The death penalty
-
- Posts: 980
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:11 am
Re: The death penalty
I probably wasnt as clear as I meant to be. I am absolutely against the death penalty. I am still haunted after reading about Todd Willingham in Texas. My point was, if we cant stop the death penalty, why cant this be done more humanely? I guess because it really comes down to cruelty.
Re: The death penalty
I can't accept the death penalty because it kills people. If killing someone is wrong, why are states doing it?
You can't wait until life isn't hard anymore before you decide to be happy.
Re: The death penalty
Possibly there is no humane way to do an inhumane thing.
Re: The death penalty
I've read that the Guillotine was developed as a humane alternative to hanging.
Hic sunt dracones
- Sam the Centipede
- Posts: 2175
- Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:19 pm
Re: The death penalty
While being opposed to death penalties, I find it difficult to get very concerned about whether methods are humane or not. If you're planning to kill somebody, whether you kill them painlessly or painfully seems (to me) almost irrelevant. Of course, being happy to kill people painfully says something about those doing or supporting the killing, but again, it's the killing that seems to me to be the ethical issue.
Or, tipping it on its head, this argument doesn't fly: "you're planning on killing somebody painfully? that's appalling!"; "no, it will be painless"; "oh, that's ok then, it's the pain aspect I was bothered about."
Of course, others are entitled to see it differently. And the recent botched executions are illustrations of the vileness of Republicans and their delight in hurting those they don't identify with.
Or, tipping it on its head, this argument doesn't fly: "you're planning on killing somebody painfully? that's appalling!"; "no, it will be painless"; "oh, that's ok then, it's the pain aspect I was bothered about."
Of course, others are entitled to see it differently. And the recent botched executions are illustrations of the vileness of Republicans and their delight in hurting those they don't identify with.
- LM K
- Posts: 3144
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:44 pm
- Location: Oregon
- Occupation: Professor Shrinky Lady, brainwashing young adults daily!
- Contact:
Re: The death penalty
If we were able to find ways to execute people humanely, we wouldn't develop more methods of execution.Patagoniagirl wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:56 am I probably wasnt as clear as I meant to be. I am absolutely against the death penalty. I am still haunted after reading about Todd Willingham in Texas. My point was, if we cant stop the death penalty, why cant this be done more humanely? I guess because it really comes down to cruelty.
We will never find a humane way to kill people. Even if we found a painless, quick, and error free way to execute people, the psychology of death row and pending execution is inhumane. But that's another discussion.
The least painful methods of execution are just too gruesome for spectators.
If I were to be executed, I'd choose the guillotine. Little human error, quick, and painless if done properly. But it's gruesome. We don't want to disturb witnesses sensibilities.
The error rate for lethal injection is 7.1%*. We must abolish lethal injection.
*The stat could be higher. Unless we attach a heart monitor and scalp electrodes on the condemned, we have no way of knowing if the condemned is suffering yet unable to demonstrate suffering.
"The jungle is no place for a cellist."
From "Take the Money and Run"
From "Take the Money and Run"
- keith
- Posts: 4284
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:23 pm
- Location: The Swamp in Victorian Oz
- Occupation: Retired Computer Systems Analyst Project Manager Super Coder
- Verified: ✅lunatic
Re: The death penalty
Yeah, but they only started Australia because they lost access to Georgia.
Be assured that a walk through the ocean of most souls Would scarcely get your feet wet
-
- Posts: 980
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:11 am
Re: The death penalty
Dont some countries have assisted suicide? Yes. And the articles I have read and interviews with family members describe the process as peaceful. Of course assisted suicide is a choice.
Do veterinarians provide peaceful ends for horses and other pets? Sure they do.
The legal system is fraught with failures which are sometimes corrected, but too many times not. The chances of putting an innocent person to death- any chance, is unacceptable to me. But as long as that is what the law finds just, as least treat people as one would the family dog or beloved horse.
Slightly off topic:
A few decades ago, our much loved veterinarian in a small community closed his office for the day, put on a diaper, and pajamas, and inserted two IV bags with a drug concoction in them, laid down on a table and quietly left the world.
