Kyle Rittenhouse, previous owner of a Smith & Wesson M&P15

[Dave from down under]

Grosskreutz Should have exercised his right to self defence and defence of others and put mad dog killer Kyle down.

After all a gun means you can be Judge, Jury and Executioner.

Isn’t that right Anders?

No, of course not right. Law says it has to be reasonable to believe one faces an imminent unlawful threat of death or serious bodily harm.

Kyle shot Grosskreutz!

With the gun that Kyle had just killed two people with!

Try to be consistent!

If Kyle was legally entitled to chase someone and then kill them and kill them when they responded to his threatening action (4 shots, maimed with first, then 2 to the back to make sure he was dead).

Then everyone is entitled to kill Kyle - because there is no way of knowing how many more people he would kill/maim.

After killing once - he didn’t put down his gun and try to be the combat medic he claimed to be… no he ran away with the gun and used it on others.

[raison de arizona]

Implied above is that Rittenhouse's ASVAB score was in the single digits, he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. In fact, somebunny put a spoon in the knife drawer, and then tried to utilize it as a knife. That's Rittenhouse. He's a spoon. Being used to cut something. It just doesn't work.

My point is that he was a frightened little boy with an outsized and overpowered weapon, coupled with being (let's be honest here) not very bright. The die was set.

[Dave from down under]

As he said before he did - people deserve to be shot.

So much pre-meditation…

[zekeb]

I refuse to believe someone getting a single digit ASVAB score. I would think it would take random wild wrong guesses on almost every question. It would take someone with almost zero reading comprehension. Well below the minimum might well be a score of 25. The military does grant wavers, within reason. Apparently he scored low enough that no waver could be granted. Did this guy graduate from elementary school? That should have been good enough to score at least a 31.

[raison de arizona]

I refuse to believe someone getting a single digit ASVAB score. I would think it would take random wild wrong guesses on almost every question. It would take someone with almost zero reading comprehension. Well below the minimum might well be a score of 25. The military does grant wavers, within reason. Apparently he scored low enough that no waver could be granted. Did this guy graduate from elementary school? That should have been good enough to score at least a 31.

Single digit is probably hyperbole. The number I've seen is 20, but I can't put my finger on the source at the moment. My understanding is that Rittenhouse completed through 8th grade, and dropped out in 9th. I'd have to dig around to verify those though.

[MN-Skeptic]

Dyslexia? Maybe Kyle can't read. It happens.

[Dave from down under]

Once you buy into “alternative facts”

It is very hard to pass a test based on facts.

[raison de arizona]

Dyslexia? Maybe Kyle can't read. It happens.

Rittenhouse's mother is dyslexic (New Yorker). I dunno if that is genetic, but it is certainly reasonable to assume he may be predisposed to some sort of learning disability.

[RVInit]

As he said before he did - people deserve to be shot.

So much pre-meditation…

[andersweinstein]

If Kyle was legally entitled to chase someone and then kill them and kill them when they responded to his threatening action (4 shots, maimed with first, then 2 to the back to make sure he was dead).

I think you know I don't believe Kyle was entitled to chase someone and then kill them. I think there's very little evidence for this description; I don't believe for a minute that is what happened. And I think everyone, no matter their opinion, should recognize that a jury could very easily not consider this proven on the trial evidence.

Then everyone is entitled to kill Kyle - because there is no way of knowing how many more people he would kill/maim.

Well I conceded that other people could have been justified in killing him.

However, you should understand that the people who chased him did not see what happened with Rosenbaum. They heard shouts "hey that n**r just shot someone", "get his ass", "cranium that boy". The ones that ran at him leapt into action as a mob on fairly thin evidence, IMO.

And again, manifestly he only shot people who attacked him, at the last minute as they were right upon him. He didn't shoot people who pulled up or put their hands in the air. I would say his behavior was patently defensive. All someone had to do was put their hands in the air or leave him alone. He was not behaving like someone who *wanted* to shoot people.

