Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

Will Kavanaugh Make It Until Monday's Hearing?

Yes
47
69%
No, His decision
5
7%
No, Public pressure
9
13%
No, Congress torpedos
7
10%
 
Total votes: 68

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p0rtia
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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#151

Post by p0rtia »

I am no fan, so take this rather as a general position rather than one in support of Avenati.

For me, there is a difference between two people bickering on a public forum and being asked to, or deciding to take, their venom to private messages, and using the pm function of a public forum to throw vitriol at someone.

For me, the former implies both members have agreed to get a room and implies that what goes on in that room stays in that room--at least to the extent that if either then shares what was said, they can be fairly condemned for doing so.

But the latter is, for me, an attack on an individual that is trying to twist the conventions of a public forum to shield themselves, or to gain a position of advantage. Traditionally, abusive attacks take place in private to protect the attacker/abuser, and that is what this smacks of to me. The trap is for the recipient to abide by the conventions of privacy and remain silent.

For example, if any of the good souls on the Fogbow sent me such a PM out of the blue, thus revealing her/himself to be a total shithead in private, whilst maintaining a kind and caring and professional persona on the boards, I would out them instantly as a fraud. Where is "oh but that was private" a defense for abusive/attacking behavior? Who would tell me I shouldn't have revealed a PM? Or that I did so to destroy someone's reputation on the board?

Twitter is a public forum. There is no assumption of privacy, and certainly not when you use it to make a personal attack to stranger (public figure or not). I don't think Avenati's possible extra motives for revealing the PM need to come into it. I would have revealed it to. On principle.
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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#152

Post by Volkonski »

Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#153

Post by mmmirele »

If Kavanaugh's calendars are like the calendars the plaintiffs showed the jury I was on last October, it's going to be ridiculous. Plaintiffs' attorneys had to show their guys weren't contractors but hourly employees. But the calendars only showed the number of contracted jobs they did each day. That, and some other factors, caused us to decide against them.

I predict Kavanaugh's calendars will be like that, completely not on point at all.

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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#154

Post by Volkonski »

Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#155

Post by Sugar Magnolia »

Volkonski wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:45 pm
Good for him. The longer he holds on before he is dragged, kicking and screaming, from the process, the more upheaval the republicans can expect in the election.

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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#156

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#157

Post by Notorial Dissent »

Foogy, I agree with you about Avenetti, but everything he's said so far, once you get beyond the blister and bombast, has proven true. I had a feeling that if it held up that more victims would start to appear. The thing is, people like Kavanaugh DON'T CHANGE. If it was true then, the likelihood of change for someone like that is slim to none. Definitely :popcorn: time coming.

Edited spelling error from damn auto-correct.
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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#158

Post by Orlylicious »

Unsolicited Twitter DMs have no privacy unless there's PII.
When this applies
Some examples of private information include (but may not be limited to) private contact or financial information, such as:

credit card information
social security or other national identity numbers
private residences, personal home addresses, or other locations that are considered private
non-public, personal phone numbers
non-public, personal email addresses

Some examples of information that is not considered private include:

name
birthdate or age
business addresses
places of education or employment
descriptions of appearance
https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-p ... nformation

I have absolutely no problem highlighting Butch's filthy mouth when he's in charge of a school. If you say such nasty things, you should be called out for it. Until people understand that, they will keep up the horrible messages, death threats, threats of violence etc. I'm willing to bet that Butch talks like that a lot and he should be investigated, what if he's talking like that with the kids? So I respectfully disagree, I think Butch deserves everything he gets. Butch had the absolute right to say what he did, and we have the right to respond.
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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#159

Post by Mikedunford »

I dissent.

Destroying people over shit that's said in the heat of a political debate, at least when the content is not racist or threatening, is wrong. It's toxic to any civil society. Those who engage in it - no matter what side they claim to be on - are not on my side.
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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#160

Post by wavey davey »

Volkonski wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:45 pm
I fergit. Which stage of grief does this show him to be in?

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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#161

Post by Sugar Magnolia »

wavey davey wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:12 pm
Volkonski wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:45 pm
I fergit. Which stage of grief does this show him to be in?
Denial.

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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#162

Post by listeme »

I mean, if someone DMs me abusively, I have zero qualms about breaking that privacy expectation -- ESPECIALLY on twitter.

I get that Avenetti has a wide audience and that it changes the scope of breaking that expectation. But the headmaster (or whatever) of a school who knows enough about twitter to use the DM system and goes ahead and uses it abusively?

I operate under my own name, here (I've outed myself all over hte place on this board) and on twitter. I link to my facebook account from twitter. I know that if I were to DM, say, Kelly Ann Conway or Eric Trump and call them big doodyheads, I'm an idiot. I could have consequences.

Avenetti is an ass. I despise the way he does stuff. But I'm dissenting the other way :mrgreen: The guy DMing him using vulgar language? He's the guy in the wrong.

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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#163

Post by p0rtia »

Mikedunford wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:07 pm
I dissent.

Destroying people over shit that's said in the heat of a political debate, at least when the content is not racist or threatening, is wrong. It's toxic to any civil society. Those who engage in it - no matter what side they claim to be on - are not on my side.
How do you define "destroying"? And what do you think is the proper response to a private personal attack?
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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#164

Post by Mikedunford »

p0rtia wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:23 pm
Mikedunford wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:07 pm
I dissent.

Destroying people over shit that's said in the heat of a political debate, at least when the content is not racist or threatening, is wrong. It's toxic to any civil society. Those who engage in it - no matter what side they claim to be on - are not on my side.
How do you define "destroying"? And what do you think is the proper response to a private personal attack?
In this case, I'd define destroying as "trying to get the guy fired from his job." Avenatti highlighted the guy's place of employment - twice - in his public outing of the comments, and he did so not just by pulling the information that the guy worked at the school from his own Twitter feed, but also by including a photo of the school's Twitter page. He didn't openly encourage people to contact the school, but he did a hell of a lot to facilitate it. (The school's Twitter page now notes that they're "looking into" the incident that's caused them to receive negative attention on social media.)

And, absent special circumstances such as threats, I think the proper response to a private personal attack is private. Report the guy to Twitter and get his account suspended or yanked strikes me as an entirely reasonable response. Contacting his employer himself - given that the information was in the guys Twitter profile - would strike me as maybe a little harsh but definitely reasonable. Setting things up to get thousands of people to raise a stink that creates bad publicity for the guy's school, inevitably putting his employment in jeopardy, strikes me - still - as extremely disproportionate.
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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#165

Post by Clairez »

Actions have consequences. If you are going to attack someone online, you have to consider that they may attack back and the possible outcome of your own actions.

The blame for any negative outcome ultimately lies with the first attacker.

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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#166

Post by Mikedunford »

We weren't so quick to find justifications for things like people's employers getting pestered when it was birthers doing it to us.

But I'm done. Fuckit.
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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#167

Post by p0rtia »

Thanks, Mike. Most persuasive, especially the first part.

However, I am not confident that Twitter would respond with anything more than a slap on the wrist--the sort of punishment that encourages further abuse. Moreover, I'm a big fan of outing people who try to hide their abusive behavior. Why did he do a PM instead of a tweet? Who was it he wanted to hide his action from? They are the people I think should know what's going on.

So, you've convinced me that I don't think I'd put a picture of the school up, but I would most certainly out the man to Twitter, and would probably mention his job title in the proper way, set off by commas after his name. Sunlight being the best disinfectant and all that.
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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#168

Post by Orlylicious »

Until we show the consequences of hate speech it's going to continue getting worse. He's a school official. They are rightfully taking it seriously. If he was right doing it, why does he "deeply regret" it now?

ETA: Before sending his reply, Michael Avenatti said he reviewed Butch's instagram and Twitter and saw a pattern of inappropriate content for a guy who works with kids.
Arlington school suspends administrator after Twitter attack on Stormy Daniels' lawyer
Filed under Arlington at 35 min ago
Updated at 5:55 p.m.: Revised to reflect that Butch Groves has been suspended.

An Arlington private school has suspended one of its administrators over a Twitter message he sent to the attorney who represents porn actor Stormy Daniels. Michael Avenatti tweeted a screenshot early Monday of the message, which was sent Sunday night. In the message, Butch Groves, upper-school head of The Oakridge School in Arlington, calls Avenatti "a [expletive] douche bag" and a "lying piece of [expletive]." He has since deleted his account.