Also, not too many years ago, despite hospice care, I watched in absolute despair and angst as my loved one STRUGGLED and gasped for hours and hours before he took his last breath. I am haunted to this day, and probably always will be. I was convinced that had he/we known, he would have chosen a different path. I know I will if I see incapacitation in a near future. It was horrible.
People shouldn't suffer.
Forgive me the lack of proper formatting, etc. I have a small cell phone only, with a cracked screen land no skills when it comes to doing all that stuff.
Do veterinarians provide peaceful ends for horses and other pets? Sure they do.
The legal system is fraught with failures which are sometimes corrected, but too many times not. The chances of putting an innocent person to death- any chance, is unacceptable to me. But as long as that is what the law finds just, as least treat people as one would the family dog or beloved horse.
Slightly off topic:
A few decades ago, our much loved veterinarian in a small community closed his office for the day, put on a diaper, and pajamas, and inserted two IV bags with a drug concoction in them, laid down on a table and quietly left the world.
Also, not too many years ago, despite hospice care, I watched in absolute despair and angst as my loved one STRUGGLED and gasped for hours and hours before he took his last breath. I am haunted to this day, and probably always will be. I was convinced that had he/we known, he would have chosen a different path. I know I will if I see incapacitation in a near future. It was horrible.
People shouldn't suffer.
Forgive me the lack of proper formatting, etc. I have a small cell phone only, with a cracked screen land no skills when it comes to doing all that stuff.
- MsDaisy
- Posts: 850
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:30 am
- Location: Virginia
- Occupation: Retired Medic
- Verified: ✅
Re: The death penalty
I absolutely believe that facing a horrible and painful death everyone should have the option to just say, "Check Please" and have it over.
Re: The death penalty
The drugs used for suicide and euthanasia aren't licensed for use in executions, or for resale to those would use them for that purpose.
-
- Posts: 980
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:11 am
Re: The death penalty
Interviews with three executioners. Gripping and sad.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/ ... J7-LFujdSA
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/ ... J7-LFujdSA
Re: The death penalty
NPR: The Supreme Court reimposes a death sentence for the Boston bomber:
The U.S. Supreme Court has reinstated the death penalty for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, the convicted Boston Marathon bomber. The vote, in a decision issued Friday, was 6-3 with the court's liberals issuing a relatively subdued dissent.
* * *
The trial judge blocked the defense from presenting evidence to the jury showing that [his older brother] Tamerlan had, two years before the bombing, slit the throats of three men in Waltham, Mass., in an act of jihad on the anniversary of the 9/11 attack. The defense argued that this mitigating evidence may have convinced that jury to spare Tsarnaev's life, and a federal appeals court agreed.
On Friday, the Supreme Court reversed the appeals court and reinstated Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's death sentence.
Despite the decision, Tsarnaev will not be executed anytime soon. The Trump administration, in its waning days in office, ended a federal execution moratorium and executed 13 men sentenced to death on federal charges. But the Biden administration, has restarted the moratorium so that the Justice Department can conduct a thorough review of the department's policies and procedures.
- raison de arizona
- Posts: 20219
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:21 am
- Location: Nothing, Arizona
- Occupation: bit twiddler
- Verified: ✔️ he/him/his
Re: The death penalty
This is who Brnovich is hot to kill to get an execution under his belt for the Senate race.
https://twitter.com/helenprejean/status ... 9459060736Sister Helen Prejean @helenprejean wrote: Arizona has set a May 11th execution date for Clarence Dixon. He has 20 days to decide between lethal injection and the gas chamber. Clarence is 65 years old, blind, physically disabled, and suffers with severe schizophrenia
Clarence was convicted for the 1977 murder of ASU student Deana Bowdoin. It was a terrible crime. There's a back story, though, that reveals a series of societal failures that led up to this horrible act of violence committed by a man who was not in his right mind.
Clarence grew up on the Navajo Nation. His father was addicted to painkillers and viciously abused Clarence, his six siblings, and their mother. The neglect was so severe that Clarence was forced to eat dog food just to survive as a child.
Clarence began experiencing severe mental illness at a young age. In a prior criminal case, state doctors diagnosed him with schizophrenia and found him incompetent. This led then-Maricopa County trial judge Sandra Day O'Connor to find him not guilty by reason of insanity.
