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Israel

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Reality Check
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Re: Israel

#26

Post by Reality Check »

Patagoniagirl wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 9:01 pm :snippity:
Ya mean like wagging the dog?
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Re: Israel

#27

Post by Atticus Finch »

It is too bad that Israel's Netanyahu doesn't have the leadership and visionary qualities of former president of South Africa, Frederick W. De Klerk, who was the last president of apartheid South Africa. It is also too bad there isn't a Nelson Mandela among the displaced and dispirited Palestinians.

De Klerk dismantled decades old apartheid system in South Africa by peaceful means and created universal suffrage so that black South Africans can vote in national elections for the first time and thereby making Mandela as South Africa's first black president.

If a nation like South Africa can achieve by peaceful means to incorporate a minority white population with a majority black population, then Israel can achieve the same results with its Jewish and Palestinians population if only Netanyahu can take the extraordinary steps of De Klerk but then again Netanyahu is no De Klerk.

"The question that we must ask is whether we are making progress toward the goal of universal peace. Or are we caught up on a treadmill of history, turning forever on the axle of mindless aggression and self-destruction?" F.W. de Klerk
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Re: Israel

#28

Post by Dr. Caligari »

neonzx wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:36 pm 1948, without consent of the Palestinians -- the USA backed that.

That's where we fucked ourselves. To turn a crude phrase, "we stuck our d**k where it did not belong." And we pay for it and we keep paying for it.
The United Nations voted in 1947 to partition British Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state. The Jews accepted the U.N. resolution; the Palestinians did not take that opportunity for an independent state. The surrounding Arab countries --Egypt, Syria, Jordan (then Transjordan), Lebanon-- rejected not only the existence of Israel but also of Palestine, and claimed the territory for themselves, leading to the 1948 war (in which Israel ultimately kept more-or-less the territory the U.N. had allocated to it, and Egypt, Syria and Jordan seized the land that was supposed to have been Palestine). Both the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. gave diplomatic recognition to Israel, pursuant to the U.N. resolution.
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Re: Israel

#29

Post by neonzx »

Dr. Caligari wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 12:54 pm
neonzx wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 11:36 pm 1948, without consent of the Palestinians -- the USA backed that.

That's where we fucked ourselves. To turn a crude phrase, "we stuck our d**k where it did not belong." And we pay for it and we keep paying for it.
The United Nations voted in 1947 to partition British Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state. The Jews accepted the U.N. resolution; the Palestinians did not take that opportunity for an independent state. The surrounding Arab countries --Egypt, Syria, Jordan (then Transjordan), Lebanon-- rejected not only the existence of Israel but also of Palestine, and claimed the territory for themselves, leading to the 1948 war (in which Israel ultimately kept more-or-less the territory the U.N. had allocated to it, and Egypt, Syria and Jordan seized the land that was supposed to have been Palestine). Both the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. gave diplomatic recognition to Israel, pursuant to the U.N. resolution.
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Re: Israel

#30

Post by neeneko »

Dr. Caligari wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 12:54 pm
The United Nations voted in 1947 to partition British Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state. The Jews accepted the U.N. resolution; the Palestinians did not take that opportunity for an independent state.
I am not sure 'accepted' is the right word here. Negotiation between the UN, settlers, the local population, and neighboring states were ongoing, but when the settlers had a draft they liked, they decided to take it. The settlers were predominantly American and Eastern European (so Russian and adjacent) so yes, both the US and Russia supported their claim.

Negotiations were a mess to say the least, since there were overlapping promises that meant someone was getting thrown under the bus.. it is hard to say if they would have ever resolved for what kind of agreement the various interested parties could have agreed on.

But by declaring independence before they were concluded that pretty much ruined any chance for peaceful resolution since it both showed that the newly formed nation was not a faithful negotiator and escalated an already tense situation... it also backed the US and USSR into a corner where they also demonstrated they were not faithful negotiator or moderators and thus, like the colonial powers that created the mess, could not be trusted.
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Re: Israel

#31

Post by Slim Cognito »

I was in the car listening to Andrea Mitchell and heard a snippet of what I think was her saying Netanyahu's popularity is skyrocketing after getting this close to being tossed out on his ass. Did I hear that right?
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Re: Israel

#32

Post by neeneko »