The school said Monday morning that it was "looking into" the incident and emphasized that the message was personal and not sent during work hours. Monday afternoon, the school said it had suspended Groves indefinitely. He admitted sending the message and "deeply regrets his comment," head of school Jon Kellam said in a statement.

"Oakridge employees are expected to maintain the respect, dignity and professionalism that is consistent with our mission," Jon Kellam said. "Mr. Groves' conduct was unacceptable and inconsistent with these policies and standards." Avenatti said earlier Monday that he hasn't had any other communication with the school or Groves, who he said "is not a role model for children."

The attorney, best known for representing porn star Stormy Daniels, said he gets nasty messages on a regular basis, but that only "a small percentage rise to this degree."Shortly before the message was sent, Avenatti had been tweeting about a client who he said had "credible information regarding Judge Kavanaugh and Mark Judge."
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/arlingt ... my-daniels


Butch uses his Twitter account officially as shown below... the account is gone but got lots of screenshots last night.
Butch Twitter.JPG
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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#169

Post by Orlylicious »

By the way, thought he was awful on Fox News, not a good sign. He was a cold fish, no passion like Clarence Thomas. He kept repeating the same talking points, down to the fake folksy "all I'm askin' is for a fair hearing...". Even Fox News guests are having trouble getting excited about it. Donald apparently wanted this but he's not good on TV and his poor wife was even worse. From what we've seen on Donald, not being good on TV is the kiss of death. Can't find the full interview yet, this CNN panel has some sound including one of the maybe dozen times he says "we're lookin' for a fair process..."


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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#170

Post by neeneko »

Clairez wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:43 pm
Actions have consequences. If you are going to attack someone online, you have to consider that they may attack back and the possible outcome of your own actions.

The blame for any negative outcome ultimately lies with the first attacker.
And rather importantly, if you attack someone using your official credentials, you should consider how that might come back at you. The whole point of sending from an official account is 'see, I am not just joe smoe, I am important person with title XYZ!'

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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#171

Post by Gregg »

Mikedunford wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:59 am
I don't think there is any strong expectation of privacy attached to any unsolicited message. And, again, the guy who sent it was a complete dumbass.

But I can't read Avenatti's decision to broadcast the thing - especially with the employer information highlighted - as anything other than an attempt to ruin the guy's life. And that strikes me as, to say the least, grossly disproportionate. The PM wasn't threatening and doesn't express hostility towards anyone but Avenatti. What point is made by broadcasting the thing?

It's the kind of petty, power-mad bullshit that you expect from Trump.

Avenatti does a lot of things that remind me of Trump. I only dislike him a little less because he's not ruining the country from within.
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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#172

Post by Gregg »

As far as the doxxing of the guy who said bad words.

Avenatti is a public figure, and unlike a lot of people involved in this story he actively made himself one. When you go on TV every damn night, often on several shows and networks, and while you're on you just a little aggressive in your tone towards people who may or may not deserve it, you're going to piss people off. Some of those people are going to send you mail, e-mail, PMs what have you saying how pissed off they are. Some might use words you wouldn't use in your church sermon.

Get over it. Most grown ups learn to ignore the toddlers making noise just to get attention.
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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#173

Post by Orlylicious »

My definition of doxxing is revealing the identity of someone who wishes to remain anonymous. Butch sent that filthy message under his own name from a Twitter account that listed his school. I don't think he was doxxed, he was rightfully called out. I've never, ever sent a comment like that, even anonymously. I'd be willing to bet these idiots will think twice about doing that again. But I respect other opinions.

ETA: Just posted from Michael:


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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#174

Post by TexasFilly »

Also, too, it was late on a Sunday night and I'd bet dollars to donuts that Butch had put down a few tumblers of bourbon when he sent that.

Kavanaugh was 40 when he got married I heard today. Since he was particularly testosterone infused, there's got to be many women out there that he "dated." I wonder where they all are?
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Re: Will Kavanaugh Make It Until The Hearing with Dr. Christine Blasey Ford?

#175

Post by Mr Pfister »

TexasFilly wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:37 pm
Also, too, it was late on a Sunday night and I'd bet dollars to donuts that Butch had put down a few tumblers of bourbon when he sent that.

Kavanaugh was 40 when he got married I heard today. Since he was particularly testosterone infused, there's got to be many women out there that he "dated." I wonder where they all are?
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