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The Big Lie

Abandon reality, all ye who enter here. *Democracy*Under*Threat*
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AndyinPA
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The Big Lie

#1

Post by AndyinPA »

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/22/politics ... index.html
CNN)Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas on Monday claimed election fraud is a threat to America, revealing in a forceful dissent some support for former President Donald Trump and Republicans who have refused to accept the result of the 2020 election.

A longtime conservative, Thomas' legal views naturally aligned with the Trump administration. But his dissent stands out for how much it subscribed to the Trump worldview of fraud, a notion debunked by election law experts and that has failed overwhelmingly in dozens of state and federal court challenges.

"We are fortunate that many of the cases we have seen alleged only improper rule changes, not fraud. But that observation provides only small comfort," Thomas said, dissenting as the court rejected a long-pending challenge to Pennsylvania mail-in voting procedures.

"An election free from strong evidence of systemic fraud is not alone sufficient for election confidence," Thomas wrote.
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p0rtia
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Re: The Big Lie, Voter Fraud

#2

Post by p0rtia »

AndyinPA wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:12 pm https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/22/politics ... index.html
CNN)Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas on Monday claimed election fraud is a threat to America, revealing in a forceful dissent some support for former President Donald Trump and Republicans who have refused to accept the result of the 2020 election.

Thanks for the thread, Andy! :heart: But I'm wondering about the title? The issue of voter fraud is not really The Big Lie, which is the former guy & cos attempt to steal the 2020 election and stage a coup. Sort of quite specific! I'm thinking It's more a claim of election fraud -- rather than actual election fraud. So I think Voter Fraud should go. I'm actually thinking The Big LIe is a topic unto itself, and doesn't need anything more.
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Re: The Big Lie, Voter Fraud

#3

Post by realist »

He also spouted this nonsense in his dissents...

Lawyers Compare Justice Thomas’ Dissent on Pa. Election Cases to Rumsfeld’s ‘The Absence of Evidence Is Not the Evidence of Absence’


U.S. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas was not happy that his colleagues on the high court chose to pass up the opportunity to weigh in on a slew of cases stemming from last year’s presidential elections, penning a highly critical dissent. Attorneys, on the other hand, pointed out that the stalwart conservative appeared to adopt the “argument from ignorance” fallacy with regards to voter irregularities, suggesting that a lack of proof is not enough to show fraud did not occur.
:roll:

And he's a Supreme Court justice.

https://lawandcrime.com/supreme-court/l ... f-absence/
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Re: The Big Lie, Voter Fraud

#4

Post by filly »

realist wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:03 am He also spouted this nonsense in his dissents...

Lawyers Compare Justice Thomas’ Dissent on Pa. Election Cases to Rumsfeld’s ‘The Absence of Evidence Is Not the Evidence of Absence’


U.S. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas was not happy that his colleagues on the high court chose to pass up the opportunity to weigh in on a slew of cases stemming from last year’s presidential elections, penning a highly critical dissent. Attorneys, on the other hand, pointed out that the stalwart conservative appeared to adopt the “argument from ignorance” fallacy with regards to voter irregularities, suggesting that a lack of proof is not enough to show fraud did not occur.
:roll:

And he's a Supreme Court justice.

https://lawandcrime.com/supreme-court/l ... f-absence/
Yep, when John Danforth was on his "Josh Hawley was the Worst Mistake of My Life" media tour, I think he should've apologized for inflicting Clarence Thomas (and his evil wife) on the body politic.
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Re: The Big Lie, Voter Fraud

#5

Post by AndyinPA »

p0rtia wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:00 am
AndyinPA wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:12 pm https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/22/politics ... index.html
CNN)Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas on Monday claimed election fraud is a threat to America, revealing in a forceful dissent some support for former President Donald Trump and Republicans who have refused to accept the result of the 2020 election.

Thanks for the thread, Andy! :heart: But I'm wondering about the title? The issue of voter fraud is not really The Big Lie, which is the former guy & cos attempt to steal the 2020 election and stage a coup. Sort of quite specific! I'm thinking It's more a claim of election fraud -- rather than actual election fraud. So I think Voter Fraud should go. I'm actually thinking The Big LIe is a topic unto itself, and doesn't need anything more.
That's true. I'll make the change.
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Re: The Big Lie, Voter Fraud

#6

Post by Suranis »

AndyinPA wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:46 am That's true. I'll make the change.
You have to change the title on the first post, or it will still be the original title.
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Re: The Big Lie, Voter Fraud

#7

Post by Foggy »

 ! Message from: Foggy
Did that.
Out from under. :thumbsup:
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Re: The Big Lie, Voter Fraud

#8

Post by AndyinPA »

Foggy wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:49 pm
 ! Message from: Foggy
Did that.
Thanks. I know how to do it and did it a couple of times. I don't know why it didn't stick. :?:
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Re: The Big Lie

#9

Post by LM K »

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/scot ... ion-gambit

SCOTUS refuses to hear Trump v Wisconsin Elections Commission.

"The Supreme Court on Monday morning shot down ex-President Donald Trump’s legal team’s request to hear its lawsuit against the 2020 election results in Wisconsin, where Trump lost to now-President Joe Biden.

It was the final blow to Trump’s attempt to undo his defeat through flimsy lawsuits that consistently went down in flames."
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Re: The Big Lie, Voter Fraud

#10

Post by Atticus Finch »

realist wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:03 am He also spouted this nonsense in his dissents...

Lawyers Compare Justice Thomas’ Dissent on Pa. Election Cases to Rumsfeld’s ‘The Absence of Evidence Is Not the Evidence of Absence’


U.S. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas was not happy that his colleagues on the high court chose to pass up the opportunity to weigh in on a slew of cases stemming from last year’s presidential elections, penning a highly critical dissent. Attorneys, on the other hand, pointed out that the stalwart conservative appeared to adopt the “argument from ignorance” fallacy with regards to voter irregularities, suggesting that a lack of proof is not enough to show fraud did not occur.
:roll:

And he's a Supreme Court justice.

https://lawandcrime.com/supreme-court/l ... f-absence/
I always knew justice Thomas was an oxymoron.
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Re: The Big Lie, Voter Fraud

#11

Post by noblepa »

Atticus Finch wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:13 pm
realist wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:03 am He also spouted this nonsense in his dissents...

Lawyers Compare Justice Thomas’ Dissent on Pa. Election Cases to Rumsfeld’s ‘The Absence of Evidence Is Not the Evidence of Absence’


U.S. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas was not happy that his colleagues on the high court chose to pass up the opportunity to weigh in on a slew of cases stemming from last year’s presidential elections, penning a highly critical dissent. Attorneys, on the other hand, pointed out that the stalwart conservative appeared to adopt the “argument from ignorance” fallacy with regards to voter irregularities, suggesting that a lack of proof is not enough to show fraud did not occur.
:roll:

And he's a Supreme Court justice.

https://lawandcrime.com/supreme-court/l ... f-absence/
I always knew justice Thomas was an oxymoron.

The argument that "lack of proof is not enough to show fraud did not occur" is not wrong. But it is not a legal argument. Nor is it logical. The statement is inartfully worded. I would revise it to say "lack of proof of fraud is not proof that fraud did not occur". It is difficult to prove a negative.

In the law, the one making a claim about something, or making an accusation, has the burden of proving that the claim or accusation is true. We always (and IMHO, correctly) start from the premise that the accusation is false. It is then up to the accuser to provide evidence to prove their claim.

In the US legal system, judges and courts are not investigative bodies. Investigation and discovery of evidence is (and should be) done by the plaintiff and defendant, not the judge.

So, if a case somehow makes it to SCOTUS with no visible evidence, it is proper that the court decline to hear the case. If there is no evidence, there is nothing to hear. The only exception that this IANAL can think of is if one party or the other claims that there is, in fact, evidence, but a lower court erred in not allowing it to be introduced. However, in that case, the question becomes, not "is the claim true", but "did the lower court err". If SCOTUS found the latter, they would almost certainly do nothing more than remand the case back to the trial court for reconsideration.

For one thing, as I said, the court is not an investigator. This is especially true of the Supreme Court. While justices can and do ask questions during oral arguments, they are not asking witnesses. They are asking lawyers for the competing sides. SCOTUS does not usually address the merits of a case, only the relevant law and the procedures and decisions in the lower courts.

For another, were the court to agree to hear the case and hand down a ruling, only to have evidence actually turn up, the court is left with egg on its collective face. They are then faced with the difficult task of reversing their own decision.
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Re: The Big Lie

#12

Post by roadscholar »

Sure... and inductively, a lack of evidence of fraud when literally millions of people are intensely interested in finding said fraud, and after multiple professional, expert attempts to do so... that's an extremely reliable indication that it did not in fact occur.
The bitterest truth is more wholesome than the sweetest lie.
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Re: The Big Lie

#13

Post by LM K »

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/10/politics ... index.html

Wall Street Journal: Trump pressured Georgia investigator to find 'the right answer' in baseless fraud push

In a phone call to the Georgia secretary of state's office in December, then-President Donald Trump urged a top investigator to find fraud in the 2020 presidential election, telling her that she would be "praised" for overturning results that were in favor of Joe Biden, according to newly reported audio of the call obtained by The Wall Street Journal.