Slim Cognito wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:37 pm I was in the car listening to Andrea Mitchell and heard a snippet of what I think was her saying Netanyahu's popularity is skyrocketing after getting this close to being tossed out on his ass. Did I hear that right?
Yep, sounds about right. Netanyahu's power has always been dependent on things not getting better, the worse things get the more popular he becomes.
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Re: Israel

#33

Post by Dr. Caligari »

The settlers were predominantly American and Eastern European (so Russian and adjacent) so yes, both the US and Russia supported their claim.
There were virtually no American settlers in Israel in 1948, and not that many from the U.S.S.R. The Jewish population largely consisted of refugees from the Nazis, soon followed by Jews who were expelled from Arab countries.
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Re: Israel

#34

Post by Patagoniagirl »

Maybe the big difference with South Africa also has to do with the issues not being religion but race?
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Re: Israel

#35

Post by neonzx »

Patagoniagirl wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 3:06 pm Maybe the big difference with South Africa also has to do with the issues not being religion but race?
It's definitely part race. But, I don't get it -- they used to tell us "Never Forget" as as badge. Now, they exterminate people. I guess they never learned from their own history...?
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Re: Israel

#36

Post by Lani »

Well That Didn’t Take Long! Israeli Police Conduct a Raid at al Aqsa Mosque – AGAIN – On Prayer Day (AGAIN!)
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2021/05/2 ... ation=true

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/21/middleea ... index.html
Jerusalem (CNN) Israeli security forces used stun grenades and rubber bullets against Palestinians outside the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, where thousands of worshipers had been attending Friday prayers, puncturing a half-day of calm brought on by a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.

A CNN journalist at the mosque compound said dozens of Israeli officers hit journalists with batons and tried to point rifles at them, calling them “liars” when they showed them their press cards.

The officers moved on to the compound as thousands of worshipers chanted in solidarity with Gaza and with Palestinian residents of the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah, where some Palestinian families are facing eviction.

An Israeli police spokesperson said the officers were responding to a riot by hundreds of young Palestinians that included the throwing of stones at police forces.
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Re: Israel

#37

Post by Estiveo »

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Re: Israel

#38

Post by neonzx »

GOOD! When somebody is dropping bombs on people, someone has to stand up.
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Re: Israel

#39

Post by Uninformed »

“Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin”:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassina ... zhak_Rabin

“The assassin, an Israeli ultranationalist named Yigal Amir, radically opposed Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin's peace initiative, particularly the signing of the Oslo Accords.”
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Re: Israel

#40

Post by Dr. Caligari »

A very good discussion of what is happening in Israeli politics now:
Israel's new government
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Re: Israel

#41

Post by neeneko »

Dr. Caligari wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:24 pm A very good discussion of what is happening in Israeli politics now:
Israel's new government
Eep.

Well, it is certainly an opportunity.. unfortunately it could go either way real fast. With Netanyahu out of power, someone (maybe even Netanyahu again) is going to be in a good position to frame every problem that comes up as 'wasn't it better before?', and with such a divergent coalition no one is going to be able to make their own core happy, which is going to weaken them. They have a very narrow window to deliver something that makes enough people feel better. On the other hand, no one will have all that much unilateral power, which will mean nothing drastic can get done. Assuming there are no big events to respond to, indecision could mean stability, and people probably will like that, for a while at least.
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Re: Israel

#42

Post by tencats »

Israel’s Netanyahu pledges to destroy President Biden’s Iran, Settlements Policies if he Can Survive
Juan Cole 06/04/2021
Outgoing Israeli prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu lost his chance to form a government as the deadline ran out on Thursday, but he swung into action in an attempt to stop his rivals from forming one, either.

A successful prime minister would have to be able pass a confidence vote in the Israeli parliament or Knesset, requiring a simple majority of 61 yes votes in the 120-member body. Netanyahu’s rivals, the right wing extremist Naftali Bennett of the Yamina Party and the centrist Yair Lapid of the Yesh Atid (There is a Future) Party, have lined up exactly 61 votes.

The slimness of this majority, however, makes them vulnerable. Netanyahu called on right wing members of the coalition not to vote for it and instead to join him.

