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Afghanistan

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RTH10260
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Re: Afghanistan

#26

Post by RTH10260 »

Lani wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:18 am I was horrified when Bush II decided to attack Afghanistan. The USSR failed, but it's not true that Afghanistan is the "graveyard of empires." Failures occurred when the invaders sought to force changes in the culture, which is what the US (and others) did.
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Afghanistan is a crossroad nation, so it has a long history of assaults.
Personally I was not shocked, the initial stroke on Kabul in an attempt to get the hands on OBL was to be expected after the then Afghan government did not cooperate. The action was partly backed (with a stretch) by international law. The "horrified" part came when GWB et.al. decided the need to "bring democracy" to the country.

Of course they ignored the social tribal structure that has some basic democratic elements ingrained, the tribal head is elected by the tribe and is not a guranteed position, he can get replaced is he messes with the community. And the country government was democratically controlled by the Loya jirga, the parliament of the tribal leaders.
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Re: Afghanistan

#27

Post by Uninformed »

“Afghanistan: All foreign troops must leave by deadline - Taliban”:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57714808

“Any foreign troops left in Afghanistan after Nato's September withdrawal deadline will be at risk as occupiers, the Taliban has told the BBC.
It comes amid reports that 1,000 mainly US troops could remain on the ground to protect diplomatic missions and Kabul's international airport.”

Includes a short summary of events since 9/11.
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RTH10260
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Re: Afghanistan

#28

Post by RTH10260 »

Taliban close in on Helmand capital as UK Afghan mission ends
Lashkar Gah still under control of government forces but local activist says city is under siege

Emma Graham-Harrison in Kabul
Thu 8 Jul 2021 17.51 BST

As Boris Johnson announced the end of Britain’s military mission in Afghanistan, Taliban fighters pressed in on the capital of Helmand province, once the centre of the UK’s presence there.

Militants are less than a mile from Lashkar Gah, now also home to tens of thousands of people who have fled the fighting or Taliban rule across the rest of the province, local officials said.

“There is no security in Lashkar Gah, the situation is quite dangerous,” Majid Akhundzada, a member of the Helmand provincial council, told the Guardian. “All the districts have either fallen or the fight is ongoing. The government is in a weak, defensive position.”

Helmand has 14 districts, and only Lashkar Gah is still largely under control of government forces. Troops loyal to Kabul also hold the centres of four districts, Kajaki, Nad Ali, Marjah and Garmsir, and have isolated army bases in some areas including Sangin, but these have to be supplied by air transport.

Soldiers are trapped in these outposts, with the dead and wounded being transported too late, if at all, according to locals.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... ssion-ends
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Re: Afghanistan

#29

Post by AndyinPA »

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-w-b ... n-mistake/
George W. Bush calls withdrawal of U.S. and other NATO troops from Afghanistan "a mistake"

Updated on: July 14, 2021 / 7:34 AM / CBS/AFP

Former President George W. Bush on Wednesday criticized the withdrawal of NATO troops from Afghanistan and said civilians were being left to be "slaughtered" by the Taliban.

"I think the consequences are going to be unbelievably bad," he told German broadcaster Deutsche Welle.

"Afghan women and girls are going to suffer unspeakable harm. This is a mistake. ... They're just going to be left behind to be slaughtered by these very brutal people, and it breaks my heart," Mr. Bush said.
He may be right, but his hands are hardly clean. :mad:
"Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a coward is to be controlled by all that the coward fears… To be led by a liar is to ask to be told lies." -Octavia E. Butler
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Re: Afghanistan

#30

Post by Suranis »

He's also full of shit. He dropped Afghanistan to run after Iraq less than a day after walking into Kabul, and regarded it as a distraction after that. He burned any chance to fix the country.
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Re: Afghanistan

#31

Post by MN-Skeptic »

I hate what's going on in Afghanistan right now, but the U.S. should never gotten into that country in the first place. Unfortunately, it's time for Afghanistan to solve its own problems. We cannot fix their country.
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Re: Afghanistan