Then-Judge O'Connor directed the State of Arizona to immediately initiate civil commitment proceedings so Clarence would not be released back into the community without any supervision. The State failed to take action. Two days later, Deana Bowdoin was killed.
Clarence fired all his attorneys and represented himself at his death penalty trial. The jury never knew that he was legally insane at the time of the murder. No information about Clarence's background was presented in support of a life sentence.
“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
Re: The death penalty
Very sad case.
"Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a coward is to be controlled by all that the coward fears… To be led by a liar is to ask to be told lies." -Octavia E. Butler
- John Thomas8
- Posts: 6001
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:42 pm
- Location: Central NC
- Occupation: Tech Support
Re: The death penalty
It applied appalling horribly.
I've altered my thoughts after encountering the Todd Willingham story.
There's a set of individuals that are not redeemable, ones like Ted Bundy or Gacy, etc. Then there's everyone else, subject to malfeasance, bias, inept representation, that I cant' see execution being the proper response.
I've altered my thoughts after encountering the Todd Willingham story.
There's a set of individuals that are not redeemable, ones like Ted Bundy or Gacy, etc. Then there's everyone else, subject to malfeasance, bias, inept representation, that I cant' see execution being the proper response.
- raison de arizona
- Posts: 20219
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:21 am
- Location: Nothing, Arizona
- Occupation: bit twiddler
- Verified: ✔️ he/him/his
Re: The death penalty
Sorry, no takesy-backsies. Sorry, gotta kill ya, procedure ya see. Nothing to be done.
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/21 ... -gonzalez/Texas judge won’t let prosecutor cancel scheduled execution of John Ramirez
Nueces County District Attorney Mark Gonzalez said he is ethically opposed to the death penalty, but an employee wrongfully requested the execution date against his wishes. Gonzalez sought to cancel the execution two days later.
A Texas state district judge on Tuesday rejected a prosecutor’s request to cancel the scheduled October execution of John Ramirez, whose death last year was halted in part of a yearslong back-and-forth between the Texas prison system and the U.S. Supreme Court over religious rights of condemned prisoners.
Nueces County District Attorney Mark Gonzalez sought to have the execution canceled, saying one of his employees wrongfully asked a court to set the date in April, after the nation’s high court directed the state prison system to let the prisoner’s pastor touch and pray over him at his execution. Gonzalez said he is ethically opposed to the death penalty and did not want an execution warrant for Ramirez issued.
Along with Ramirez’s defense attorney, he sought to withdraw the new execution date two days after it was requested.
But in a Zoom hearing Tuesday, state District Judge Bobby Galvan said Gonzalez is “the captain of the ship,” and what his staff does is on him.
“I’ve really thought about this a lot,” Galvan said. “I respect y’all’s opinion on this, but I’m not going to withdraw the warrant.”
Gonzalez argued that, as the county’s elected prosecutor, he has the authority to request the cancellation.
“The main issues in this motion, your honor, are that the only legitimate voice for the state of Texas would be my office,” he said.
After the ruling, Ramirez’s attorney, Seth Kretzer, said it was unprecedented for a judge to deny a motion to withdraw a death warrant that has the support of the prosecution and the defense.
“Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” —John Adams
Re: The death penalty
Not sure that this is quite the place to put this, but...
https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/24/europe/j ... index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/24/europe/j ... index.html
Spain almost certainly does not have a death penalty.Spanish prison authorities on Tuesday euthanized a man who shot and wounded four people in December and was subsequently wounded in a shootout with the police, rendering him paralyzed and begging to be allowed to die while awaiting trial.
Courts allowed the man’s assisted death after rejecting several appeals by his victims, who argued he should face justice. The case even reached the Constitutional Court, which refused to deliberate on it, saying there had been no violation of fundamental rights.
Spain passed a law permitting euthanasia on Thursday for people with serious, chronic illness, no chance of recovery and unbearable suffering.
Disgruntled former security guard Eugen Sabau, 46, shot three of his colleagues, including a woman, at the security services firm where he worked in the northeastern city of Tarragona, and then wounded a police officer while making his escape.