But if you believe they were justified in using force against him, I'm not motivated to argue the point deeply. It's irrelevant to the verdict on Rittenhouse. The only state of mind the jury instructions require the jury to assess is Rittenhouse's. It doesn't matter what motivated the others.

After killing once - he didn’t put down his gun and try to be the combat medic he claimed to be… no he ran away with the gun and used it on others.

Well he was in a difficult spot. As he sees it, he was forced to shoot an attacker in self-defense. And now he's caught out among a mob of protestors who don't know what happened but are yelling to get him and predisposed to think the worst of him. And *they* are not going to give him a fair trial! So he tried to make it toward the police line a couple of block away -- everyone knew where it was and could see the flashing lights. I think that's not unreasonable.

[zekeb]

Dyslexia? Maybe Kyle can't read. It happens.

Rittenhouse's mother is dyslexic (New Yorker). I dunno if that is genetic, but it is certainly reasonable to assume he may be predisposed to some sort of learning disability.

This might explain why he'd send a recruiter a video of himself disassembling a gun. He can't read, but by golly, he knows his guns. Unfortunately for him, functioning in the military consists of much more than just shooting a weapon.

[Dave from down under]

At anytime before killer Kyle chose to follow Rosenbaum,

Killer Kyle could have left…

But as you have admitted, he could only have been in legal possession of that long arm for hunting.

Killer Kyle was hunting that night.

[pipistrelle]

Dyslexia? Maybe Kyle can't read. It happens.

Rittenhouse's mother is dyslexic (New Yorker). I dunno if that is genetic, but it is certainly reasonable to assume he may be predisposed to some sort of learning disability.

This might explain why he'd send a recruiter a video of himself disassembling a gun. He can't read, but by golly, he knows his guns. Unfortunately for him, functioning in the military consists of much more than just shooting a weapon.

Supposedly the recruiter didn’t think this was a good look.

[Tiredretiredlawyer]

Dyslexia? Maybe Kyle can't read. It happens.

His is the profile of someone with severe dyslexia.
Gets by in elementary school.
Middle/junior high has much more difficult textbooks and more homework.
Gets frustrated, maybe laughed at or called “stupid”.
If he were homeschooled his mom didn’t know what she was dealing with thus didn’t get him the help he needed. (Same if he were in a private school.)
If he were in public school, got identified, and services were offered, he may have been too embarrassed to take advantage of them.
Drops out.

He may also suffer from an inability to write( dysgraphia), problems with numbers and math, and sensory processing disorder.

[Dave from down under]

He might also have spent too much time playing first-person shooter games then decided to play it out in real life.

[RVInit]

He might also have spent too much time playing first-person shooter games then decided to play it out in real life.

[bill_g]

What is the briefest period of time? A microsecond? An angstrom? The rotation period of an electron in a valence shell?

Whatever it is, that's how long I felt sorry for Kyle Rittenhouse. For that briefest of moments, I saw him as a very sad character, and someone I should extend some charity to.

And then that moment was over.

Sorry Kyle, but the tribe voted you out, and want to snuff your torch. GTFOOH

[andersweinstein]

But as you have admitted, he could only have been in legal possession of that long arm for hunting.

I never admitted that. The only thing I would admit is that the long-gun exception in the statute is hard to interpret. At one hearing ADA Binger offered an interpretation in which the exception only allowed for possession when engaged in the activity of hunting. But there's no text in the statute that says that anywhere. That was a somewhat free interpretation based on the supposed purpose of the exception (something for which, btw, the ADA offered zero evidence, just bare assertion).

Another more literal reading would say his possession was legal as long as he was not *violating* a couple of specified safe hunting regulations, one restricting people under 16, another requiring one to demonstrate safety training as a prerequisite to getting a hunting license. No evidence was presented that he was in violation of either of these rules, so his possession was legal on this more literal reading.