#32

Post by AndyinPA »

MN-Skeptic wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:37 pm I hate what's going on in Afghanistan right now, but the U.S. should never gotten into that country in the first place. Unfortunately, it's time for Afghanistan to solve its own problems. We cannot fix their country.
If they can't fix it themselves, no one can fix it.
"Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a coward is to be controlled by all that the coward fears… To be led by a liar is to ask to be told lies." -Octavia E. Butler
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Re: Afghanistan

#33

Post by neeneko »

MN-Skeptic wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:37 pm I hate what's going on in Afghanistan right now, but the U.S. should never gotten into that country in the first place. Unfortunately, it's time for Afghanistan to solve its own problems. We cannot fix their country.
The problem with a place like Afghanistan is that if one country moves out, it does not leave them to fix their own problems, it just leaves them to be puppeted by someone else.
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Re: Afghanistan

#34

Post by Uninformed »

“Mapping the advance of the Taliban in Afghanistan”:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57933979
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Re: Afghanistan

#35

Post by neeneko »

Uninformed wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:18 pm “Mapping the advance of the Taliban in Afghanistan”:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57933979
So I wonder if, when the Taliban (let us call them what they are : the Afghan government) takes back control, will the US impose crippling sanctions for toppling the government they put in place?
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Re: Afghanistan

#36

Post by raison de arizona »

tfg weighs in, apparently he had it all worked out.
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Re: Afghanistan

#37

Post by AndyinPA »

I call bullshit on the high lighted part of that. Actually, make that all of it.
"Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a coward is to be controlled by all that the coward fears… To be led by a liar is to ask to be told lies." -Octavia E. Butler
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Re: Afghanistan

#38

Post by neeneko »

AndyinPA wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:55 pm I call bullshit on the high lighted part of that. Actually, make that all of it.
Yep, but as usual, does not matter if it is true. It fits the "people respect strong trump and do not respect weak biden, so they would never have behaved this way if he was in charge!". Again, this is an example of why I suspect the GoP did not believe trump would win a second term.. there were too many time bombs that were set to go off in the next administration. the afghan withdraw was always going to get messy, but this way trump can claim a fantasy version of how he would have handled it while biden has to deal with the reality.
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Re: Afghanistan

#39

Post by RTH10260 »

Today in history - 50 years ago (or near enough) - Saigon 2011
The Taliban close in on Kabul, the last government stronghold.

The Taliban’s relentless, rapid advance across Afghanistan brought them on Sunday to the outskirts of the capital, Kabul, the last major city controlled by the government.

The news that the Taliban were encroaching on the capital was certain to alarm thousands of Afghans who had sought refuge there after fleeing the insurgents’ brutal military offensive.

The Taliban, in a statement, said that they were in negotiations with the government and would not take the capital by force. “The Islamic Emirate instructs all its forces to stand at the gates of Kabul, not to try to enter the city,” a spokesman said, using the name by which the insurgents refer to themselves.

The Afghan government had no immediate public response.

The United States military has begun evacuating American diplomatic and civilian staff. A core group of American diplomats who had planned to remain at the embassy in Kabul were being moved to a diplomatic facility at the international airport, where they would stay for an unspecified amount of time, according to a senior United States official.

Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken was expected to speak about the situation later Sunday.



https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/08/15 ... istan-news
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Re: Afghanistan

#40

Post by Atticus Finch »

Atticus Finch wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:28 pm I wager that Kabul will fall by September 30th.
My prediction is wrong. By August 20th. This what happens when the front line troops aren't fed or paid or reinforced. Russia army 1917
You don't need religion to have morals. If you can't determine right from wrong then you lack empathy, not religion.
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Re: Afghanistan

#41

Post by Uninformed »

BBC: “Afghan President Ashraf Ghani has left the country bound for Tajikistan, reports say”
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Atticus Finch
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Re: Afghanistan