The report is the latest example of Trump's extraordinary efforts to influence Georgia election officials as they certified the results, even though there is no evidence of widespread fraud in the election. Trump's actions have drawn the attention of Georgia's Republican secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, as well as a Fulton County prosecutor who has launched a criminal investigation.

"When the right answer comes out, you'll be praised," Trump tells Frances Watson, the chief investigator at the Georgia secretary of state's office, in a six-minute conversation on December 23, according to the Journal.
WSJ has the recording ... behind a paywall.
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Re: The Big Lie

#14

Post by LM K »

"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
From "Take the Money and Run"
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Re: The Big Lie

#15

Post by sugar magnolia »

"Whatever you can do for us, Frances."
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Re: The Big Lie

#16

Post by tek »

Not on the tape: "Bless your heart, Mr. President"
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Re: The Big Lie

#17

Post by Flatpoint High »

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/14/politics ... index.html
CNN) — Officials in the Georgia Secretary of State's Office located a recently released recording of former President Donald Trump's call to a state investigator in a trash folder on her device, a state official familiar with the situation confirmed to CNN.

The discovery of the call comes after state officials originally told CNN that they did not think audio of the call existed. The call added to the examples of Trump's extraordinary efforts to push false claims of widespread voter fraud and influence Georgia election officials as they certified the state's election results.

The audio file of the December 23 call between the former President and investigator Frances Watson was discovered as the Georgia Secretary of State's Office responded to a public records request. The personal familiar spoke with CNN on the condition of anonymity to describe the internal process.
More at the link
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Re: The Big Lie

#18

Post by RTH10260 »

Texas AG Says Trump Would've 'Lost' State If It Hadn't Blocked Mail-in Ballots Applications Being Sent Out
BY JASON LEMON ON 6/5/21 AT 3:59 PM EDT

Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, a Republican, said former President Donald Trump would have lost in Texas in the 2020 election if his office had not successfully blocked counties from mailing out applications for mail-in ballots to all registered voters.


Harris County, home to the city of Houston, wanted to mail out applications for mail-in ballots to its approximately 2.4 million registered voters due to the COVID-19 pandemic. However, the conservative Texas Supreme Court blocked the county from doing so after it faced litigation from Paxton's office.

"If we'd lost Harris County—Trump won by 620,000 votes in Texas. Harris County mail-in ballots that they wanted to send out were 2.5 million, those were all illegal and we were able to stop every one of them," Paxton told former Trump adviser Steve Bannon during the latter's War Room podcast on Friday.

"Had we not done that, we would have been in the very same situation—we would've been on Election Day, I was watching on election night and I knew, when I saw what was happening in these other states, that that would've been Texas. We would've been in the same boat. We would've been one of those battleground states that they were counting votes in Harris County for three days and Donald Trump would've lost the election," the Republican official said.

Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, a Republican, said Friday that former President Donald Trump would have lost in the southwestern state if his office hadn't blocked counties from sending mail-in ballot applications to registered voters. In this photo, Paxton speaks during a panel discussion during the Conservative Political Action Conference held in the Hyatt Regency on February 27 in Orlando, Florida.

Notably, the Texas attorney general conflated mail-in ballots with applications for mail-in ballots in his remarks to Bannon. Harris County did not attempt to mail actual ballots to registered voters—just applications to request them if the individual voter wanted one.



https://www.newsweek.com/texas-ag-says- ... ng-1597909
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Re: The Big Lie

#19

Post by RVInit »

So, it's illegal in Texas for registered voters to...vote?
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Re: The Big Lie

#20

Post by Estiveo »

RVInit wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:40 pm So, it's illegal in Texas for registered voters to...vote?
Well, only if they're Democrats. Or Black. Or anyone else not loyal to the Great Orange Gasbag & His Elk.

Seriously, RV, what are ya, new?
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Re: The Big Lie

#21

Post by Frater I*I »

When your strategy to stay in power is to keep people from voting because they disagree with your platform....

You're not a Republican anymore....you're a Fascist. :mad:
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Re: The Big Lie

#22

Post by Chilidog »

Estiveo wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:44 pm
RVInit wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:40 pm So, it's illegal in Texas for registered voters to...vote?
Well, only if they're Democrats. Or Black. Or anyone else not loyal to the Great Orange Gasbag & His Elk.

Seriously, RV, what are ya, new?
Trump has an elk?

Where's my elk?

Why can't I have an elk?
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Re: The Big Lie

#23

Post by Estiveo »

We're all each other's Elk at the Fogbow.
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Re: The Big Lie

#24

Post by much ado »

I always liked Moose better, especially Chocolate Moose.
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Re: The Big Lie

#25

Post by noblepa »

Well, he probably does use mousse on his hair.

:bag:
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