Sabau died at 6.30 p.m. local time Tuesday, according to a source from the Catalan regional government.
The prison authorities were unavailable for comment and Sabau’s lawyer did not comment.
Spain legalized euthanasia just over a year ago. Prior to this, helping someone to end their life carried a jail term of up to 10 years.
After Sabau barricaded himself in a house with an arsenal of weapons, a tactical police unit stormed the place, shooting him several times.
"Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a coward is to be controlled by all that the coward fears… To be led by a liar is to ask to be told lies." -Octavia E. Butler
- RTH10260
- Posts: 16706
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:16 am
- Location: Switzerland, near the Alps
- Verified: ✔️ Eurobot
Re: The death penalty
This is surely not "a death penalty case".
This is what is accepted thruout Europe in many countries as assisted death. The person seeking to die must always be fully conscious and confirm their death wish. Sometimes thru formal channels, sometimes just convince a supervising doctor. That doctor is usually forbidden to prescribe the necessary medicine himself. Eg in Switzerland a person with a death wish will chose a specialized hospice. Nurses will prepare the medicine and leave the person alone. The person will take the medicine at the moment of their choice.
This is what is accepted thruout Europe in many countries as assisted death. The person seeking to die must always be fully conscious and confirm their death wish. Sometimes thru formal channels, sometimes just convince a supervising doctor. That doctor is usually forbidden to prescribe the necessary medicine himself. Eg in Switzerland a person with a death wish will chose a specialized hospice. Nurses will prepare the medicine and leave the person alone. The person will take the medicine at the moment of their choice.
Re: The death penalty
There are also a few states here in the US that allow this. The timing of a man waiting for trial was what struck me as a little strange, but I know very little about the case.
"Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a coward is to be controlled by all that the coward fears… To be led by a liar is to ask to be told lies." -Octavia E. Butler
- pipistrelle
- Posts: 7802
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:27 am
- RTH10260
- Posts: 16706
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:16 am
- Location: Switzerland, near the Alps
- Verified: ✔️ Eurobot
Re: The death penalty
Re-reading above snippet, the court did grant him the death wish. IMHO that means that his condition was so bad that a court trial was impossible. My best guess is there were pain management issues, apart from possible 24/7 nurse care.
- roadscholar
- Posts: 823
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:17 am
- Location: Baltimore
- Occupation: Renaissance Mechanic
- Contact:
Re: The death penalty
I’m agnostic on the penalty, but have often wondered if the best way wouldn’t be full general anesthesia followed by wheeling the prisoner into a freezer.
The bitterest truth is more wholesome than the sweetest lie.
-
- Posts: 980
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:11 am
Re: The death penalty
I never questioned my opposition to the death penalty, especially after reading the entire Willingham case. After my step-daughter's mother's murder has recently been solved, I find myself conflicted. Forty damned years for her to suffer and try to find some solace and healing has just ripped a new whole mess and a myriad of emotions. I haven't asked her about it. I'll wait for her. She was only seven years old and she was severely emotionally crippled by all of it, for FORTY years.
But then,.there was Todd Willingham.
But then,.there was Todd Willingham.
Re: The death penalty
And, sadly, others.Patagoniagirl wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:02 pm I never questioned my opposition to the death penalty, especially after reading the entire Willingham case. After my step-daughter's mother's murder has recently been solved, I find myself conflicted. Forty damned years for her to suffer and try to find some solace and healing has just ripped a new whole mess and a myriad of emotions. I haven't asked her about it. I'll wait for her. She was only seven years old and she was severely emotionally crippled by all of it, for FORTY years.
But then,.there was Todd Willingham.
"Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a coward is to be controlled by all that the coward fears… To be led by a liar is to ask to be told lies." -Octavia E. Butler
Re: The death penalty
I was ambivalent about the death penalty until I read McKleskey v. Kemp in law school. I don’t remember the stats, but the upshot was that after accounting for all the variables that could explain the disparity, Blacks we’re still 10 times more likely to get the death penalty than whites. The Supreme Court was like, meh, racism is inevitable.
If racism is inevitable, we should err on the side of not executing people because of the color of their skin.
If racism is inevitable, we should err on the side of not executing people because of the color of their skin.
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson