Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve.

Post Reply

Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve?

Yes
9
69%
No
4
31%
 
Total votes: 13

DmitriNotPetra
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:28 pm

Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve.

#1

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:58 am

Rosenstein seems like a rather intelligent individual. He also seems to believe strongly in the Mueller investigation and the integrity of the DOJ. He has had to have known since the beginning that the moment he signed that letter he's had the Sword of Damocles hanging over his career. Do you think he has, what is known in corporate America, a "poison pill" that he will unleash when the day he is exited comes? Some letters or papers or memos stashed somewhere?

User avatar
Dan1100
Posts: 3460
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve.

#2

Post by Dan1100 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:12 am

Cross-posted: http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p1029593
John Dean's suggestion, not that Mueller needs the advice.

https://twitter.com/JohnWDean/status/10 ... 1247855616
John Dean Verified account @JohnWDean
3h3 hours ago

Special Prosecutor Mueller should subpoena Trump to testify before the Grand Jury TOMORROW, after getting DAG Rosenstein’s consent. Then if Trump fires Rosenstein if will be seen as retribution for that what it would be — an obstruction of justice!
151 replies 2,121 retweets 5,785 likes
Mueller more that Rosenstein I'd think. There is a part of me that thinks that Mueller has a stack of sealed indictments ready to go if Rosenstein gets canned.
"Devin Nunes is having a cow over this."

-George Takei

User avatar
Foggy
Posts: 28437
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: Fogbow HQ
Occupation: Dick Tater

Re: Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve.

#3

Post by Foggy » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:08 am

I'm fantasizing that when Twitler fires Rosenstein, Rod looks him in the eye and says, "That's OK, traitor. You sold out your country, and the punishment for treason is the death penalty. Have a nice day!"
Any time my questions are all fully answered, I know I'm asking the wrong questions. - Bernard Samson

User avatar
fierceredpanda
Posts: 1936
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:04 pm
Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left past the picture of King George III

Re: Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve.

#4

Post by fierceredpanda » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:59 am

Dan1100 wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:12 am
Cross-posted: http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p1029593
John Dean's suggestion, not that Mueller needs the advice.

https://twitter.com/JohnWDean/status/10 ... 1247855616
John Dean Verified account @JohnWDean
3h3 hours ago

Special Prosecutor Mueller should subpoena Trump to testify before the Grand Jury TOMORROW, after getting DAG Rosenstein’s consent. Then if Trump fires Rosenstein if will be seen as retribution for that what it would be — an obstruction of justice!
151 replies 2,121 retweets 5,785 likes
Mueller more that Rosenstein I'd think. There is a part of me that thinks that Mueller has a stack of sealed indictments ready to go if Rosenstein gets canned.
A stack of sealed indictments doesn't do a bit of good when Noel Francisco can walk into the office 5 seconds after Rosenstein goes, tell Mueller to close everything out, and provide notice to the court(s) where such indictments were obtained that the DOJ has reconsidered its position and is not proceeding at this time.

If you think that's unlikely, bear in mind that, in his capacity as US Solicitor General, Noel Francisco has obliterated the practice that the SG's office does not just instantly switch sides on issues before SCOTUS from one administration to the next. He's reversed the DOJ's side on something like a dozen major cases before the high court. He is an unprincipled Republican loyalist, and even if Rosenstein is outright fired (and therefore couldn't be replaced with any Senate-confirmed toady for 270 days under the Vacancies Reform Act), he is the next in line.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

User avatar
Foggy
Posts: 28437
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: Fogbow HQ
Occupation: Dick Tater

Re: Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve.

#5

Post by Foggy » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:07 am

I still suspect that all the evidence compiled by Mueller and his team goes home every night on multiple flash drives. All the evidence will be made public, somehow or other. :pray: :pray: :pray:
Any time my questions are all fully answered, I know I'm asking the wrong questions. - Bernard Samson

User avatar
Sugar Magnolia
Posts: 10343
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:44 am

Re: Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve.

#6

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:18 am

Foggy wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:07 am
I still suspect that all the evidence compiled by Mueller and his team goes home every night on multiple flash drives. All the evidence will be made public, somehow or other. :pray: :pray: :pray:
That's my fantasy too. Baskets full of flash drives all stamped and addressed, ready to go to hundreds of news outlets worldwide the minute they try to shut down the investigation. And Mueller standing in front of a bank of microphones at a press conference announcing he has some (painless) terminal disease so there is nothing they can do to him.

Bring it on, bitch!

User avatar
fierceredpanda
Posts: 1936
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:04 pm
Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left past the picture of King George III

Re: Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve.

#7

Post by fierceredpanda » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:55 am

Foggy wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:07 am
I still suspect that all the evidence compiled by Mueller and his team goes home every night on multiple flash drives. All the evidence will be made public, somehow or other. :pray: :pray: :pray:
Grand jury secrecy rules are going to be a problem there with regard to any evidence not disclosed in court filings.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

User avatar
p0rtia
Posts: 2500
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:44 am

Re: Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve.

#8

Post by p0rtia » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:13 am

I vote "I sure as hell hope so".

My confidence in Rosenstein's objectives took a hit with all of yesterday's news stories saying that he offered to resign/contemplated resigning. The nation says, "Excuse me?????"
No matter where you go, there you are! :towel:
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Maybenaut
Posts: 5578
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:58 am
Location: Maybelot

Re: Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve.

#9

Post by Maybenaut » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:48 am

fierceredpanda wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:55 am
Foggy wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:07 am
I still suspect that all the evidence compiled by Mueller and his team goes home every night on multiple flash drives. All the evidence will be made public, somehow or other. :pray: :pray: :pray:
Grand jury secrecy rules are going to be a problem there with regard to any evidence not disclosed in court filings.
How does that work? It’s a serious question; where I practice we have preliminary hearings, and the accused has the right to be present. So I don’t know how the secrecy works.

If the DOJ investigators come up with evidence, and then present that evidence to the grand jury, and the grand jury deliberates and either indicts or does not, does that mean that the DOJ investigation that was done before they ever presented anything to the grand jury is now covered under the grand jury secrecy rules?

I mean, the facts are the facts. I can see them not being able to say, “this is what we presented to the grand jury.” But what stops them from saying, “this is what we learned during the course of our investigation”?
"Hey! You know, we left this England place because it was bogus. So if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too." - Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
Chilidog
Posts: 9846
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve.

#10

Post by Chilidog » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:36 am

Foggy wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:07 am
I still suspect that all the evidence compiled by Mueller and his team goes home every night on multiple flash drives. All the evidence will be made public, somehow or other. :pray: :pray: :pray:
I could very eel see a "package" arriving at the New York Times.

User avatar
fierceredpanda
Posts: 1936
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:04 pm
Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left past the picture of King George III

Re: Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve.

#11

Post by fierceredpanda » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:48 am

Maybenaut wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:48 am
fierceredpanda wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:55 am
Foggy wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:07 am
I still suspect that all the evidence compiled by Mueller and his team goes home every night on multiple flash drives. All the evidence will be made public, somehow or other. :pray: :pray: :pray:
Grand jury secrecy rules are going to be a problem there with regard to any evidence not disclosed in court filings.
How does that work? It’s a serious question; where I practice we have preliminary hearings, and the accused has the right to be present. So I don’t know how the secrecy works.

If the DOJ investigators come up with evidence, and then present that evidence to the grand jury, and the grand jury deliberates and either indicts or does not, does that mean that the DOJ investigation that was done before they ever presented anything to the grand jury is now covered under the grand jury secrecy rules?

I mean, the facts are the facts. I can see them not being able to say, “this is what we presented to the grand jury.” But what stops them from saying, “this is what we learned during the course of our investigation”?
Rule 6(e) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure covers grand jury secrecy. With regard to Mueller's team, the applicable rule would be Rule 6(e)(2)(B)(vi), which mandates that attorneys for the government maintain secrecy. Rule 6(e)(3) covers the exceptions. There are a lot of them, but going to the press to blow the whistle is not one of them. To wit:
(A) Disclosure of a grand-jury matter—other than the grand jury's deliberations or any grand juror's vote—may be made to:

(i) an attorney for the government for use in performing that attorney's duty;

