Afghanistan
Afghanistan
Did a search on the cost of the war and found this Forbes article with this graph, for your debunking pleasure.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccar ... 3885511971
https://specials-images.forbesimg.com/i ... ?fit=scale <-direct link
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccar ... 3885511971
https://specials-images.forbesimg.com/i ... ?fit=scale <-direct link
Hic sunt dracones
- Foggy
- Dick Tater
- Posts: 9554
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:45 am
- Location: Fogbow HQ
- Occupation: Dick Tater/Space Cadet
- Verified: as seen on qvc zombie apocalypse
Re: Afghanistan
Umm ... yeah. We invaded in 2003, but that and 2004 are the years we spent the least money?
![Nope :nope:](./images/smilies/eusa_snooty.gif)
![I'm Thinking :think:](./images/smilies/think.gif)
![Nope :nope:](./images/smilies/eusa_snooty.gif)
Out from under.
![Thumbs Up :thumbsup:](./images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Re: Afghanistan
Invasions are cheap. Holding territory is expensive.
Heh, I can remember in my lab we were going over one of the estimates planners presented the pentagon early in the war, saying that to do the job right it would take dedicated effort/planning/investment, 30 years, and some huge number of dollars. Looks like the last two are almost in sight, but I suspect they have not been doing the first part and instead have just been treading water.
- RTH10260
- Posts: 14356
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:16 am
- Location: Switzerland, near the Alps
- Verified: ✔️ Eurobot
Re: Afghanistan
full article at https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/27/worl ... liban.htmlNYTdirect newsletter wrote: A wave of Afghan military surrenders to the Taliban is picking up speed in rural areas as American troops withdraw.
Thursday, May 27, 2021 10:55 AM EST
Since May 1, at least 26 outposts and bases in just four provinces in Afghanistan have surrendered, according to village elders and government officials. With morale diving as American troops leave, and the Taliban seizing on each surrender as a propaganda victory, each collapse feeds the next.
-
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:59 am
Re: Afghanistan
Saigon April 1975 repeat. This time no helicopters picking up people from rooftops.
You don't need religion to have morals. If you can't determine right from wrong then you lack empathy, not religion.
-
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Mon May 24, 2021 3:02 am
- Location: North of Fenway Park
Re: Afghanistan
Afghan National Defense Security Forces (ANDSF) have suffered a staggering 74,000 casualties in dead and wounded in the last 24 months, according to this AP article. Those are unsustainable numbers.
https://apnews.com/article/europe-busin ... 4414914156
https://apnews.com/article/europe-busin ... 4414914156
Acting Ambassador to Red Sox Nation
- Phoenix520
- Posts: 4149
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:20 pm
- Verified: ✅
Re: Afghanistan
Did no one in authority watch Charlie Wilson’s War before they decided to go into Afghanistan?
I did. I could have told them it was worse than pointless but they never asked.
My step-sister, who I am going to see next week in Grass Pants, OR, (yay!) was getting a bit wild in her mid teens, before she was my step-sister. Their good family friends were in Afghanistan with the Peace Corps and they invited her to live with them for a year. She did. It showed her how privileged she was, taught her a valuable lesson. She loves the afghani people she met, gentle and good folk, and is sad every day, still, about their troubles. She coulda told them, too, but they never asked her either.
I did. I could have told them it was worse than pointless but they never asked.
My step-sister, who I am going to see next week in Grass Pants, OR, (yay!) was getting a bit wild in her mid teens, before she was my step-sister. Their good family friends were in Afghanistan with the Peace Corps and they invited her to live with them for a year. She did. It showed her how privileged she was, taught her a valuable lesson. She loves the afghani people she met, gentle and good folk, and is sad every day, still, about their troubles. She coulda told them, too, but they never asked her either.
Re: Afghanistan
Plenty of advisors, both internal and external, warned of the problems. Unfortunately one of the big problems is American democracy, and not much the military or state department could do about that.
- RTH10260
- Posts: 14356
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:16 am
- Location: Switzerland, near the Alps
- Verified: ✔️ Eurobot
Re: Afghanistan
The last 'copter out of Saigon is read for boarding...
U.S. to Move Afghans Who Aided Troops to Third Countries
The move is meant to place interpreters and others who worked with departing American forces somewhere safe until visas for them to enter the United States are processed.
By Helene Cooper and Eric Schmitt
June 24, 2021, 5:00 a.m. ET
WASHINGTON — The Biden administration is preparing to relocate thousands of Afghan interpreters, drivers and others who worked with American forces to other countries in an effort to keep them safe while they apply for entry to the United States, senior administration officials said.
With the American military in the final phases of withdrawing from Afghanistan after 20 years of war, the White House has come under heavy pressure from lawmakers and military officials to protect Afghan allies from revenge attacks by the Taliban and speed up the lengthy and complex process of providing them special immigrant visas.
On Wednesday, administration officials started notifying lawmakers that they will soon begin what could be a wholesale move of tens of thousands of Afghans. Officials said the Afghans would be moved out of Afghanistan to third countries to await the processing of their visa requests to move to the United States.
The officials declined to say where the Afghans would wait, and it is not clear whether third countries have agreed to take them. The opportunity to move will be given to people who have already begun the application process.
More than 18,000 Afghans who have worked as interpreters, drivers, engineers, security guards, fixers and embassy clerks for the United States during the war have been trapped in bureaucratic limbo after applying for special immigrant visas, available to people who face threats because of work for the U.S. government.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/24/us/p ... visas.html
- RTH10260
- Posts: 14356
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:16 am
- Location: Switzerland, near the Alps
- Verified: ✔️ Eurobot
Re: Afghanistan
U.S. Leaves Its Last Afghan Base, Effectively Ending Operations
With little fanfare, Bagram Air Base — once the military’s nerve center — was handed over to the Afghans, after nearly 20 years of waging war from the hub.
By Thomas Gibbons-Neff
July 2, 2021
Updated 8:15 a.m. ET
KABUL, Afghanistan — American troops and their Western allies have departed Bagram, Afghanistan’s largest air base, officials said on Friday, turning over to the Afghan government the sprawling outpost from which the United States waged war for nearly two decades.
With little fanfare and no public ceremony, American troops left the base on Thursday night, U.S. and Afghan officials said. The closure effectively means that major U.S. military operations in Afghanistan are all but over.
The Afghan military “will protect the base and use it to combat terrorism,” said Fawad Aman, a spokesman for Afghanistan’s Ministry of Defense.
The closure of Bagram, a symbol of the United States’ costly operations in Afghanistan, comes weeks before the planned withdrawal of American troops, who entered the country after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
The United States will leave a contingent of 650 troops to protect its embassy in Kabul, the capital.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/02/worl ... rawal.html
-
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:59 am
Re: Afghanistan
I wager that Kabul will fall by September 30th.
You don't need religion to have morals. If you can't determine right from wrong then you lack empathy, not religion.
Re: Afghanistan
Well, first the Russians invaded Afghanistan because of terrorists attacking Russia and failed...
Then the US invades Afghanistan because of terrorist attacks in our country carried out by groups in Afghanistan and failed...
The Chinese may want to watch out.
-
- Posts: 2133
- Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:26 pm
Re: Afghanistan
So, the assault will take 19 days or less, then?
Re: Afghanistan
I guess it will depend on how firmly the Taliban government can consolidate power and be the single point of negotiation. If they are strong, China will likely have a golden opportunity to be their new best friend and bring lots of money into the country. If not, that money is going to be contentious and the chinese workers are going to be targets for people who want their own chance at running things.
-
- Posts: 2095
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:13 pm
- Location: England
Re: Afghanistan
It’s not unreasonable to say that the only thing that brings the various factions/tribes in Afghanistan together is a common/foreign enemy. Once the Taliban have eliminated (most of) the current government and it’s organisations it is only a matter of time before the infighting escalates and the (re)establishment of divisions of the country. As ever, the ordinary people will be the ones to suffer the consequences.
If you can't lie to yourself, who can you lie to?
- HST's Ghost
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:00 am
Re: Afghanistan
OTAtticus Finch wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 12:43 pm Saigon April 1975 repeat. This time no helicopters picking up people from rooftops.
► Show Spoiler
"The dumber than dirt American we screwed to to floor"
- RTH10260
- Posts: 14356
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:16 am
- Location: Switzerland, near the Alps
- Verified: ✔️ Eurobot
Re: Afghanistan
![Like :like:](./images/smilies/like.gif)
From the skyline I take it that communism is thriving in Saigon...
- zekeb
- Posts: 664
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:12 pm
- Location: Strawberry Hill
- Occupation: Stable genius. One who tosses horseshit with a pitchfork and never misses the spreader.
Re: Afghanistan
Taliban? The other guy said the Taliban was no more. I believe that was reported on Faux News too.Uninformed wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:50 pm It’s not unreasonable to say that the only thing that brings the various factions/tribes in Afghanistan together is a common/foreign enemy. Once the Taliban have eliminated (most of) the current government and it’s organisations it is only a matter of time before the infighting escalates and the (re)establishment of divisions of the country. As ever, the ordinary people will be the ones to suffer the consequences.
Il factotum
- Foggy
- Dick Tater
- Posts: 9554
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:45 am
- Location: Fogbow HQ
- Occupation: Dick Tater/Space Cadet
- Verified: as seen on qvc zombie apocalypse
Re: Afghanistan
Well, it is actually a pretty complicated question, though fox is wrong in most important ways. Thing is, while there is an organization called the Taliban, it is unclear how much of it is old leadership vs new leadership. If it is mostly old leadership they can probably get their old coalition back together and rule with a level of stability. If it is mostly new leadership, not only are regional leaders going to wonder if they can make a bid of their own, but all that civil administration experience is wiped out... which leads to instability. On the gripping hand, one of the reasons the Taliban has grown so much again is it appears to still be doing administrative tasks and providing services across the country, so they might still have a lot of that bureaucracy still in place.
- RTH10260
- Posts: 14356
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:16 am
- Location: Switzerland, near the Alps
- Verified: ✔️ Eurobot
Re: Afghanistan
I have this hunch that the Afghan bureaucracy only works as long as they get paid, either by the government or by bribes. When the government collapses the bureaucrat structure collapses with it.
-
- Posts: 2095
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:13 pm
- Location: England
Re: Afghanistan
I tend to believe that “the Taliban” although undoubtedly a “movement” with some strict adherents is in reality mainly comprised of disparate factions (“warlords”) who are happy to cooperate under a “banner” when it benefits them. Whatever happens in Afghanistan it can be presumed that other countries will steer clear of intervening - raids / air or drone attacks would likely be met with a resumption of terrorist retaliation. What to do about the opium problem? No idea.
If you can't lie to yourself, who can you lie to?
Re: Afghanistan
I was horrified when Bush II decided to attack Afghanistan. The USSR failed, but it's not true that Afghanistan is the "graveyard of empires." Failures occurred when the invaders sought to force changes in the culture, which is what the US (and others) did.
1. Persian Empire from 539 until 331 BC. Persian is still one of the two most widely spoken languages in Afghanistan.
2. Alexander the Great from 330 until 327 BC. After conquering, he married his first wife, Roxanne, the daughter of the Afghan warlord. His firstborn son was heir to his empire, and he made the Afghans full partners. He did not force Greek customs and values (like democracy). He adopted the customs of the Afghans and the Persians. Afghanistan was part of a Macedonian-Greek-Afghan kingdom until 150 BC
3. The Brits did ok. Their efforts to subject Afghanistan ended in a terrible defeat. Britain then decided to support a strong king of the Afghans and bribed him to support British foreign policy. That worked well until 1947.
4. There were other assaults such as the Mongols, that weren't lasting.
Afghanistan is a crossroad nation, so it has a long history of assaults.
1. Persian Empire from 539 until 331 BC. Persian is still one of the two most widely spoken languages in Afghanistan.
2. Alexander the Great from 330 until 327 BC. After conquering, he married his first wife, Roxanne, the daughter of the Afghan warlord. His firstborn son was heir to his empire, and he made the Afghans full partners. He did not force Greek customs and values (like democracy). He adopted the customs of the Afghans and the Persians. Afghanistan was part of a Macedonian-Greek-Afghan kingdom until 150 BC
3. The Brits did ok. Their efforts to subject Afghanistan ended in a terrible defeat. Britain then decided to support a strong king of the Afghans and bribed him to support British foreign policy. That worked well until 1947.
4. There were other assaults such as the Mongols, that weren't lasting.
Afghanistan is a crossroad nation, so it has a long history of assaults.
![Image](https://thefogbow.com/forum/images/awards/meetup.gif)
- zekeb
- Posts: 664
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:12 pm
- Location: Strawberry Hill
- Occupation: Stable genius. One who tosses horseshit with a pitchfork and never misses the spreader.
Re: Afghanistan
The U.S. wouldn't do that, would we? If we did, we'd have learned a lesson and we wouldn't do it again. Yes/no?
![Black Eye :blackeye:](./images/smilies/blackeye.gif)
Il factotum
Re: Afghanistan
When we leave Afghanistan, it's going to break our hearts. It was always going to be horrible. We could have taken limited actions to locate Osama bin Laden instead of pushing for US culture and moving on to Pakistan.
![Image](https://thefogbow.com/forum/images/awards/meetup.gif)