Another reading would make his possession legal if he had a hunter safety training certificate. I believe that is also a non-literal interpretation of the statutory text, but a common one.

There was also an ambiguity in the logic of the statute itself that affected the interpretation.

Ultimately I think it is very difficult to claim the text unambiguously prohibited him from possessing the rifle though not hunting. And as you know the possession charge was ultimately dismissed.

[Dave from down under]

It is an unfortunate reality that legislation is often drafted or amended to make it ineffective.

This is sometimes deliberate.

As seems often to be the case with firearm legislation in America.

Unfortunately Americans will continue to be maimed and killed because there is too much invested in maintaining or expansions of the current cultural insanity.

[andersweinstein]

It is an unfortunate reality that legislation is often drafted or amended to make it ineffective.

This is sometimes deliberate.

As seems often to be the case with firearm legislation in America.

Unfortunately Americans will continue to be maimed and killed because there is too much invested in maintaining or expansions of the current cultural insanity.

Here's how I understand the evolution of that long gun rule:

The relevant WI hunting rules -- which are civil, not criminal -- were first enacted in 1984, before the concept of "assault weapon" was a thing (or at any rate a prominent thing of widepsread public concern). And there's no question that in 1984, when first drafted, these rules left those 16 and older free to possess rifles anywhere, since the only long gun possession restrictions on the books applied to those under 16. So it appears to me they decided in this state with large rural element at that time that 16 was old enough to possess a long gun, thinking of sporting type rifles and shotguns. Which is not very surprising. There are many states that have no age restrictions on long gun possession at all.

And WI allows those 16 and older to hunt alone; if nothing else, this rule allows those kids to transport their weapons to the hunting area without any special exception.

Later on, in 1991, they expanded their criminal ban on minor possession of dangerous weapons from handguns only to include a variety of other weapons. I think at that time the criminal law just tried to incorporate by reference the pre-existing rules on long guns that were in the hunting code. So, now violations of those rules became criminal misdemeanors for the first time. But (I believe) they didn't intend to change the rules. They still believed that rifles were in general not too dangerous for 16 year-olds to possess unless hunting without safety training.

So I think what we see here is just a law passed some time ago when it seemed reasonable to them that 16 year olds, on a farm, perhaps, or heading hunting, should be allowed to possess rifles, and persisting on the books.

[Dave from down under]

And so Killer Kyle went hunting that night

[Suranis]

Remember how many people successfully claim self defense when shooting someone in the back due to the "castle doctrine."

Does not change the fact that they are deliberate cold blooded killers like Kyle the hunter.

[Dave from down under]

Decriminalising murder is the wet (work) dream of these gun advocates.

It is all about being able to intimidate and hurt/kill others.

[RVInit]

Decriminalising murder is the wet (work) dream of these gun advocates.

It is all about being able to intimidate and hurt/kill others.

[andersweinstein]

I refuse to believe someone getting a single digit ASVAB score. I would think it would take random wild wrong guesses on almost every question. It would take someone with almost zero reading comprehension. Well below the minimum might well be a score of 25. The military does grant wavers, within reason. Apparently he scored low enough that no waver could be granted. Did this guy graduate from elementary school? That should have been good enough to score at least a 31.

For anyone interested, a couple of details about ASVAB scores:

- While several subscores come out of the ASVAB, the main reported composite score, called the AFQT for Armed Forces Qualification Test, is a percentile rank, normed against the scores of a reference group of 18-23 year-old test-takers from 1997. So 50 is the average, with half of those test-takers scoring above, half below. It is not a percentage correct.

- The Army (also Navy) allows those without a high school diploma or GED (Rittenhouse's situation at time of test) to enlist only if they score 50 or over. Looks to me like the Marines do not waive the HS diploma requirement for any score.

So Rittenhouse would not have been able to enlist unless he could score better than 50% of the reference group of test-takers.