(ii) any government personnel—including those of a state, state subdivision, Indian tribe, or foreign government—that an attorney for the government considers necessary to assist in performing that attorney's duty to enforce federal criminal law;
Moreover, under 6(e)(3)(B), when a 6(e)(3)(A)(ii) disclosure is made, the person who made such disclosure is obligated to certify to the court that it was done properly.
(B) A person to whom information is disclosed under Rule 6(e)(3)(A)(ii) may use that information only to assist an attorney for the government in performing that attorney's duty to enforce federal criminal law. An attorney for the government must promptly provide the court that impaneled the grand jury with the names of all persons to whom a disclosure has been made, and must certify that the attorney has advised those persons of their obligation of secrecy under this rule.
Rule 6(e)(3)(C) permits disclosure from one grand jury to another. Rule 6(e)(3)(D) covers disclosure of foreign intelligence and information on imminent threats to national security to the relevant agencies, but not the press. Rule 6(e)(3)(E) and (F) provide means for the court to order disclosure or the parties to petition for such disclosure, but for specific legal purposes like showing procedural defects in the grand jury proceedings or passing information on to other law enforcement entities. Those rules do not contemplate releasing grand jury information to the media. This is why media reports about goings-on in grand jury investigations are cagey about sources, but generally the sources are witnesses or their attorneys, who are not bound by secrecy.

As to your question about what stops Mueller and Company from saying that information disclosed to the media is "from the investigation" and not "from the grand jury," I confess to have no idea where or how that line is drawn. However, I doubt someone like Bob Mueller would contemplate even coming close to that line.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

User avatar
fierceredpanda
Posts: 1936
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:04 pm
Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left past the picture of King George III

Re: Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve.

#12

Post by fierceredpanda » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:01 pm

Oh, and I forgot the very best part of the Rules of Criminal Procedure's current language on secrecy. The penalty available was intentionally left vague! From the Committee's Notes of the 2002 Amendment:
The Committee decided to leave in subdivision (e) the provision stating that a “knowing violation of Rule 6” may be punished by contempt notwithstanding that, due to its apparent application to the entirety of the Rule, the provision seemingly is misplaced in subdivision (e). Research shows that Congress added the provision in 1977 and that it was crafted solely to deal with violations of the secrecy prohibitions in subdivision (e). See S. Rep. No. 95–354, p. 8 (1977). Supporting this narrow construction, the Committee found no reported decision involving an application or attempted use of the contempt sanction to a violation other than of the disclosure restrictions in subdivision (e). On the other hand, the Supreme Court in dicta did indicate on one occasion its arguable understanding that the contempt sanction would be available also for a violation of Rule 6(d) relating to who may be present during the grand jury's deliberations. Bank of Nova Scotia v. United States, 487 U.S. 250, 263 (1988).

In sum, it appears that the scope of the contempt sanction in Rule 6 is unsettled. Because the provision creates an offense, altering its scope may be beyond the authority bestowed by the Rules Enabling Act, 28 U.S.C. §§2071 et seq. See 28 U.S.C. §2072(b) (Rules must not “abridge, enlarge, or modify any substantive right”). The Committee decided to leave the contempt provision in its present location in subdivision (e), because breaking it out into a separate subdivision could be construed to support the interpretation that the sanction may be applied to a knowing violation of any of the Rule's provisions rather than just those in subdivision (e). Whether or not that is a correct interpretation of the provision—a matter on which the Committee takes no position—must be determined by case law, or resolved by Congress.
So all it would take would be a Trump-allied prosecutor bringing a complaint before the right Trump-allied judge, and you could have criminal contempt cases against anyone on Mueller's team who leaked grand jury material to the press.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

User avatar
Maybenaut
Posts: 5578
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:58 am
Location: Maybelot

Re: Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve.

#13

Post by Maybenaut » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:38 pm

:bighug: Thanks, FRP! Very enlightening!
"Hey! You know, we left this England place because it was bogus. So if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too." - Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
fierceredpanda
Posts: 1936
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:04 pm
Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left past the picture of King George III

Re: Does Rosenstein have any tricks up his sleeve.

#14

Post by fierceredpanda » Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:09 pm

You are most welcome. I take that as high praise from someone who is usually educating me. :bighug:
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

Post Reply

Return to “The Trump Cabinet”