - meaning outright banned, then I will worry...

► Show Spoiler

[neeneko]

The idea that Psycho was in any way “equating gender fluidity and dressing in women's clothes with mental illness and violence" is utterly absurd. Sorry, I can’t take seriously any assertion that Hitch, making a horror movie about one deeply disturbed man, meant any sort of comment on cross-dressers in general.

I would not be so sure about that. Hitchcock might not have set out to make a such a comment, but he drew on an existing stereotype of the time and further built the association. The equating was already there, he just utilized a trope in order to communicate something about the character to the viewer. Crossdressers at the time were considered deeply disturbed and mentally ill, and thus making it a part of a character was a way to communicate that they were also deeply disturbed and mentally ill.

[Azastan]

I would not be so sure about that. Hitchcock might not have set out to make a such a comment, but he drew on an existing stereotype of the time and further built the association. The equating was already there, he just utilized a trope in order to communicate something about the character to the viewer. Crossdressers at the time were considered deeply disturbed and mentally ill, and thus making it a part of a character was a way to communicate that they were also deeply disturbed and mentally ill.

Yes, this.

It feeds into a lot of stereotypes. Unmarried guy still apparently living with his mother (therefore, must be gay or something SERIOUSLY wrong with him if he can't find a woman to marry him). Then, crossdressing which solidifies the perception that he's gay, so must be perverted.

I see a lot of my friends 'upset' that Pepe LePew is 'cancelled'. I never liked that character, but didn't know why. Now, as an adult, I realize it's because he wouldn't take no for an answer. It's just a continuation of the trope that girls/women play coy, but if boys/men persist even through the NO, the boys/men will get what they want--sex--because that's really what the girls/women want, but can't admit it. This is so engrained in culture that it's almost impossible to overcome.

[neeneko]

It feeds into a lot of stereotypes. Unmarried guy still apparently living with his mother (therefore, must be gay or something SERIOUSLY wrong with him if he can't find a woman to marry him). Then, crossdressing which solidifies the perception that he's gay, so must be perverted.

*nod* it is a bit like including, say, a corrupt money grubbing evil banker and making them obviously jewish. You can argue that it is just a banker and that the banker is bad and you are telling the story of the bad banker, but jewish imagery is a big signal for 'hey, this banker is going to have XYZ traits'

[neeneko]

I see a lot of my friends 'upset' that Pepe LePew is 'cancelled'. I never liked that character, but didn't know why. Now, as an adult, I realize it's because he wouldn't take no for an answer. It's just a continuation of the trope that girls/women play coy, but if boys/men persist even through the NO, the boys/men will get what they want--sex--because that's really what the girls/women want, but can't admit it. This is so engrained in culture that it's almost impossible to overcome.

Huh, were we supposed to like him? I remember him as a villain who was extra villainy in that he usually 'won'. Then again, at the time, villains never won in these cartoons, so I guess his victory was supposed to indicate that he was the good guy all along. eww.