The Times of Israel reports that Netanyahu met Thursday with the main umbrella organization for Israeli squatters on Palestinian land in the West Bank. The squatters are clearly afraid that the new government will not be supportive of them in the way that Netanyahu has been, even though the proposed new prime minister, Bennett, is a former squatter himself. That is because Bennett will require the support of small left wing parties and of one Palestinian-Israeli party, to remain in power and so may not be able to do anything practical to support the settler movement.

It is a severe violation of the Geneva Conventions for an occupying power to send its own population in to settle on occupied territory. The 1949 Geneva Convention was formulated to forestall a repeat of the sort of thing Nazi Germany did in Poland, where it expelled Poles and brought in German squatters in hopes of Germanizing it and annexing it.

Netanyahu proposed a massive demonstration by the Haredim at the house of one of the right wing members of Bennett’s Yamina party, in hopes of intimidating him into withdrawing, leaving the new coalition with only 60 members.

Barak Ravid at Axios reports that Netanyahu is targeting Yamina member Nir Orbach in particular, and has manipulated Orbach’s rabbi into pressuring him to withdraw.

Read more at https://www.juancole.com/2021/06/netany ... ments.html
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Re: Israel

#43

Post by Volkonski »

“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.” ― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Re: Israel

#44

Post by Volkonski »

“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.” ― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Re: Israel

#45

Post by Patagoniagirl »

Fire. Frying pan. Hes a devotee of Netties policies. I'm glad Netti is out but this is like Louie Gohmert or Rick DeSantis succeeding.

F.
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Re: Israel

#46

Post by Suranis »

Whoever is the leader here will have to manage a Coalition of left right and center. And Netanyahu will be bomb throwing, and trying to tear it down all the time.

It's not a situation where they will be able to do much of anything.
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Re: Israel

#47

Post by northland10 »

Patagoniagirl wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:19 pm Fire. Frying pan. Hes a devotee of Netties policies. I'm glad Netti is out but this is like Louie Gohmert or Rick DeSantis succeeding.

F.
Except, in this case, it would be DeSantis having to rule with a cabinet and Congress majority that includes Cheney, Romney, and some centrist Democratic reps. The coalition even contains an Arab party member, IIRC.

It will be shaky at best and attempting to push anything forward will be tough. Now, depending on how he does it, Netti's bomb-throwing could strengthen the coalition. He did manage to bring together very different groups if only to get him out.
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Re: Israel

#48

Post by neeneko »

Suranis wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:49 pm It's not a setuation where they will be able to do much of anything.
It is also a situation that could get really unstable really fast. First real 'test of leadership' could either see ineffectiveness resulting in collapse, all the way through going full strongman.
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Re: Israel

#49

Post by Suranis »

Ya, that's what Netti will be trying to engender with his bomb throwing.
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Re: Israel

#50

Post by raison de arizona »

Not selling ice cream in occupied territories is ant-semitic?
Israel vows to ‘act aggressively’ against Ben & Jerry’s

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel’s prime minister vowed Tuesday to “act aggressively” against the decision by Ben & Jerry’s to stop selling its ice cream in Israeli-occupied territories, as the country’s ambassador to the U.S. urged dozens of state governors to punish the company under anti-boycott laws.

The strong reaction reflected concerns in Israel that the ice cream maker’s decision could lead other companies to follow suit. It also appeared to set the stage for a protracted public relations and legal battle.

Prime Minister Naftali Bennett’s office said he spoke with Alan Jope, chief executive of Ben & Jerry’s parent company Unilever, and raised concern about what he called a “clearly anti-Israel step.” He said the move would have “serious consequences, legal and otherwise,” [is IDF going to bomb them?] and Israel “will act aggressively against all boycott actions directed against its citizens.”

In Washington, State Department spokesman Ned Price declined to comment directly on the company’s decision. But he said the U.S. rejects the boycott movement against Israel, saying it “unfairly singles out” the country.

Israel’s Ambassador to the United Nations and the United States, Gilad Erdan, sent letters to 35 governors whose states have laws against boycotting Israel asking that they consider speaking out against Ben & Jerry’s decision “and taking any other relevant steps, including in relation to your state laws and the commercial dealings between Ben & Jerry’s and your state.”

Erdan said Israel views the company’s decision as “the de-facto adoption of anti-Semitic practices and advancement of the de-legitimization of the Jewish state and the dehumanization of the Jewish people.”
:snippity:
https://apnews.com/article/ben-jerrys-i ... 95a593c391
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