#42

Post by Atticus Finch »

Today.
You don't need religion to have morals. If you can't determine right from wrong then you lack empathy, not religion.
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Re: Afghanistan

#43

Post by zekeb »

We spent billions there and tied up our armed forces for twenty years to accomplish nothing. Not to mention the American lives lost and otherwise mangled. Deja vu, Vietnam. I saw this coming during the GHB administration.
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Re: Afghanistan

#44

Post by Uninformed »



Not at all cynical.
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Re: Afghanistan

#45

Post by AndyinPA »

Five years ago, ten years ago, fifteen years ago. This was the only way this would end.
"Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a coward is to be controlled by all that the coward fears… To be led by a liar is to ask to be told lies." -Octavia E. Butler
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Re: Afghanistan

#46

Post by filly »

zekeb wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:21 pm We spent billions. trillions there and tied up our armed forces for twenty years to accomplish nothing. Not to mention the American lives lost and otherwise mangled. Deja vu, Vietnam. I saw this coming during the GHB administration.
I've seen the trillions number offered up. Incredible that there is not a complete accounting for this!

That said, this is a disaster for the Biden Administration. I've read that there are about 4,000 people working at the American Embassy. It's been pretty clear that those folks were in danger for at least a week now. That things have come to today is just disastrous.

Maddow has been pounding the table for at least 6 weeks to get the Afghani translators out, but the Biden Administration was slow on the draw on that too.

A terrible blow to perceptions of Biden's judgment. To be clear, I am not saying we shouldn't have gotten out, but the execution of this has been horrible. An enforced error for which Biden will pay a significant price.
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Re: Afghanistan

#47

Post by RTH10260 »

filly wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:31 pm
zekeb wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:21 pm We spent billions. trillions there and tied up our armed forces for twenty years to accomplish nothing. Not to mention the American lives lost and otherwise mangled. Deja vu, Vietnam. I saw this coming during the GHB administration.
I've seen the trillions number offered up. Incredible that there is not a complete accounting for this!

That said, this is a disaster for the Biden Administration. I've read that there are about 4,000 people working at the American Embassy. It's been pretty clear that those folks were in danger for at least a week now. That things have come to today is just disastrous.

Maddow has been pounding the table for at least 6 weeks to get the Afghani translators out, but the Biden Administration was slow on the draw on that too.

A terrible blow to perceptions of Biden's judgment. To be clear, I am not saying we shouldn't have gotten out, but the execution of this has been horrible. An enforced error for which Biden will pay a significant price.
I can't blame Biden. He inherited the mess that former impotus produced. That guy was unable to negotiate some sort of treaty, just tucked his tail and run. With the promise to get US troops back home. He had never shown an understanding that the US troops (and allies) recruited local staff that are now at peril of losing their lifes. In an alternate reality the plan to retreat would have included the transfer of local staffers and their families (possibly even extended families). But that would have been against impotus' plan of locking the US to foreign nationals.

BTW I seem to remember that the existing legislation is not in favour of handing out green cards to foreign support staffers and their families.
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Re: Afghanistan

#48

Post by filly »

It's the Biden Administration that decided to try to leave a fully functional embassy in Kabul and now are trying to evacuate American workers with few troops on the ground to protect them. That one is on Biden.

As for the translators, Guam agreed to take them in while the bureaucracy completed the vetting process, but the Biden Administration declined that offer. And now we are at today.
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Re: Afghanistan

#49

Post by Uninformed »

“The Speaker of the House of Commons granted a request from the Government to recall the House of Commons at 9.30am on Wednesday 18 August in relation to the situation in Afghanistan.”

To be fair, as far as I know nobody predicted such a rapid collapse, but by Wednesday what will be worthy of debate let alone action? Should be some good blathering and blame-shedding though.
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Re: Afghanistan

#50

Post by p0rtia »

AndyinPA wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:56 pm Five years ago, ten years ago, fifteen years ago. This was the only way this would end.
:yeahthat:
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